How to Forgive....

[Elijah2]

Moriah,

You said this: Sad to say, sometimes people on CF delude themselves into thinking they can crawl inside your mind or heart and pass judgment on the contents of either one when they haven't a clue.

I resent you accusations, and at the same time I resent you attitude, which is obviously directed toward me.

I am one person who would love to see you set free from captivity, but as usual, you bite the hand that feeds you.

Maybe, I misunderstood Tsadde, but that doesn’t give you the right to pour your unforgiving heart into a thread that is trying to help others, by your deliberate inferences and innuendoes by accusing me of destructive work., and tormenting them and lob mud clots and "nyah nyah"s at other people and hide behind this smokescreen of pointing fingers at everyone else and so the fiery darts of nasty ugly judgments and despicable insinuations and more self-loathing and self-doubt and self-hate can be fired straight in where they can do the most damage and then say then they will report you to staff as flaming and try to get you kicked off the board!

Now come on Moriah, when was all of these inferences of yours EVER expressed on this thread, or any thread since you returned only a few weeks ago.

All your comments indicates a person who suffers terribly from “self-pity”.

What is destructive in what has been said between Tsadde and myself, which is posted below?

Who is throwing mud clots?

Who is hiding behind smokescreen and pointing fingers?

Who is throwing fiery darts and making ugly judgement?

Then most of all, who is reporting you and trying to get you kicked off the board?

You make all these inferences, and innuendoes, against those who are trying to help you. And no doubt those comments of yours are directed toward me.

Please explain, as you have spread your inferences and innuendoes over this thread


This is what was said between Tsadde and myself.

Elijah2 said:
Our Lord Jesus Christ made the forgiveness of our sins conditional upon our willingness to forgive the sins of others, alive or dead, and to love them. He doesn’t just forgive us because we have forgiven others, but solely because of His great mercy.

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:14,15)!

These are consuming words that confront us continually, because most of us have anger, bitterness and hatred in an unforgiving heart. At times our pride doesn’t like to be told that our sins would not be forgiven, and we could say, “Who does HE think HE is?”

At times our complacency tend to make us believe that it doesn't matter what we believe, or what we do, because our Lord Jesus Christ is so loving that He wouldn't withhold forgiveness from us, or not allow us to enter His Kingdom. Such beliefs are not consistent with Scripture.

Due to much lack of understanding and knowledge of His Word, and sometimes complacency it becomes a challenge for us to tell ourself this uncompromising truth, and we can perish for this lack of understanding and knowledge.

We know, who we are in our Lord Jesus Christ, and He who is in us, via the Holy Spirit, will show those things that we need to face and handle. Deep down in us are many hurts and all our Lord Jesus Christ wants to do for us, is to cleanse us, and heal us from “any root of bitterness that will spring up from our heart causing further trouble” (see Heb. 12:15).

Bitterness is like a small root that grows into a large tree, which springs up in our heart and overshadows even our deepest relationship with others; it affects our “soul” deep down. A “bitter root” can be formed from simple hurts and offences that turn into disappointments, then into resentfulness, and then into anger as we nurture our hurts and offences. Any form of abuse takes this even further and deeper into our “soul”.

Our Lord Jesus Christ gave us a staggering warning about ‘forgiveness”, and if we refuse to forgive others, then He said that He will also refuse to forgive us.

Our Lord Jesus Christ's forgiveness of sin is not the direct result of our forgiving others, but it is based on our own realisation what really forgiveness means.

When we ask our Lord Jesus Christ to forgive us for our sins, and we should also ask Him to show us all those people who we haven’t forgiven, who had hurt, offended, wronged and abused us.

Whatever we may think or believe, we need to know that we have to forgive those people who have sinned against us, because our forgiveness is essential to our “Freedom in Christ”.

Through our forgiveness, it will remove those spiritual blocks placed there by Satan and his forces that have been robbing us from our blessings. Once the word of forgiveness is spoken aloud in open prayer, Satan's power that had been controlling us through our sin of unforgiveness will be broken, and then our steps to our “Freedom in Christ” can begin to take place.

There are a number of steps, and as we walk through the steps to our “Freedom in Christ” it will enable us to “heal our broken hearts”, “be set free from captivity”, “be healed of sicknesses and infirmities”, and “cast out our demons”.

Would you like to know those steps?


Tsadde said:
What is forgetting? If I forgive Hitler for what he did to my family do I deny the halocaust ever happened? Do I somehow blot out those years from my memory?


Elijah2 said:
Forgiveness has got nothing to do with "denying". Forgiveness is letting it all go and love those who hurt and abused you.

Of course you remember, BUT---when you can finally say that you love those people, then you will "remember no more".

If any Christian has really learnt to forgive, then Corris Ten Boom is the finest example of forgiveness and love.

Read her story, because she was there in the "Holocaust".

Tsadde said:
Obviously Ten Boom did not forget after she forgave the man for here she is writing about him and his crime for all to read.

Nevertheless it is a fine story of forgiveness.

I have been told that forgiving someone means we never ever mention it again. I question that. If that were the case would forgiving someone also preclude warning others about them?

Elijah2 said:
I am sorry T, but you (appear to) have a doubting spirit, which is no wonder you are so confused about forgiveness.

Corrie Ten Boom is sharing it with others so that they can understand what forgiveness is.

When you forgive and love that person, you will never DOUBT AGAIN!

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Elijah2, for the millionth time, speaking out of the generalities of its own experience does not constitute an attempt to get a personal dig in at you. Sorry if you feel this way, but after having explained this for at least the third time this week, Moriah will no longer count it her responsibility to do so. From now on, if you wish to draw that inference, you will be entirely on your own. It has several times told you already, this bes not the case. However, neither will it be manipulated into silence concerning its views or its experience just because sharing them risks someone making this type of mistake. From now on, if you insist upon interpreting Moriah's statements about its general experience with CF as some type of personal dig against you, you will have to be entirely alone with that. Moriah will no longer permit you or anyone else to make that her problem.

If Moriah's posts upset and provoke you that much to be such a great stumbling stone then by all means, please just put Moriah on ignore and be at peace.

 

[Tsadde]

I am sorry T, but you have a doubting spirit, which is no wonder you are so confused about forgiveness.

Corrie Ten Boom is sharing it with others so that they can understand what forgiveness is.

When you forgive and love that person, you will never DOUBT AGAIN!

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

Sorry, Bro. Just not feelin' the love here. I feel like you have judged and condemned me because I disagreed with you that forgiveness means that a memory of pain disappears literally. You clarified your position somewhat in the last post and I appreciate that.

However, saying that I "have a doubting spirit" (what's that? demon possession?) and that I am "so confused about forgiveness" is, I believe, overstepping your authority. I feel you are also implying by the phrase, "never DOUBT AGAIN!" that I lack faith in Jesus Christ or that He has enabled me to forgive.

Part of the forgiving process is to admit that one has been caused unwarranted pain. It is not glossing it over and saying that "that didn't hurt."

Elijah2 Sir, you have hurt me. In fact you have hurt me several times on this board by judging and condemning my beliefs as "false" and implying that the discernment that the Lord has given me is inferior to yours. I have chosen to ignore these offences as being trivial, but they are accumulating.


I forgive you.



I require nothing in the way of explanation or apology from you. You are forgiven. I can do this because My identity is in Christ Jesus and I in no way need your approval.

May the Lord bless you and may you be able to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fulness of God.

Tsadde

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Part of the forgiving process is to admit that one has been caused unwarranted pain. It is not glossing it over and saying that "that didn't hurt."

[.....] you have hurt me. In fact you have hurt me several times on this board by judging and condemning my beliefs as "false" and implying that the discernment that the Lord has given me is inferior to yours. I have chosen to ignore these offences as being trivial, but they are accumulating.

Disclaimer: this has nothing to do with the specific personalities involved here in this specific post.

There comes a point where after hearing the same thing from many people, especially when hearing it from those one cannot glibly dismiss as having some sort of "agenda", one ought to stop telling oneself they ALL err somehow and OUGHT to start telling oneself, "time to change my ways."

Chalking up every piece of non-flattering feedback to being "persecuted for Christ" won't cut it with the honest soul, with the person who cannot help but be totally honest with themselves. Eventually they will be forced to recognize that these people cannot ALL be opposing them, ignoring them, or giving them uncomfortable feedback because THEY bes SOOOOO righteous that everyone just foams at the mouth wanting to put them down. Um, sorry, no, not how the real world works. More likely than not they have played the pompous self-exonerating clueless git, and their "persecution" comes not because they bes sooooo righteous and holy and Christlike but because they have made donkeys of themselves.

In other words, it bes no persecution for Christ's dear and holy sake, but simply creaturely dislike of arrogance, stuck-up pride, and other unseemly attitudes pretending to masquerade as religiosity.

Have had to face that one on numerous occasions -- but to daimonizomai's credit it HAS faced it, and done so honestly. Pity the poor souls who simply refuse, who live in such cowardice, pride, and fear that they cannot afford to permit themselves to see themselves in anything but the most spiritually flattering light. (And as always, if this shoe don't fit you, dear reader, do NOT cram your toes into it painfully and then blame the one who presented it for consideration.)

Again, for those who missed it, expressing this thought has NOTHING TO DO WITH specific individual personalities involved in making the preceding posts.

 

[razzelflabben]

Sad to say, sometimes people on CF delude themselves into thinking they can crawl inside your mind or heart and pass judgment on the contents of either one when they haven't a clue. And unfortunately often these "birds of a feather" find one another and flock together, supporting and reinforcing one another's destructive work on this site to drive seeking souls in need of God further and further from Him by setting these obstacles in their path for them to stumble over and then sitting back and launching intense discussions about the nature of forgiveness just as another method of tormenting them. Most of the time people who launch these discussions don't give a toss about the true nature of the topic; they simply want to use certain topics as a screen from behind which to lob mud clots and "nyah nyah"s at other people. Instead of doing what would be right in the eyes of God and fessing up to their own crimes against others, they hide behind this smokescreen of pointing fingers at everyone else for their presumed "lack of forgiveness". They use topics like these as lure and bait to get people to OPEN their hearts -- take off the armor and open up -- so the fiery darts of nasty ugly judgments and despicable insinuations and more self-loathing and self-doubt and self-hate can be fired straight in where they can do the most damage.

Best thing to do with a tar baby: don't pick it up. Run, do not walk, as far from it as you can get. Unfortunately most of these tar babies have "legs" and will follow you around taking rotten little potshots until you give them the "what for" they deserve -- then they will report you to staff as flaming and try to get you kicked off the board. This crap has been going on for far too long. Downright sick of it.

I for one have always enjoyed your posts and straight forward approach. Don't know what all the rest is about, but I do appreciate you a great deal.

 

[razzelflabben]

Moriah,

You said this: Sad to say, sometimes people on CF delude themselves into thinking they can crawl inside your mind or heart and pass judgment on the contents of either one when they haven't a clue.

I resent you accusations, and at the same time I resent you attitude, which is obviously directed toward me.

I am one person who would love to see you set free from captivity, but as usual, you bite the hand that feeds you.

Maybe, I misunderstood Tsadde, but that doesn’t give you the right to pour your unforgiving heart into a thread that is trying to help others, by your deliberate inferences and innuendoes by accusing me of destructive work., and tormenting them and lob mud clots and "nyah nyah"s at other people and hide behind this smokescreen of pointing fingers at everyone else and so the fiery darts of nasty ugly judgments and despicable insinuations and more self-loathing and self-doubt and self-hate can be fired straight in where they can do the most damage and then say then they will report you to staff as flaming and try to get you kicked off the board!

Now come on Moriah, when was all of these inferences of yours EVER expressed on this thread, or any thread since you returned only a few weeks ago.

All your comments indicates a person who suffers terribly from “self-pity”.

What is destructive in what has been said between Tsadde and myself, which is posted below?

Who is throwing mud clots?

Who is hiding behind smokescreen and pointing fingers?

Who is throwing fiery darts and making ugly judgement?

Then most of all, who is reporting you and trying to get you kicked off the board?

You make all these inferences, and innuendoes, against those who are trying to help you. And no doubt those comments of yours are directed toward me.

Please explain, as you have spread your inferences and innuendoes over this thread


This is what was said between Tsadde and myself.

Elijah2 said:
Our Lord Jesus Christ made the forgiveness of our sins conditional upon our willingness to forgive the sins of others, alive or dead, and to love them. He doesn’t just forgive us because we have forgiven others, but solely because of His great mercy.

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matt. 6:14,15)!

These are consuming words that confront us continually, because most of us have anger, bitterness and hatred in an unforgiving heart. At times our pride doesn’t like to be told that our sins would not be forgiven, and we could say, “Who does HE think HE is?”

At times our complacency tend to make us believe that it doesn't matter what we believe, or what we do, because our Lord Jesus Christ is so loving that He wouldn't withhold forgiveness from us, or not allow us to enter His Kingdom. Such beliefs are not consistent with Scripture.

Due to much lack of understanding and knowledge of His Word, and sometimes complacency it becomes a challenge for us to tell ourself this uncompromising truth, and we can perish for this lack of understanding and knowledge.

We know, who we are in our Lord Jesus Christ, and He who is in us, via the Holy Spirit, will show those things that we need to face and handle. Deep down in us are many hurts and all our Lord Jesus Christ wants to do for us, is to cleanse us, and heal us from “any root of bitterness that will spring up from our heart causing further trouble” (see Heb. 12:15).

Bitterness is like a small root that grows into a large tree, which springs up in our heart and overshadows even our deepest relationship with others; it affects our “soul” deep down. A “bitter root” can be formed from simple hurts and offences that turn into disappointments, then into resentfulness, and then into anger as we nurture our hurts and offences. Any form of abuse takes this even further and deeper into our “soul”.

Our Lord Jesus Christ gave us a staggering warning about ‘forgiveness”, and if we refuse to forgive others, then He said that He will also refuse to forgive us.

Our Lord Jesus Christ's forgiveness of sin is not the direct result of our forgiving others, but it is based on our own realisation what really forgiveness means.

When we ask our Lord Jesus Christ to forgive us for our sins, and we should also ask Him to show us all those people who we haven’t forgiven, who had hurt, offended, wronged and abused us.

Whatever we may think or believe, we need to know that we have to forgive those people who have sinned against us, because our forgiveness is essential to our “Freedom in Christ”.

Through our forgiveness, it will remove those spiritual blocks placed there by Satan and his forces that have been robbing us from our blessings. Once the word of forgiveness is spoken aloud in open prayer, Satan's power that had been controlling us through our sin of unforgiveness will be broken, and then our steps to our “Freedom in Christ” can begin to take place.

There are a number of steps, and as we walk through the steps to our “Freedom in Christ” it will enable us to “heal our broken hearts”, “be set free from captivity”, “be healed of sicknesses and infirmities”, and “cast out our demons”.

Would you like to know those steps?


Tsadde said:
What is forgetting? If I forgive Hitler for what he did to my family do I deny the halocaust ever happened? Do I somehow blot out those years from my memory?


Elijah2 said:
Forgiveness has got nothing to do with "denying". Forgiveness is letting it all go and love those who hurt and abused you.

Of course you remember, BUT---when you can finally say that you love those people, then you will "remember no more".

If any Christian has really learnt to forgive, then Corris Ten Boom is the finest example of forgiveness and love.

Read her story, because she was there in the "Holocaust".

Tsadde said:
Obviously Ten Boom did not forget after she forgave the man for here she is writing about him and his crime for all to read.

Nevertheless it is a fine story of forgiveness.

I have been told that forgiving someone means we never ever mention it again. I question that. If that were the case would forgiving someone also preclude warning others about them?

Elijah2 said:
I am sorry T, but you (appear to) have a doubting spirit, which is no wonder you are so confused about forgiveness.

Corrie Ten Boom is sharing it with others so that they can understand what forgiveness is.

When you forgive and love that person, you will never DOUBT AGAIN!

I don't want to get into the middle of some fight here, but I gotta ask, why should any of us presume to be helping anyone else to learn to forgive? Isn't God the one who works in and through us? Isn't God the one who convicts hearts and sets them free? Isn't the spirit led person guided in word and deed by the Spirit Himself? Why all the talk about helping anyone, shouldn't we be concerned with serving God and letting God help those who choose Him? I guess I'm just more confused than before, when I speak to anyone on behalf of my Lord, the goal is not to help them, but rather to honor my King by being obedient to what He wants to speak through me and if that aids someone, the glory then is God's not mine.

 

[Angeloffire]

God sent His only Son to die for our sins. Then, after paying for all our mistakes that we hadn't even made yet, Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for us.

He sent the Holy Spirit to teach and guide us.

No where does it say that we must 'fix' each other.

There are alot of accusations floating on this thread, even if they were all true, what good does it do to point it out. Are we going to proport ourselves as God and save mankind?

Standing on top of someone else after they are knocked down, really does not make one any taller.

We all have faults as is very evident by us all. We weren't asked by God to find fault with each other or to even defend ourselves.

We were asked to love each other as He loved us. He died for us. That is the love of God.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Generally most cases of rift between two parties come from the failure to love on the part of one being perceived instead of overlooked on the part of the other, generally not because the other wishes to be harsh and exacting but because this refusal and withholding of common decency hurts and leaves an undeniable mark.

Now, it has been suggested numerous times on this thread that no one has the "right" to expect others to actually DO this loving as it has now been suggested God commands us to DO toward one another. Well we cannot have it both ways. Either God tells us to love one another and that means something, or it does not. If it does, we should start doing what He says and stop pretending if we happen to fail that the "fault" suddenly shifts to the one we hurt to forgive US. If it means nothing, then we ought not invoke God's command for us to love one another as part of seeking to convince others they have a duty to forgive US.

Very interesting, though, how both these flipflopping positions have one central thing in common: they make it all about one getting whatever one thinks one wants or needs from others, while conveniently castigating others for ever daring to want or think they "need" anything from anyone else but God. Sounds like a good long look in the mirror bes long overdue here for someone.

 

[Christina M]

We are to forgive as God does - when there is repentance.

He says we are to forgive 70 x 7, when our brother repents.

The first step, of course, is to stop the harm. The hurtful actions must cease, the violence or destruction or exploitation must end, before forgiveness is appropriate.

The second is acknowledgement. The person who has committed an act of harm must acknowledge that they’ve done so, and be willing to hear and listen to the effects of their actions.

The third is repentance. The wrongdoer must regret the act and be willing to change. An apology is also in order—and a wise person once defined an apology as “something that actually makes the person you’ve hurt feel better.” An apology is not an excuse, a justification, a comparison to others who perhaps have done more odious things, or a new, veiled attack on the person you’ve harmed. An apology is not, “Why are you making such a big deal about this?” or “Here’s what you did to me” or “She hit me first!” It’s some variation of “I’m truly sorry, and I won’t do it again.”

The fourth is making amends—The wrongdoer must accept responsibility and do whatever he or she can to alleviate the harm, repair the damage, restore what has been taken or destroyed. If this requires the wrongdoer to make some sacrifices or suffer some losses, that’s part of taking responsibility.

Unless these four conditions have been met, forgiveness can be premature and become a form of collusion. For example: Women are constantly being asked to forgive abusers. But unless the abuse is stopped, and the abuser acknowledges, repents, and makes amends for the harm he or she has done, calls for premature forgiveness are a form of victim-blaming that compound the damage.

For the Christian, forgiveness is an unconditional requirement -- turn the other cheek, forgive your enemies, etc. But for there to be genuine reconciliation, repentance is necessary. If the person who has wronged you or wronged others is sincerely willing to transform his behavior in the future, then there can be a genuine and lasting healing.

"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."
Luke 17:3-4

 

[brinny]

I don't want to get into the middle of some fight here, but I gotta ask, why should any of us presume to be helping anyone else to learn to forgive? Isn't God the one who works in and through us? Isn't God the one who convicts hearts and sets them free? Isn't the spirit led person guided in word and deed by the Spirit Himself? Why all the talk about helping anyone, shouldn't we be concerned with serving God and letting God help those who choose Him? I guess I'm just more confused than before, when I speak to anyone on behalf of my Lord, the goal is not to help them, but rather to honor my King by being obedient to what He wants to speak through me and if that aids someone, the glory then is God's not mine.

amen.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

We are to forgive as God does - when there is repentance.

He says we are to forgive 70 x 7, when our brother repents.

The first step, of course, is to stop the harm. The hurtful actions must cease, the violence or destruction or exploitation must end, before forgiveness is appropriate.

The second is acknowledgement. The person who has committed an act of harm must acknowledge that they’ve done so, and be willing to hear and listen to the effects of their actions.

The third is repentance. The wrongdoer must regret the act and be willing to change. An apology is also in order—and a wise person once defined an apology as “something that actually makes the person you’ve hurt feel better.” An apology is not an excuse, a justification, a comparison to others who perhaps have done more odious things, or a new, veiled attack on the person you’ve harmed. An apology is not, “Why are you making such a big deal about this?” or “Here’s what you did to me” or “She hit me first!” It’s some variation of “I’m truly sorry, and I won’t do it again.”

The fourth is making amends—The wrongdoer must accept responsibility and do whatever he or she can to alleviate the harm, repair the damage, restore what has been taken or destroyed. If this requires the wrongdoer to make some sacrifices or suffer some losses, that’s part of taking responsibility.

Unless these four conditions have been met, forgiveness can be premature and become a form of collusion. For example: Women are constantly being asked to forgive abusers. But unless the abuse is stopped, and the abuser acknowledges, repents, and makes amends for the harm he or she has done, calls for premature forgiveness are a form of victim-blaming that compound the damage.

For the Christian, forgiveness is an unconditional requirement -- turn the other cheek, forgive your enemies, etc. But for there to be genuine reconciliation, repentance is necessary. If the person who has wronged you or wronged others is sincerely willing to transform his behavior in the future, then there can be a genuine and lasting healing.

"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."
Luke 17:3-4

EXCELLENT POST, BRILLIANT, SAYS IT ALL.
Christina may Moriah have permission to copy this into its blog? It will credit you with writing it of course, and provide a link to the original. Please say yes!!! This post absolutely says it all!!!! WELL DoNE!!!!

 

[Angeloffire]

We are to forgive as God does - when there is repentance.

He says we are to forgive 70 x 7, when our brother repents.

The first step, of course, is to stop the harm. The hurtful actions must cease, the violence or destruction or exploitation must end, before forgiveness is appropriate.

The second is acknowledgement. The person who has committed an act of harm must acknowledge that they’ve done so, and be willing to hear and listen to the effects of their actions.

The third is repentance. The wrongdoer must regret the act and be willing to change. An apology is also in order—and a wise person once defined an apology as “something that actually makes the person you’ve hurt feel better.” An apology is not an excuse, a justification, a comparison to others who perhaps have done more odious things, or a new, veiled attack on the person you’ve harmed. An apology is not, “Why are you making such a big deal about this?” or “Here’s what you did to me” or “She hit me first!” It’s some variation of “I’m truly sorry, and I won’t do it again.”

The fourth is making amends—The wrongdoer must accept responsibility and do whatever he or she can to alleviate the harm, repair the damage, restore what has been taken or destroyed. If this requires the wrongdoer to make some sacrifices or suffer some losses, that’s part of taking responsibility.

Unless these four conditions have been met, forgiveness can be premature and become a form of collusion. For example: Women are constantly being asked to forgive abusers. But unless the abuse is stopped, and the abuser acknowledges, repents, and makes amends for the harm he or she has done, calls for premature forgiveness are a form of victim-blaming that compound the damage.

For the Christian, forgiveness is an unconditional requirement -- turn the other cheek, forgive your enemies, etc. But for there to be genuine reconciliation, repentance is necessary. If the person who has wronged you or wronged others is sincerely willing to transform his behavior in the future, then there can be a genuine and lasting healing.

"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."
Luke 17:3-4

Your thinking is not correct.

First of all you realise that this scripture says 'brother'. My brothers are only those who put Truth first in their lives and obey the Father.

The Lord's prayer says when you are standing if you have anything against "anyone" to forgive or you won't be forgiven.

Second, no where in the bible except the old testament does it say to 'repay'. It is to insinuate that you are God and that others "owe' you and that they have to 'make it right'. Who gets to decide what is right? How about it is me? Are you willing to let me play God on this forum and decide who gets what and what they should do and say to be correct with God?


WE all deserve hell fire. The only person you can truly sin against is God, for He is the only one that is perfect.

Honestly if someone does something wrong to me, I don't want an apology. I don't deserve it anyway.

I would rather they focused on God, not me. I want them to realise that it is God that will send them to hell if they disobey and play god in other people's lives.

I am nothing, I own no kingdom, I am not to be bowed down to, I am to wash the feet of my brethren and to pray for those who persecute me and to honor my Father by speaking the Truth.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Rubbish. Her thinking happens to be 100% Spirit-filled and REAL. It would be your thinking that proves incorrect. Christina just made a completely sane, balanced, truth-filled post here. Just because you personally do not agree with it does not make her thinking "wrong". In fact, it happens to constitute the absolute indisputable central hallmark of "wrong thinking" to imagine that "right thinking" versus "wrong thinking" should be determined by one's own opinions of others' thought.

The Bible does, in fact, state quite clearly that human beings can, and do, sin against one another. Just one example: in the prodigal son story his declaration of repentance states, "Father I have sinned against God and against you." Jesus Himself told this story, so there can be no margin of human error here. Other examples exist but this one will suffice for now.

Human lives do matter. Christ died for these. Anyone pretending to proclaim the Gospel who wants to erase human lives out of the equation has missed the point entirely. Human lives bes not disposable. It bes for these, and for the redemption of them, that Christ died in the first place. Anyone thinking they can use the Gospel as a smokescreen to disguise some hyperspiritualized misanthropy needs their heads examined.

 

[Angeloffire]

Rubbish. Her thinking happens to be 100% Spirit-filled and REAL. It would be your thinking that proves incorrect. Christina just made a completely sane, balanced, truth-filled post here. Just because you personally do not agree with it does not make her thinking "wrong". In fact, it happens to constitute the absolute indisputable central hallmark of "wrong thinking" to imagine that "right thinking" versus "wrong thinking" should be determined by one's own opinions of others' thought.

Okay then,,,,are you willing to abide by it?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Nothing to add. This post by Christina bes one of the best on this subject ever seen to date, and everyone should read it and take it to heart.

We are to forgive as God does - when there is repentance.

He says we are to forgive 70 x 7, when our brother repents.

The first step, of course, is to stop the harm. The hurtful actions must cease, the violence or destruction or exploitation must end, before forgiveness is appropriate.

The second is acknowledgement. The person who has committed an act of harm must acknowledge that they’ve done so, and be willing to hear and listen to the effects of their actions.

The third is repentance. The wrongdoer must regret the act and be willing to change. An apology is also in order—and a wise person once defined an apology as “something that actually makes the person you’ve hurt feel better.” An apology is not an excuse, a justification, a comparison to others who perhaps have done more odious things, or a new, veiled attack on the person you’ve harmed. An apology is not, “Why are you making such a big deal about this?” or “Here’s what you did to me” or “She hit me first!” It’s some variation of “I’m truly sorry, and I won’t do it again.”

The fourth is making amends—The wrongdoer must accept responsibility and do whatever he or she can to alleviate the harm, repair the damage, restore what has been taken or destroyed. If this requires the wrongdoer to make some sacrifices or suffer some losses, that’s part of taking responsibility.

Unless these four conditions have been met, forgiveness can be premature and become a form of collusion. For example: Women are constantly being asked to forgive abusers. But unless the abuse is stopped, and the abuser acknowledges, repents, and makes amends for the harm he or she has done, calls for premature forgiveness are a form of victim-blaming that compound the damage.

For the Christian, forgiveness is an unconditional requirement -- turn the other cheek, forgive your enemies, etc. But for there to be genuine reconciliation, repentance is necessary. If the person who has wronged you or wronged others is sincerely willing to transform his behavior in the future, then there can be a genuine and lasting healing.

"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."
Luke 17:3-4
​

Amen. God bless those open to hearing His truth on the matter, which has more than abundantly been set forth by these words above.

 

[Angeloffire]

See, even you know it isn't right.

 

[Angeloffire]

When we play god, we want people to answer to us, to seek "our" forgiveness, to answer to 'our' words and "our" ways. We are always the one who is hurt....poor little me.........this is not God....nor is it of God.....and those who do that are not saved but are their own god.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

That may be how your mind works, and if so, you have Moriah's condolences, because in the end you will be your own worst and harshest judge and rot in a mental prison of your own construction in that case. But it says absolutely nothing about how other people think or feel, and trying to pretend it does or claim it does only constitutes passing judgment on others on your part, which Christ says repeatedly, DON'T.

You keep talking about looking only to God and needing only from God, etc. but with post after post you reveal yourself as someone who desperately needs to put others down and condemn them for thoughts and feelings you imagine them to be having that you seem obsessed with hammering on about over and over. Why don't you give it a rest already. Your condemnations and put downs of others don't help anyone here. You keep saying look only to God, don't worry about what others think, well then, be the example yourself -- stop trying to tell others how to think about themselves and how to regard themselves when you haven't got the first clue how they even feel in the first place.

The only people who have to keep passing condemnatory judgments on others with words like "self pity" and "pity party" and "poor me" about anyone OTHER THAN THEMSELVES would be WORTHLESS ABUSERS who delight in FIRST inflicting unwarranted HARM upon others and then HAVE to OBSESSIVELY keep digging in with more and more cruelty by prancing around waggling their fat behinds to show off how blatantly unrepentant they can be about it.

Nobody needs or wants to watch that kind of garbage here.

 

[Angeloffire]

That may be how your mind works, and if so, you have Moriah's condolences, because in the end you will be your own worst and harshest judge and rot in a mental prison of your own construction in that case. But it says absolutely nothing about how other people think or feel, and trying to pretend it does or claim it does only constitutes passing judgment on others on your part, which Christ says repeatedly, DON'T.

You keep talking about looking only to God and needing only from God, etc. but with post after post you reveal yourself as someone who desperately needs to put others down and condemn them for thoughts and feelings you imagine them to be having that you seem obsessed with hammering on about over and over. Why don't you give it a rest already. Your condemnations and put downs of others don't help anyone here. You keep saying look only to God, don't worry about what others think, well then, be the example yourself -- stop trying to tell others how to think about themselves and how to regard themselves when you haven't got the first clue how they even feel in the first place.

The only people who have to keep passing condemnatory judgments on others with words like "self pity" and "pity party" and "poor me" about anyone OTHER THAN THEMSELVES would be WORTHLESS ABUSERS who delight in FIRST inflicting unwarranted HARM upon others and then HAVE to OBSESSIVELY keep digging in with more and more cruelty by prancing around waggling their fat behinds to show off how blatantly unrepentant they can be about it.

Nobody needs or wants to watch that kind of garbage here.

What I spoke was the Word of God......you realise you just called it garbage.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

You did not speak the Word of God ... you spoke from the abundance of your own heart.
Major difference.
Moriah called condemnations and putdowns -- as well as flagrant displays of demonstrably deliberately flaunted unrepentance -- garbage.
Sorry but somehow that does not qualify as the Word of God no matter how you slice it.

Nowhere in God's word will you find the kinds of hard-hearted condemnations against people for being in pain that your posts have thrown around on this forum so abusively. By contrast, God time and again shows Himself the one who reaches down to lift up and rescue those distressed, oppressed, falsely accused, wrongly mistreated, and Jesus shows Himself full of tender mercy and pity toward those afflicted and in bondage. You got a problem with God's ways then take it up with Him but you will NOT beat His hurting people nor grind their faces in the dirt for your own self-justification or amusement or whatever satisfaction you get from it.