How, then, is the Calvinist refuted? (2)

[Thekla]

You forgot the shake before the bake.
Predestination "force" is applied before creation.
Unless you're a Doris Dayist and believe in Que sera, sera ("Whatever will be, will be")

thanks ! no I'm not a Doris Dayist (how dare you); what an irritating actress -- though I did like her in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" !

So, before creation, that Adam and Eve would sin was planned. Was it possible for them to do otherwise ?

(I think I'm getting somewhere in understanding this, but I've been wrong plenty of times before)

 

[frumanchu]

Ben refuses to engage me in conversation, and as such this leaves him a convenient excuse to avoid tough questions about his theology and his arguments that he doesn't want to answer. Nevertheless, these are valid questions which "Responsible Grace" MUST answer as they present glaring holes.

1. Ben says that Scripture, in particular the book of Exodus, uses a literary device to ascribe man's actions to God's. This is his explanation to accomodate verses like Exodus 4:21. However, Exodus 4:21 does not merely describe God as performing an action...it is presented as a direct quote from God Himself in which He says, "I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

The question for "Responsible Grace Theology" is are not the words of Exodus 4:21 God's actual words?

2. Ben says that 2 Peter 3:9 states that God "makes room for all to repent." This is based upon one definition of the Greek word choreo being "to leave space (which may be filled or occupied by another), to make room, give place, yield." However, let's look at where choreo appears in the verse:

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come (choreo) to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9 (NASB)

According to Ben, the agent which performs the action of the verb choreo is God. He maintains that the verse states that God "makes room for" (choreo) all to repent. However, God is clearly NOT the agent of this verb in the verse. The agent is "all."

The question for "Responsible Grace Theology" is by what justification can this verse be rewritten to make God the agent, saying He "makes room for all to repent?"

3. Ben says that one cannot have the appearance of being saved, including what appears superficially to be the fruit of salvation, and yet not have been saved. He also maintains that salvation is fellowship with Jesus.

However, in Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus speaks of those who come to Him in the last days pointing and appealing to works they have done in His name, yet Jesus says He NEVER knew them.

The question for "Responsible Grace Theology" is, does this verse not clearly demonstrate that men may have the outward appearance of being saved yet never have actually been saved?


These are just a few of the many questions which Responsible Grace advocates must answer in light of the clear apparent contradictions with Scripture, yet they are repeatedly avoided and evaded...never answered.

 

[jmacvols]

If God had not hardened Pharaoh heart then who is to say when Moses said those words that Pharaoh would not have discussed this with Moses since Moses was by the way his brother.. So you saying that it was those words that hardened his heart just don't make sense even in a natural sense.. IT was God who hardened the heart.. For God predestined it to happen and quess what.. IT did..

I never said God did not harden Pharaoh's heart, He did, but in what manner did God harden Pharaoh's heart?
Indirectly thru Moses and Moses' words. Again, comparing 2 Sam 24:1 to 1 Chron 21:1, how did God move David?

 

[Rick Otto]

thanks ! no I'm not a Doris Dayist (how dare you); what an irritating actress -- though I did like her in "The Man Who Knew Too Much" !

So, before creation, that Adam and Eve would sin was planned. Was it possible for them to do otherwise ?

(I think I'm getting somewhere in understanding this, but I've been wrong plenty of times before)

It is impossible for a creation to be anything other than what it was created to be.
You can picture God forcing or allowing, but either way it is Him in control.

 

[vekarppe]

So, before creation, that Adam and Eve would sin was planned. Was it possible for them to do otherwise ?

May I quote L. S. Chafer again,

The Scripture, while recognizing a freedom of action in man, do nevertheless, assert that man is not exempt from the control of his Creator. It may be said that God does know what the actions of men will be when placed under certain circumstances. It is equally true that He is the Author of circumstances. God knew that when placed under the circumstances which obtained, Adam would fall. God could have arranged matters otherwise, but hit He did not do. The question as to the relation between the divine and human responsibility is, in such a development , exceedingly complex. God did not fail to warn Adam, nor, when pronouncing sentence upon him after his sin, did God assume any portion of the responsibility. It may be further observed that had Adam obeyed God, as God commanded him to do, there would have been no need of a Redeemer; yet the Redeemer as well as the need for Him was evidently in the decree of God from all eternity (Rev. 13:8). This problem, yet to be considered more fully, is far reaching, but is not solved by any theory that seeks escape from the difficulties through the exit of a supposed irresponsible divine foreknowledge.

 

[jmacvols]

Ben refuses to engage me in conversation, and as such this leaves him a convenient excuse to avoid tough questions about his theology and his arguments that he doesn't want to answer. Nevertheless, these are valid questions which "Responsible Grace" MUST answer as they present glaring holes.

1. Ben says that Scripture, in particular the book of Exodus, uses a literary device to ascribe man's actions to God's. This is his explanation to accomodate verses like Exodus 4:21. However, Exodus 4:21 does not merely describe God as performing an action...it is presented as a direct quote from God Himself in which He says, "I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

The question for "Responsible Grace Theology" is are not the words of Exodus 4:21 God's actual words?

How did God harden Pharaoh's heart?

Did God harden Pharaoh's heart in a miraculous, direct method without using Moses and Moses words "let my people go" or did God harden Pharoah's heart indirectly by sending Moses with words to tell unto Pharoah?

How do you compare what the Lord spoke in Ex 4:21 to Ex 9:34,35?

How did God move David comparing 2 Sam 24:1 to 1 Chron 21:1?


In Mt 7:21,22. In verse 21 Jesus said those that are to enter the kingdom of heaven are the ones that doeth the will of my Father. The works those people in v22 claimed to have done in the Lord's name were not the will of the Father, i.e., those works were not done with the Father's authority. Col 3:17 whatsoever ye do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord. In the name of the Lord means by His authority, so what one does in word and deed must be by the authority of the Lord. The Lord never knew them for what they claimed to have done was not done by the Lord's authority, hence what they did is called "iniquity".

 

[IamAdopted]

I never said God did not harden Pharaoh's heart, He did, but in what manner did God harden Pharaoh's heart?
Indirectly thru Moses and Moses' words. Again, comparing 2 Sam 24:1 to 1 Chron 21:1, how did God move David?

It does not matter the how it is the point that HE did.. God is in complete control. It was a predestined plan of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Same as the death of Christ.. Same as those who will come to be the elect...

 

[IamAdopted]

How did God harden Pharaoh's heart?

Did God harden Pharaoh's heart in a miraculous, direct method without using Moses and Moses words "let my people go" or did God harden Pharoah's heart indirectly by sending Moses with words to tell unto Pharoah?

How do you compare what the Lord spoke in Ex 4:21 to Ex 9:34,35?

How did God move David comparing 2 Sam 24:1 to 1 Chron 21:1?


In Mt 7:21,22. In verse 21 Jesus said those that are to enter the kingdom of heaven are the ones that doeth the will of my Father. The works those people in v22 claimed to have done in the Lord's name were not the will of the Father, i.e., those works were not done with the Father's authority. Col 3:17 whatsoever ye do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord. In the name of the Lord means by His authority, so what one does in word and deed must be by the authority of the Lord. The Lord never knew them for what they claimed to have done was not done by the Lord's authority, hence what they did is called "iniquity".

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

 

[jmacvols]

It does not matter the how it is the point that HE did.. God is in complete control. It was a predestined plan of the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Same as the death of Christ.. Same as those who will come to be the elect...

It does matter how. Some will wrongly say that God hardened Pharoah's heart against his will, that God made Pharaoh to disobey. Yet in reality, God simply created the circumstances that allowed Pharaoh to choose to harden his own heart.

 

[jmacvols]

Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Those that work out their savlation are those that are obeying God's will. God works in those that obey, none else.

 

[IamAdopted]

It does matter how. Some will wrongly say that God hardened Pharoah's heart against his will, that God made Pharaoh to disobey. Yet in reality, God simply created the circumstances that allowed Pharaoh to choose to harden his own heart.

Oh Give me a break..LOL.. God Said He did it and Pharoah was just the clay in the potters hand as we all are..

 

[nobdysfool]

How did God harden Pharaoh's heart?

Did God harden Pharaoh's heart in a miraculous, direct method without using Moses and Moses words "let my people go" or did God harden Pharoah's heart indirectly by sending Moses with words to tell unto Pharoah?

So then, you are admitting that God accomplishes His will indirectly (through indirect means and secondary causes) as well directly? Good. But you are avoiding the question. Did God say, or did God not say, directly, "I will harden Pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the people go"? Were those not the very words of God Himself? Ultimately, it is clear that it is God who hardened Pharaoh's heart, and Pharaoh's subsequent hardening of his heart, as recorded in scripture, was the outworking of that which God had done. That He used secondary means does not negate the fact that He said He would harden Pharaoh's heart, and He said it before Moses even went to Egypt to do what God commanded..

How do you compare what the Lord spoke in Ex 4:21 to Ex 9:34,35?

Just explained it.

How did God move David comparing 2 Sam 24:1 to 1 Chron 21:1?

Compare this with 1 Kings 22:19-23. A perfect example of God using secondary causes to bring about His will. The same principle applies to the passages you quoted.

In Mt 7:21,22. In verse 21 Jesus said those that are to enter the kingdom of heaven are the ones that doeth the will of my Father. The works those people in v22 claimed to have done in the Lord's name were not the will of the Father, i.e., those works were not done with the Father's authority. Col 3:17 whatsoever ye do in word or deed do all in the name of the Lord. In the name of the Lord means by His authority, so what one does in word and deed must be by the authority of the Lord. The Lord never knew them for what they claimed to have done was not done by the Lord's authority, hence what they did is called "iniquity".

Our authority, given to us by the Lord Jesus Himself, is "in His Name". Those referred to in Matt 7;21-22 did the works In His Name, invoking the authority of God Himself. The reason they were rejected was because they were not truly saved, and not truly His sheep, therefore He did not know them as His sheep, and were therefore not of His flock. We are told in scripture that "whatsoever things ye ask in My Name, believing, ye shall have them." and "whatsoever things ye ask in My Name, believing, ye shall receive." Asking according to the revealed Will of God, in faith, and in His Name, is invoking the authority of God Himself.

 

[IamAdopted]

Those that work out their savlation are those that are obeying God's will. God works in those that obey, none else.

I think you have the cart before the horse.. God works in all that are His to obey..That is why we have to have the Spirit of Christ or we are none of His..

 

[cygnusx1]

Oh Give me a break..LOL.. God Said He did it and Pharoah was just the clay in the potters hand as we all are..

sister .... it takes faith to trust God beyond the good stuff ...

 

[jmacvols]

Oh Give me a break..LOL.. God Said He did it...

I never denied God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but He did it in a way that allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart.

... and Pharoah was just the clay in the potters hand as we all are..

From Jer 18:4 the clay marred in the potter's hand, the potter did not cause the clay to mar. So it depends on how the clay behaves in the potters hand that determines what the potter does with it. God tells Israel that as the clay is in the potters hand so are ye in my hand, v6. If Israel obeyed, v8, they would be vessels of honor, but if they disobey (marred), v10, they would be vessels of dishonor. So how Israel behaved determined if they would be vessels of honor or dishonor. It is not a random thing.

 

[jmacvols]

So then, you are admitting that God accomplished His will indirectly (through indirect means and secondary causes) as well directly? Good. But you are avoiding the question. Did God say, or did God not say, directly, "I will harden Pharaoh's heart so that he will not let the people go"? Were those not the very words of God Himself? Ultimately, it is clear that it is God who hardened Pharaoh's heart, and Pharaoh's subsequent hardening of his heart, as recorded in scripture, was the outworking of that which God had done. That He used secondary means does not negate the fact that He said He would harden Pharaoh's heart, and He said it before Moses even went to Egypt to do what God commanded..

Where did I ever say God did not harden Pharaoh's heart? God did by creating the circumstances in sending Moses with words to tell Pharaoh. God allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart, thus the idom of the Hebrew language has God hardening his heart when God simply allowed it to happen.

Just explained it.

When God said "I will harden his heart, that statement has to also allow for Pharoah hardnening his own heart. You admit God used secondary means, so God did not in some miraculous,direct way harden his heart. God created a circumstance using Moses that allowed Pharaoh to choose to harden his own heart. Thus in this sense God is said to have hardened Pharaoh's heart. Do you have access to Bullinger's book about figures of speech's in the bible? If not, Bullinger shows that the Hebrew language has idioms as the English language. One idom of the Hebrew language is when a active verb is used to say God activley did some thing Himself when in reality God only permitted or allowed it to happen.

Compare this with 1 Kings 22:19-23. A perfect example of God using secondary causes to bring about His will. The same principle applies to the passages you quoted.

2 Sam says God moved David
1 Chron says Satan provoked David

Bible skeptics use these verses to say the bible contradicts itself. Does it? If not how do you explain this? God did not directly provoke David, He simply allowed Satan to and in this sense, the idom of the language God is said to have done it.

Our authority, given to us by the Lord Jesus Himself, is "in His Name". Those referred to in Matt 7;21-22 did the works In His Name, invoking the authority of God Himself. The reason they were rejected was because they were not truly saved, and not truly His sheep, therefore He did not know them as His sheep, and were therefore not of His flock. We are told in scripture that "whatsoever things ye ask in My Name, believing, ye shall have them." and "whatsoever things ye ask in My Name, believing, ye shall receive." Asking according to the revealed Will of God, in faith, and in His Name, is invoking the authority of God Himself.

Those in Mt 7:22 said they did it in the Lord's name, but they did not have the Lord's authority. These money grubbing TV evangelist say that they are doing what they do in the Lord's name, do they have the Lord's authority also to wrongly take people's money? NO.
Mt 24:5,24; Mk 13:6

 

[jmacvols]

I think you have the cart before the horse.. God works in all that are His to obey..That is why we have to have the Spirit of Christ or we are none of His..

One must obey first before they can have the spirit of Christ Acts 5:32; Gal 4:6.

 

[Thekla]

One must obey first before they can have the spirit of Christ Acts 5:32; Gal 4:6.

to add, if you don't mind,

the "spiritual ladder" of the Beatitudes start with meekness, which is synonymous with obedient. Another words, we start our journey with obedience.

 

[Ben johnson]

No it isn't. It is about who decides who will go to heaven, because being an Isrealite is no guarantee, so sovereignity is at issue as he points out as early as verse 6, right after which he gets into election and how it predestination works:
Rom9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Uhmmm, which part of that says anything against "also-Gentiles"? That's what it is, Rick.

9: For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

You've read Genesis 25:23, right? "Jacob and Esau", are two peoples. And the wording does not conflict that God regards individuals' choices.

Heaven isn't salvation.

Really? How many "unsaved", will go there?

We don't earn salvation by works of faith.

I agree with you.

We are elected unto salvation, get born-again, receiving spiritual life, which is to believe & repent.
If you believe, you repent. If you don't repent, you don't realy believe, you weren't realy born again. You just had a religious emotional swoon.

You do understand that "born-again", is "become begotten"? And therefore as many as RECEIVE Christ, to THEM He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" --- this and many other passages clearly assert "born-again THROUGH belief".

Belief comes first, Rick.

No, it means simply what it says.
What you have to deal with is that pedigree is no guarantee, whether it is Jewish or Christian, because the seed of the child of promise is spiritual.

No --- in saying "they are not all children who are descendants of Abraham; but children of the promise are regarded as descendants."

That's "also Gentiles". Those two words are flat stated in verse 24. Neither you nor I can deny it...

He would've said "on the gentiles" instead of "on whom He wishes" if that were the case.

He said "also Gentiles". There is no disconnect with verse 24.

The larger issue His sovereignity.

Not in that passage. God has sovereignly purposed that all who see Jesus AND BELIEVE may have eternal life.

In His sovereignty, He has allowed choice. It's the same choice as always --- please see Deuteronomy 30:15 and following.
"I have set before you life and death, prosperity and adversity, the blessing and the curse; so choose life, by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and keeping His commandments and walking in His statutes. For this is your life and the length of your days."

How about Jos 24:15?
" And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben refuses to engage me in conversation

And why is that, Fru?