How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[Mark Quayle]

I have to disagree. We can have an inclination towards obeying and yet live our whole life in sin. Why? Because of libertarian free will.

Also our inclinations change if we choose living in sin. Our heart hardens and our inclination becomes more and more towards sin.

As always, we are at God's mercy, not at the mercy of will. Certainly, there is much that changes through even one obedience or through one disobedience —certainly through the habit of obedience or the habit of disobedience. It is not because the heart is hard (though we could go there) that one is unable to please God, but because he is at enmity with God.

 

[zoidar]

Why would you think that is an inclination towards obeying? Such 'obedience' is compliance, not submission. Such 'obedience' is self-serving, perhaps hoping for relief from guilt or from condemnation. Even the 'obeyer' might not know.

That's a theory. Still I don't believe you are right.

I have to ask you? Do you know you are saved? How? Not saying you aren't.

 

[zoidar]

Why would you think that is an inclination towards obeying?

Because I think I had an inclination towards obeying, especially since I'm born again. I wanted to obey, I desired to obey, I knew what I did was wrong and I still chose living in sin. Why?

 

[Clare73]

Because I think I had an inclination towards obeying, especially since I'm born again. I wanted to obey, I desired to obey, I knew what I did was wrong and I still chose living in sin. Why?

You loved your sin more than God.

Why do you believe you were born again at that time?

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[zoidar]

You loved your sin more than God.

Why do you believe you were born again at that time?

How I know? One thing, because my heart became clean as a newborn child. God forgave me and cleansed me from sin. If this wasn't the new birth, new birth does not exist. But it was.

Hard things happened in my life and my heart got mudded up. 5 years or so in my walk with God I fell for the temptation.

Then I had an inclination towards living in sin? But in that case you can be born again and have an inclination towards living in sin. I don't know ...

 

[Clare73]

How I know? One thing, because my heart became clean as a newborn child. God forgave me and cleansed me from sin. If this wasn't the new birth, new birth does not exist. But it was.

Then I had an inclination towards living in sin? But in that case you can be born again and have an inclination towards living in sin. I don't know ...

The born again are tempted.

 

[zoidar]

The born again are tempted.

Thanks for being supportive!

I just wrote this as you posted:

Hard things happened in my life and my heart got mudded up. 5 years or so in my walk with God I fell for the temptation.

 

[zoidar]

The born again are tempted.

This very much reminds me. Even we "quarell" over all these issues, first and foremost we should be supportive.

Lord have mercy! ✝️

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's a theory. Still I don't believe you are right.

I have to ask you? Do you know you are saved? How? Not saying you aren't.

The Spirit witnesses with my spirit, that I am a child of God. I have to say, though, that has become of little regard in my thinking, compared to the joy of watching God do what he set out to do, whatever it is. My hope of 'arriving' is nothing compared to my hope of seeing his face. ('Hope' there, includes expectation and anticipation.)

How do you know you are? Was your decision firm enough? You changed and you are satisfied the change was genuine? Genuine how? Couldn't-be-fooling-yourself genuine? Sounds pretty subjective to me.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because I think I had an inclination towards obeying, especially since I'm born again. I wanted to obey, I desired to obey, I knew what I did was wrong and I still chose living in sin. Why?

What made you sensitive to the fact it was wrong? See, here's the thing. I can't escape the plain logic that dead cannot do anything. And Scripture agrees. And knowing myself, I know my decisions and even desires for God are not trustworthy. It just doesn't add up that my salvation depends in any way on me. And Scripture agrees. The Gospel is Grace. On top of that, reason demands there is nothing truly spontaneous, except what God does.

Anyhow, all that being so, the cause is God himself, and he does it by the Holy Spirit. The fact you feel (and I have felt —you may as well believe that too—) changed. The difference is not the evidence. Particularly, I'd say, not when you think you can change by mere decision. The difference is the regeneration. You don't know when it happened, even if you noticed or felt something. It is what the Spirit does in the spiritually dead, making them alive. All the other virtues follow. It need not be sequential according to our view.

 

[zoidar]

The Spirit witnesses with my spirit, that I am a child of God. I have to say, though, that has become of little regard in my thinking, compared to the joy of watching God do what he set out to do, whatever it is. My hope of 'arriving' is nothing compared to my hope of seeing his face. ('Hope' there, includes expectation and anticipation.)

I asked you because you are saying we can strive for living obedient to Christ, "knowing" we are saved but in reality fooling ourselves. That's why I asked how you could be sure. It sounds like you believe many are fooling themselves.

How do you know you are? Was your decision firm enough? You changed and you are satisfied the change was genuine? Genuine how? Couldn't-be-fooling-yourself genuine? Sounds pretty subjective to me.

"Was my decision firm enough?" To me that is an absurd question. It's like asking a mother holding her newborn baby if she believes her decision was firm enough to have a baby.

What do you mean? Of course it's subjective. The new birth is subjective, a change within.

 

[zoidar]

What made you sensitive to the fact it was wrong? See, here's the thing. I can't escape the plain logic that dead cannot do anything. And Scripture agrees. And knowing myself, I know my decisions and even desires for God are not trustworthy. It just doesn't add up that my salvation depends in any way on me. And Scripture agrees. The Gospel is Grace. On top of that, reason demands there is nothing truly spontaneous, except what God does.

Anyhow, all that being so, the cause is God himself, and he does it by the Holy Spirit. The fact you feel (and I have felt —you may as well believe that too—) changed. The difference is not the evidence. Particularly, I'd say, not when you think you can change by mere decision. The difference is the regeneration. You don't know when it happened, even if you noticed or felt something. It is what the Spirit does in the spiritually dead, making them alive. All the other virtues follow. It need not be sequential according to our view.

Of course you can't be changed by a decision. You need to be born again.

I don't know about regeneration, but I do know when I was born again. That was 21th of June after I got home from work, sitting in my chair pouring out my heart to God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I asked you because you are saying we can strive for living obedient to Christ, "knowing" we are saved but in reality fooling ourselves. That's why I asked how you could be sure. It sounds like you believe many are fooling themselves.

Yes, I believe many are fooling themselves. Possibly even I.

"Was my decision firm enough?" To me that is an absurd question. It's like asking a mother holding her newborn baby if she believes her decision was firm enough to have a baby.

What do you mean? Of course it's subjective. The new birth is subjective, a change within.

Actually, no. It objectively either is, or is not. Whether it is or not doesn't depend on what you think or feel. It is the work of God.

It's a bit like saying that morality is subjective.

Of course you can't be changed by a decision. You need to be born again.

I don't know about regeneration, but I do know when I was born again. That was 21th of June after I got home from work, sitting in my chair pouring out my heart to God.

But WHY, or HOW did you get to the point of pouring your heart out to God?

That may have been when you noticed it, as in: (my paraphrase) "Behold I stand at the door and call out. If any man hear my voice and will open the door, I will come in, and have supper with him, and he with me." That is fellowship.

But you can't account for how you got to that point. Gradually built up to that, or quickly, the fact is that God is who made you feel that need for him. "Born again" is objective; it happens to you. Feeling fellowship, or feeling repentant, or feeling desire for Christ —all subjective.

 

[zoidar]

But WHY, or HOW did you get to the point of pouring your heart out to God?

The short answer is I was seeking and got convicted of being a sinner. Why was I seeking? Because I wanted meaning. Why did I want meaning? All humans do.

I can't answer you what role my free will or what predetermination played in this, because I don't know. All I know is that God showed me mercy.

 

[zoidar]

Yes, I believe many are fooling themselves. Possibly even I.



Actually, no. It objectively either is, or is not. Whether it is or not doesn't depend on what you think or feel. It is the work of God.

It's a bit like saying that morality is subjective.



But WHY, or HOW did you get to the point of pouring your heart out to God?

That may have been when you noticed it, as in: (my paraphrase) "Behold I stand at the door and call out. If any man hear my voice and will open the door, I will come in, and have supper with him, and he with me." That is fellowship.

But you can't account for how you got to that point. Gradually built up to that, or quickly, the fact is that God is who made you feel that need for him. "Born again" is objective; it happens to you. Feeling fellowship, or feeling repentant, or feeling desire for Christ —all subjective.

Of course you are right that the new birth is an objective reality. I had the wrong understanding of words subjective and objective.

But isn't it both?
If a blind man gets his sight back, it's an objective truth, but what he sees with his new eyes isn't that subjective?

*Edited

 

[GodsGrace101]

Why or, in what way, does free will have everything to do with obeying God? Is not mere will enough? Why this notion, "Free"? What is the difference? What do you mean by, "Free"?

What is the will?

As traditionally conceived, the will is the faculty of choice or decision, by which we determine which actions we shall perform. As a faculty of decision, the will is naturally seen as the point at which we exercise our freedom of action – our control of how we act. It is within our control or up to us which actions we perform only because we have a capacity to decide which actions we shall perform, and it is up to us which such decisions we take. We exercise our freedom of action through freely taken decisions about how we shall act.

source: Will, the - Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy


In theology we use the term FREE WILL which is related to moral decisions.
We use the term FREE because there are some areas of theology which state that our will is not truly free, but is dependent on an outside source, or, actually, on coercion from this outside force.

This outside force would be God.

To show which WILL we are speaking of the terms LIBERTARIAN and COMPATIBLE free will are used.

Now, I'm not really here to discuss what words mean.
If a term is used, it means the person using it understands what it means.
Otherwise our conversation become useless, unless we use the same terms having the same meaning.

If @Clare73 had said "born again", would it mean she's of the reformed faith? She claims no allegiance to the "Reformed Faith", whatever that means.

Those of the reformed faith use the term REGENERATE. They also believe regeneration precedes salvation - the opposite of what the rest of Christianity believes.

Your characterization of the Reformed is inaccurate.

Where is the inaccuracy?

They believe that God will indeed bring those he chose to finally be with him after their temporal life.

Exactly.
In the reformed faith, it is GOD that chooses who will have eternal life and who will be damned.
For whatever reason - we are not informed as to what the decision is based on.
The person, either chosen or not chosen, has no say in the decision.

You want to make it sound like some kind of 'automatic' thing. But the Reformed know, God is not mocked, and what we sow, we reap. You have the whole matter backwards. Our will has not been removed from us. We continue, as always, to choose according to our inclinations, just as God planned.

Correct. In Calvinism God planned what each person will choose at each moment of his life.
As Piper has stated, even the specks of dust in the air are controlled by God.
This type of choosing on our part is certainly mocking TO US.
It's called compatibilist free will.
It is not true free will, but man is made to choose according to what God wills.

Choosing according to our inclinations is a sweet way of saying it.
But it's not so sweet to man since his true free will has been eradicated by a God that chooses everything for him.

There is no value in the extra word, "free", unless by it you are talking about freedom in Christ or something of that nature.

If instead, you mean no causation to your choices, then you are wrong. Everything is caused, except first cause.

It would be nice to clear up whether or not you adhere to all the beliefs of calvinism,
or if you just pick and choose which ones you like and then expect others to know your choices.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I can see if you come at it from an Arminian perspective, that already assumes coming in to the question that either option to choose from is possible, and has to be possible for choice to be real, (although that is only an assumption, and unproven), that it will seem the requirement to choose implies the ability to obey.

Jacob Arminius was born in the 1,500's.
I don't know anything about him.

I believe in normal Christianity which began soon after Jesus resurrected.
And yes, if we can choose between option A or option B that means we have free will.
See
Deuteronomy 30:19
19“Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. Now I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, so that you and your descendants might live!

As you can see a free will choice is not an assumption, but what the entire bible teaches.
Are we robots, or are we human?
God created us in His image.
God has will that is free.
He gifted this to us also.

Nowhere in the OT or the NT did we lose this gift of the freedom to choose between 2 options -
moral options, salvation options.

No. The ability to freely choose does NOT imply the ability to obey.
Two different topics.

Truth is, not only do we not even understand what we are choosing, but we are slaves to Christ, or to Sin. Those not born again of the Spirit of God do not have the ability, per Romans 8, to submit to God's law nor to please God. They can choose as they wish, but they will always choose to sin; even when they think they are choosing God, they are choosing death. "Depart from me you workers of iniquity!"

Agreed.
We are the slaves to whom we present ourselves.
Romans 6:16
16Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.

Again, notice that we are given the free will choice to choose.
The ability to choose denotes a will that is truly free.

As to your quote of Matthew 7:23 I do appreciate that you posted WHY Jesus is telling some to depart from Him...they were workers of iniquity. Some forget to leave out this part.

OF COURSE

the choice is up to us! Nobody is saying otherwise. But what are we going to choose? Even when the non-born-again 'choose Christ' they haven't chosen Christ. Their will, and so their choice, is corrupt. How many thousands, maybe millions, have 'chosen Christ' and turns out they were mistaken? "Depart from me you workers of iniquity!"

The above is not understandable to me. Sorry.

First you say the choice is up to us.
Then you say we are unable to choose.
The inability to be unable to choose is calvinistic.

If someone states they have chosen Christ, then they have chosen Christ and hopefully they will live for Christ and be sincere.

 

[GodsGrace101]

How is "born again" objective if it happens to me? If it happens to me, surely it must be subjective, no?

Being born again is objective.

You either are or you are not.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Not necessarily. . .

"If you don't go to Harvard, you cannot be in the club,"
does not mean I can go to Harvard.


I am not saying they never sin (1 John 1:8-10), I am saying they never sin fatally, they do not apostasize.

Not too sure how God being responsible for my sin got in this, but God did not promise the regenerate they would never sin (1 John 1:8-10), he promised that he would keep them from sinning fatally, from falling away.

"Free will" does not give the power to obey God, for the free will of the unregenerate man cannot obey God (Romans 8:7-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; John 3:3-5).
Scripture does not present obeying God as depending on "free will." That is man's notion.
Scripture presents obeying God as depending on a regenerate heart.
The issue in obeying God is not free will, the issue is whether the heart is regenerate or not.

Agreed. . .it is not taken from us, it is just inconsequential.
It is man who has inserted the notion of the "necessity of free will" into the Scriptures, it is not there.
Obedience requires a regenerate heart, not a "free will."

That is what is meant by "the curse of the law" from which Jesus redeemed us in Galatians 3:13.
So we are agreed here?

I have consistently maintained that both (unregenerate and regenerate man) have the free will presented in Scripture; i.e., the ability to voluntarily and freely, without external force or constraint, choose what they prefer, like.
So, do we agree here also?

I'm referring to the renewal/ratification, and supplementary requirements of the Mosaic Covenant-- including ceremonial consecration, government leaders and a righteous nation, sanctity of God's kingdom and confession of God as Redeemer-King--in Deuteronomy 4:44-26:19, given in Exodus 19-24.

All the supplementary stipulations of Deuteronomy 4:44-26:19, including the curses, are part of the Mosaic Covenant.

We're all over the place and this takes a lot of time.

Let me ask you this:
Are you reformed in your theology?

I'd like to get away from repeating that I agree that having free will does not imply obedience.
Just that, once we are born again, we are free to obey or not to obey.