How, then, is the Calvinist refuted? (2)

[nobdysfool]

what is meant here by "originate" and "executes" ?

Those numerous passages which assert the decree, the purpose, the determinate counsel, the foreknowledge, the foreordination, and the election, by which God is said to act, combine to establish the truth that, either directly or indirectly and as stated in the Westminster Confession, He originates and executes "whatsoever comes to pass."

Is this the statement you're questioning? It seems to me that it is rather self-explanatory. Originate, in this sense, would be to "create" (not in the sense of ex nihilo, i.e "out of nothing") as a musician creates music, using that which already exists, combined in an original or new way, and execute in this sense means to (using the analogy of a musician) to perform or play that which he has "created", either by playing the instrument himself, or by conducting other musicians to play the music, while he conducts (guides) them, as a conductor does a symphony orchestra.

Does that help?

 

[Thekla]

Is this the statement you're questioning? It seems to me that it is rather self-explanatory. Originate, in this sense, would be to "create" (not in the sense of ex nihilo, i.e "out of nothing") as a musician creates music, using that which already exists, combined in an original or new way, and execute in this sense means to (using the analogy of a musician) to perform or play that which he has "created", either by playing the instrument himself, or by conducting other musicians to play the music, while he conducts (guides) them, as a conductor does a symphony orchestra.

Does that help?

actually yes, thank-you

would humans belong to the ex nihilo creation, or not ?

 

[Ben johnson]

Thereby eviscerating the scriptures of reference to God as Sovereign over the affairs of men...

It "eviscerates" nothing. You just don't understand God's sovereign intent.
(Hint: John6:40....)

or so you want to do when it suits your doctrine.

Every position I've asserted, I've backed with Scripture; not "just suiting my doctrine".

My doctrine consequents from Scripture, not vice-versa.

Think about this, Ben, what you are saying, is that men have created God in their own image, and ascribe to Him those things they don't wish to claim credit for. This is superstition masked as religion.

Picture a frog jumping from a pond; but he keeps right on going, up into the sky, disappearing into the clouds. ...and me gazing after it, muttering, "Sayyyy, that's quite a leap."

If you believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of scripture, then you must accept that when scripture says that God said, "I will Harden Pharaoh's heart", it means exactly that, God is the one who hardened Pharaoh's heart, in Exodus 4:21. Nowhere does it say that God changed His mind, and decided to let Pharaoh harden his own heart. The fact that Pharaoh did, was because God did so first.

So --- God never changes His mind? Whut happened in Gen6:6? Or Jonah3:10?

But yer' arguin' that "God hardens men TO sin and rebellion". And fully missing things like Heb3:6-14, [/color]"don't harden YOUR OWN heart, be careful that you're not hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from the living God. We are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."[/color]

And while we're in Heb3, there is that blassed concept presented in 18-20, and then connecting to 4:11....

Otherwise, you must believe that the Holy spirit inspired the writers of scripture to lie about what God does and doesn't do. Is that what you want to say? I doubt it.

You haven't thought this through at all, or you wouldn't make such a ridiculous, God-dishonoring statement

I've thought it through thoroughly. It all reflects Scripture.

Scripture dictates my beliefs, NBF; the more I study, the more solid RG gets...

The one thing that you're missing, and which grieves me most about you, is that you think God is responsible for things like "hardening hearts towards sin". If I've mis-stated (hope I have), then please correct me.

 

[Ben johnson]

I did read it Ben.. If it was not predestined by God for Pharaoh heart to be hardened then who is to say it ever would have been?

The problem is, the premise of "God-hardening-Pharaoh-TOWARDS-sin", makes God responsible for evil. Knowing God's nature (as I know you do), do you believe that's possible?

The Hand of God is not dependent upon man's will.. The will of man is dependent upon the Hand of God..

Salvation is a dual consideration. Look at 2Tim1:14-16. God guards what we entrust, and we guard what God entrusts.

Can anyone deny that "what God entrusts, is eternal life"?

Pro 16:9 The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.

Look at Prov16:3; do you see "volition" in that? Look at verse 6: "By FEAR OF THE LORD one keeps away from evil". Begin to see the theme?

Prov16:17: "The highway of the upright is to depart from evil; he who watches his way preserves his soul."

Look at verse 20; then 21, etcetera.

There is a balance, isn't there?

So "The Lord directs his steps", clearly has as a presumption, "to those who trust in Him" (verse 20).

And that helps us understand Hitler, Stalin, and many others; God did not direct THEIR steps.

No way, no how.

 

[Ben johnson]

In Romans chapter 9 we have Paul's interpretation about the case of Pharaoh, and, interestingly enough, he uses it to prove God's sovereign right to do whatever he wants to do. Verse 18, "So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills."

The theme of that passage, is "if God wants to also save the Gentiles, who are YOU to COMPLAIN?"

So "God has mercy on whom He wishes", simply means "if God wishes to have mercy on the Gentiles, deal with it, Jewish people."

It does not in any way conflict Rom11:32, "God shut them all up in disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."

 

[Rick Otto]

even those who believe that humans have free choice don't think that creation was a roll of "cosmic dice"

so, by pre-determined, you men that either:
God knows what we will do -or-
what we do is what God makes us do -or-
something else

His foreknowlege is a result of His pre-planning.
- what we do is what God makes us to do.
But there are plenty of instances where He intervenes directly and forces people to say, die for an extreme instance, of how unprecious human will & freedom are in His scheme of things. The elevation of the human decision in salvation is realy kinda yucky... leaves a sort of Humanistic aftertaste.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Ben johnson;The theme of that passage, is "if God wants to also save the Gentiles, who are YOU to COMPLAIN?"

No it isn't. It is about who decides who will go to heaven, because being an Isrealite is no guarantee, so sovereignity is at issue as he points out as early as verse 6, right after which he gets into election and how it predestination works:
Rom9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9: For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Heaven isn't salvation.
We don't earn salvation by works of faith.
We are elected unto salvation, get born-again, receiving spiritual life, which is to believe & repent.
If you believe, you repent. If you don't repent, you don't realy believe, you weren't realy born again. You just had a religious emotional swoon.

So "God has mercy on whom He wishes", simply means "if God wishes to have mercy on the Gentiles, deal with it, Jewish people."

No, it means simply what it says.
What you have to deal with is that pedigree is no guarantee, whether it is Jewish or Christian, because the seed of the child of promise is spiritual.

He would've said "on the gentiles" instead of "on whom He wishes" if that were the case.
The larger issue His sovereignity.

 

[Thekla]

His foreknowlege is a result of His pre-planning.
- what we do is what God makes us to do.
But there are plenty of instances where He intervenes directly and forces people to say, die for an extreme instance, of how unprecious human will & freedom are in His scheme of things. The elevation of the human decision in salvation is realy kinda yucky... leaves a sort of Humanistic aftertaste.

humanism is a feature of ancient philosophy and more recently the western European enlightenment, when the introduction of Aristotilianism was embraced and became the backbone of western theological expression.
Humanism is not simply summarized as the position that God's creation was good, but that man should be "happy" as an end in itself. It is the opposite of self-sacrifice, and is firmly aligned with individualism. In this, it is not unlike eudaemonism - that happiness is acquired by unity with a highest, unchangeable good, this good being unapproachable because it is wholly self-contained and does not 'commune' with anything else.
It is also important to recognize hedonism - the belief that "man's urges are inescapable because they are determined by destiny and are an end in themselves, or they have the character of deliverance from baser oppressive needs".

The earlier Christians rejected both eudaemonism and hedonism, as is clear in their writings. Their model was neither Aristotle nor Plato, but Christ, the second person of the Trinity. The Trinity models (verb) "community", three distinct persons of one essence. Christ, as savior and sacrifice modeled not human < self-serving> love, but the love of God, which is selfless.

In contrast, humanism is selfish, and individualistic. It tends to see selflessness and community as a threat to identity.

 

[vekarppe]

The theme of that passage, is "if God wants to also save the Gentiles, who are YOU to COMPLAIN?"

So "God has mercy on whom He wishes", simply means "if God wishes to have mercy on the Gentiles, deal with it, Jewish people."

Does the passage says so?

 

[nobdysfool]

actually yes, thank-you

would humans belong to the ex nihilo creation, or not ?

Humans were not created ex nihilo, they were created from the dust of the ground, and made alive by the breath of God.

 

[nobdysfool]

NBF

Nowhere does it say that God changed His mind, and decided to let Pharaoh harden his own heart. The fact that Pharaoh did, was because God did so first.

So --- God never changes His mind? Whut happened in Gen6:6? Or Jonah3:10?

Ben, go back and read what I wrote again, and this time read it slowly enough that you understand what I said. I am getting very annoyed with the way you don't really catch what is being said, so intent are you on trying to find a way to negate it. Read it again. Your answer does not match up with what I said, AT ALL. I don't answer you to have you completely miss my point. I do so through pain, so pay attention!

Your answers to this whole post of mine show that you are not listening, and not willing to listen. you wrap yourself up in the claim of "I'm quoting scripture, so how can I be wrong?", and are avoiding answering what I stated.

 

[nobdysfool]

The problem is, the premise of "God-hardening-Pharaoh-TOWARDS-sin", makes God responsible for evil. Knowing God's nature (as I know you do), do you believe that's possible?

1 Kings 22 refutes you entirely. God authorized a lying spirit to go and speak lies in the mouths of Ahab;s prophets. In fact, He was looking for a way to do just that, and the lying spirit volunteered. God had a definite end in mind (Ahab falling at Ramoth-gilead) and ordained the means to that end. This completely overturns your contention. God hardening Pharaoh's heart does not make God responsible for evil. Your logic is faulty because you don't understand the concept.

 

[IamAdopted]

Philippians 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake, but it has been granted to you by God for Christ's sake to believe." You can't believe unless God gives you faith.

 

[Ben johnson]

Philippians 1:29, "For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake, but it has been granted to you by God for Christ's sake to believe." You can't believe unless God gives you faith.

What does "granted" mean? "Compelled"? Or "allowed"?

 

[IamAdopted]

Given..

 

[Thekla]

Humans were not created ex nihilo, they were created from the dust of the ground, and made alive by the breath of God.

so: humans were created good, received the breath of God, were "forced" to sin by God resulting in the fall ...

is that correct, or am I missing something

 

[nobdysfool]

so: humans were created good, received the breath of God, were "forced" to sin by God resulting in the fall ...

is that correct, or am I missing something

No, neither I or any other Calvinist has said that God 'forced" Adam to sin. Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[Thekla]

No, neither I or any other Calvinist has said that God 'forced" Adam to sin. Where do you come up with this stuff?

thats why its helpful to me to have you explain; I was using your musical instrument analogy applied to humans. Please feel free to correct my mis-apprehension.

 

[Rick Otto]

What does "granted" mean? "Compelled"? Or "allowed"?

Either way, it means our belief was not of ourselves.
What size "I'm finaly a Calvinist" T shirt shall I order for you?

 

[Rick Otto]

so: humans were created good, received the breath of God, were "forced" to sin by God resulting in the fall ...

is that correct, or am I missing something

You forgot the shake before the bake.
Predestination "force" is applied before creation.
Unless you're a Doris Dayist and believe in Que sera, sera ("Whatever will be, will be")