How, then, is the Calvinist refuted? (2)

[Ben johnson]

sister .... it takes faith to trust God beyond the good stuff ...

I thought faith was sovereignly GIFTED!

 

[Ben johnson]

This thread has gone on for a long time; even been "re-started". We make no progress.

What if we boil it down to one question?

Is faith a sovereign gift to us by God, BEFORE we turn to Him, or is each man given the ability TO believe and then God receives those WHO turn to Him?

This is the question that will "make or break" Calvinism, or Responsible Grace.

Please support your answer with Scriptures...

 

[Rick Otto]

Ben johnson;
What if we boil it down to one question?

Is faith a sovereign gift to us by God, BEFORE we turn to Him,...

You can't turn to Him in faith unless He's given you some. He gives it to you as a fruit of His saving grace.
You get grace, you come spiritualy alive, you believe.

or is each man given the ability TO believe and then God receives those WHO turn to Him?

No. All are only given the innate knowlege He exists, and fools deny it in their hearts (Romans 1:20ish)

This is the question that will "make or break" Calvinism, or Responsible Grace.

Please support your answer with Scriptures...[/quote]
Now that I've made it, we can claim progress.
I'm still impressed by your admission that faith is a fruti of the Holy Spirit. I will probably never forget that.

 

[frumanchu]

And why is that, Fru?

Ben, the offer still stands for reconciliation. Every attempt I have made at it has been rebuffed. Much of the conflict between us could have (and can still) be avoided with a few simple apologies and a tangible commitment to open and honest discussion...on both sides.

We need not hash this out here...PM or email would be sufficient, but I would very much like to put past issues behind us and move forward under new circumstances. That's all I've ever sought, but certain things have to happen for that to come to pass.

In the meantime, my questions remain wholly valid and beg for an answer.

 

[nobdysfool]

And why is that, Fru?

Ben, even though you won't admit it, the reason is clear. you cannot refute what Fru has said, and all your claims to the contrary are so much hot air. Any time you get cornered, you disappear, and never answer the hard questions that expose RG as false. We've seen it time and again. I cornered you on some things, and you disappeared. That is a fact. Your claims of 100% refutation of Calvinism are empty and false. You know they are, but you won't admit it. You have too much invested in your view to back down now. And that is sad.

 

[cygnusx1]

I thought faith was sovereignly GIFTED!

you thought right !

 

[vekarppe]

What if we boil it down to one question?

Is faith a sovereign gift to us by God, BEFORE we turn to Him, or is each man given the ability TO believe and then God receives those WHO turn to Him?

I believe in responsibility of man. We have free will, and we make decisions. This means we have also freedom and ability to decide how to react to the Gospel; we either reject or accept it. If someone is willing to come, nothing can prevent him to do so. But, as R. C. Sproul says, every choice we "make is determined by something. There is a reason for it, a desire behind it." And, "How can our choices be determined but not coerced? Because they are determined by something within --- by what we are and by what we desire. They are determined by ourselves." And because of moral depravity, man is not willing to turn towards holiness and light, and so, according to Scripture, we are,by nature, children of wrath. "We still have free will, but we have lost our liberty", said Augustine. Our freedom or ability is not free in absolute sense, it is limited and determined by ourselves, and because of depraved creatures we have no ability or freedom toward God. We cannot, we are not free to, choose or select our nature. This is where we need God.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, the offer still stands for reconciliation. Every attempt I have made at it has been rebuffed. Much of the conflict between us could have (and can still) be avoided with a few simple apologies and a tangible commitment to open and honest discussion...on both sides.

There has been no "conflict between us", it's one-sided. I have not been hostile, only defensive.

I have often called you my "saved Christian brother" --- what was your most recent response to that?

but certain things have to happen for that to come to pass.

I agree; and until they do, it's still better if I do not respond to your posts.

I wish you only good things, Fru; all of God's blessings, and Christ's maturity. May He use both of us in His Great Harvest.

 

[Ben johnson]

You can't turn to Him in faith unless He's given you some. He gives it to you as a fruit of His saving grace.

Let's suppose that's true; I will accept your statement, for the sake of discussion.

Is there anything in Scripture that asserts "God gives sufficient faith for salvation, to only a FEW whom He has sovereignly CHOSEN"?

You get grace, you come spiritually alive, you believe.

The difference between us, is how you perceive the word, "GET".

How do we "get" grace? You perceive it's a selective choice by God.

I perceive it's univerally given to ALL ("God is the Savior of ALL MEN..."), but it must be consciously RECEIVED by faith (..."above-all believers". 1Tim4:10)

No. All are only given the innate knowlege He exists, and fools deny it in their hearts (Romans 1:20ish)

Yet --- the unsaved, perceiving the Gospel as "FOOLISH", can believe through the foolishness[/u] (according to 1Cor1:21).

Now that I've made it, we can claim progress.

You haven't given any Scriptures...

I'm still impressed by your admission that faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

We've also discussed different kinds of faith. There is a kind of faith that is a spiritual gift; given to one believer and not to another. 1Cor12:9. There is a "measure of faith", given to ALL believers (Rom12:3).

SAVING-faith --- comes from men's hearts (Rom10:10), comes from wisdom by studying the Scripture (2Tim3:16), but studying the Scripture the truth of Jesus can be RESISTED (John5:39-40).

I will probably never forget that.

If the Son "draws all men to Himself" (John12:32), then the Spirit does speak to men's hearts; but indwells them upon belief.

Look at 2Cor3:16; men TURN to God, and THEN the veil blinding their eyes to Christ is removed.

Look at Ezk36:26-27, and 11:18-21; in 11:18 men turn to God and away from abominations, and THEN He gives them new hearts. But in 21 those who REFUSE to turn, God will bring their choice down upon their heads.

Cite the verses, Rick.

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, even though you won't admit it, the reason is clear. you cannot refute what Fru has said, and all your claims to the contrary are so much hot air.

Every last "claim" of Calvinism, has been refuted, with Scripture.

Any time you get cornered, you disappear, and never answer the hard questions that expose RG as false.

There are times in my life when I'm required in the "real world"; a funeral, medical events, etcetera; I've always returned and answered whatever questions.

I've answered with such detail, that I'm often criticized for "volumnous posts". I'm charged with "not posting enough", and "posting too much"; it's almost as if I can't win.

Each "hard question that exposes RG as false", has been answered. But the responses to my answers, generally have "bluster" but few (if any) verses. I mean you no disrespect, my friend and brother.

We've seen it time and again. I cornered you on some things, and you disappeared. That is a fact. Your claims of 100% refutation of Calvinism are empty and false. You know they are, but you won't admit it. You have too much invested in your view to back down now. And that is sad.

I know, that the more I study, the clearer "Responsible Grace" becomes to me.

Look at John10:26, a verse that has long been held to assert "you do not believe savingly in Me, because you are not my predestined-sheep". But context clearly shows He's saying: "You do not believe that I'm the Messiah, because you're not believing-in-Me and therefore My sheep." (Context, includes verse 9.)

And no verse thought to espouse "sovereign predestined election", has withstood context.

If you think some do, please post them and we'll discuss them. (But usually the answer to that request, is "We've already done it, we're not gonna do it again, you're refuted".



Verse 38 solves the problem, once and for all. "My works give testament to Me; if you do not believe Me, then believe My works, and you will understand I am in the Father and the Father is in Me."

In no way does it make sense with "predestination", for Jesus to be saying "believe in Me, by recognizing My God-inspired works".

This connects directly with the rebuke given to Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, Matt11:21-24; they SAW His works, and REFUSED to believe. Jesus said: "If THEY had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have believed; I tell you it will go better for THEM in the Final Judgment, than for YOU!!!"

 

[Ben johnson]

you thought right !

 

[Ben johnson]

I believe in responsibility of man.

Calvinists say "man is responsible", but deny the concept of "CAUSAL" which is inseparable from "responsible".

No one enters Hell but by his OWN choice; and even THIS is conflict --- because Calvinists say "man freely chooses but CONFINED to his depraved heart".

If "grace is irreistible" (for the sovereign-elect), and if "depravity is irresistible" (for the unchosen), then men do not have free will.

We have free will, and we make decisions. This means we have also freedom and ability to decide how to react to the Gospel; we either reject or accept it. If someone is willing to come, nothing can prevent him to do so. But, as R. C. Sproul says, every choice we "make is determined by something. There is a reason for it, a desire behind it." And, "How can our choices be determined but not coerced?

"Determined but not coerced"? If I operate on a violent man's brain, and rewire him so that he become gentle and kind, is his kindness FREELY CHOSEN (though "determined")?

Because they are determined by something within --- by what we are and by what we desire. They are determined by ourselves."

Look at Deut30:15-19. Does man have a choice, or not?

And because of moral depravity, man is not willing to turn towards holiness and light...

Please show me anywhere that a man, any man, cannot turn to holiness and light.[/b] Indeed --- look at Acts10:34-35. God welcomes those who fear Him and seek righteousness.

The partiality, is the opposite of that. Do you recognize that "predestination is the partiality that God is NOT"?

and so, according to Scripture, we are,by nature, children of wrath. "We still have free will, but we have lost our liberty", said Augustine.

Augustine diverted greatly from theological thought. Was he Scriptural, or not?

Our freedom or ability is not free in absolute sense, it is limited and determined by ourselves, and because of depraved creatures we have no ability or freedom toward God. We cannot, we are not free to, choose or select our nature. This is where we need God.

Consider that the universal call TO salvation, has sufficient power to OVERCOME depravity.

Nowhere will you find the thought that "not everyone is sincerely called to salvation".

Look at the parable of Matt22:2-14. ALL are called, but FEW (those who CHOSE to come and wear clean clothes), are chosen...

 

[cygnusx1]

SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR , ALL MEN DO NOT HAVE FAITH , it doesn't say all men do not exercise their self-made faith , it simply states "all men have not faith " so a gift a grant is perfectly biblical and logical , also , remember who thanks someone for something that they didn't give , but thanksgiving for men's faith is a NewTestament norm

2 Thessalonians 1:3


Paul’s epistles overflow with this spirit. He thanks God for the faith of the church in Rome which was being proclaimed throughout the whole earth (Rom. 1:8). He thanks God for how the church at Philippi was participating in the Gospel “from the first day until now” (Phil. 1:3-5). He thanks God for the faith, love and hope which was being evidenced in the church at Colossae (Col. 1:3-5). He thanks God for his dear brother, Philemon, who demonstrated refreshing love toward his brethren (Philemon 4-7). In the two letters to the young church at Thessalonica, his heart bursts in thanks to God for their faith, love, and hope (1:2,3- both epistles), for their acceptance of the Word as the Word of God (2:13), for their firm stand in the Lord (3:9), and for their being chosen of God for salvation (II Th. 2:13).​

 

[frumanchu]

There has been no "conflict between us", it's one-sided. I have not been hostile, only defensive.

I have often called you my "saved Christian brother" --- what was your most recent response to that?

I have never said nor implied anything contrary to that, Ben.

It is NOT a one-sided issue between us. I have on several occasions provided you with evidence from your own words that you have blatantly misrepresented me. I have tried always to give you the benefit of the doubt that you were doing so unintentionally, but you steadfastly refused to be corrected. On only one occasion did I ever receive an apology from you for doing so...and then within weeks you proceeded to repeat the same misrepresentation all over again.

Not all that long ago I sought to work with you to find common ground, and we made good progress...yet inexplicably you completely reversed field and seemed to almost intentionally avoid agreeing on anything. It was your way or no way at all.

I agree; and until they do, it's still better if I do not respond to your posts.

What is it you are expecting from me, Ben?

 

[cygnusx1]

Consider that the universal call TO salvation, has sufficient power to OVERCOME depravity.

it does ??????? then everyone who hears the good news is saved !!!!!!!!

Nowhere will you find the thought that "not everyone is sincerely called to salvation".

explain why the Gospel can then be called a stumblingblock , to make men fall ......

Look at the parable of Matt22:2-14. ALL are called, but FEW (those who CHOSE to come and wear clean clothes), are chosen...

yes , a clear distiinction is being drawn , hence the "but" .

everyone here reading this can see just how intolerable scripture is to ben and how he has to change it , blatantly reversing what scripture says without even so much as a blush! where does it say that .........."but few are (those who chose to come and wear clean clothes) chosen" ?

 

[nobdysfool]

Every last "claim" of Calvinism, has been refuted, with Scripture. There are times in my life when I'm required in the "real world"; a funeral, medical events, etcetera; I've always returned and answered whatever questions.

I've answered with such detail, that I'm often criticized for "volumnous posts". I'm charged with "not posting enough", and "posting too much"; it's almost as if I can't win.

Each "hard question that exposes RG as false", has been answered. But the responses to my answers, generally have "bluster" but few (if any) verses. I mean you no disrespect, my friend and brother. I know, that the more I study, the clearer "Responsible Grace" becomes to me.

Look at John10:26, a verse that has long been held to assert "you do not believe savingly in Me, because you are not my predestined-sheep". But context clearly shows He's saying: "You do not believe that I'm the Messiah, because you're not believing-in-Me and therefore My sheep." (Context, includes verse 9.)

And no verse thought to espouse "sovereign predestined election", has withstood context.

If you think some do, please post them and we'll discuss them. (But usually the answer to that request, is "We've already done it, we're not gonna do it again, you're refuted".



Verse 38 solves the problem, once and for all. "My works give testament to Me; if you do not believe Me, then believe My works, and you will understand I am in the Father and the Father is in Me."

In no way does it make sense with "predestination", for Jesus to be saying "believe in Me, by recognizing My God-inspired works".

This connects directly with the rebuke given to Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum, Matt11:21-24; they SAW His works, and REFUSED to believe. Jesus said: "If THEY had seen what YOU have seen, THEY would have believed; I tell you it will go better for THEM in the Final Judgment, than for YOU!!!"

Reply to these falsehoods will have to wait until I'm back home. I''m flying today, from California, where I've been all week, back to Ohio. I'll try to pick up on this Sunday or Monday.

 

[vekarppe]

Ben johnson,

I gave my answer. Being separated from God, the mankind became morally depraved and was enslaved under sin; our "hearts were darkened." Maybe it is not wrong to say, that in this state man hates holiness, why he also flee from God. Surely we still have free will, but our decisions are "determined by what we are and by what we desire", as R. C. Sproul said. We are free to do as we will, but we are not free, however, to choose or select our nature.

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Ben johnson;Let's suppose that's true; I will accept your statement, for the sake of discussion.

You already accepted it for the sake of truth not discussion, Ben:
Ga 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Is there anything in Scripture that asserts "God gives sufficient faith for salvation, to only a FEW whom He has sovereignly CHOSEN"?

That is a different issue. Let's concentrate on reaffirming your recognition that faith is not of ourselves, shall we?
That way, our discussions won't get unreal.

The difference between us, is how you perceive the word, "GET".

I don't think so. I think our difference is in perceiving wherefrom we get.

How do we "get" grace? You perceive it's a selective choice by God.

Only in the case of saving grace. The grace of providence is to all.

I perceive it's univerally given to ALL ("God is the Savior of ALL MEN..."),

Only as opposed to savior of just Jews.
All kinds of men, not just Jews.

but it must be consciously RECEIVED by faith (..."above-all believers". 1Tim4:10)

Yes, with faith which we agree is the fruit of an already resident Holy Spirit.

Yet --- the unsaved, perceiving the Gospel as "FOOLISH", can believe through the foolishness[/u] (according to 1Cor1:21).

That is foolishness. It is foolish only to those who perish!

1Co 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You haven't given any Scriptures...

Yes I have. Repeatedly.

We've also discussed different kinds of faith.

Yes, & different kinds of grace, all from the same source!

here is a kind of faith that is a spiritual gift; given to one believer and not to another. 1Cor12:9. There is a "measure of faith", given to ALL believers (Rom12:3).

Whatever, all given by God.

SAVING-faith --- comes from men's hearts (Rom10:10), comes from wisdom by studying the Scripture (2Tim3:16),

Rom 10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
With the heart, not from the heart.

but studying the Scripture the truth of Jesus can be RESISTED (John5:39-40).

Doesn't change the facts.

If the Son "draws all men to Himself" (John12:32), then the Spirit does speak to men's hearts; but indwells them upon belief.

Whatever. Doesn't change the fact that faith is a fruit of The Spirit, not of ourselves.

Cite the verses, Rick.

Ok:
Ga 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Faith is a thing of the Spirit of God that natural man receiveth not, Ben.

Welcom to the Reformed Faith, brother.
You are finaly Calvinist.

 

[savedbygrace57]

ben says

Quote:
SAVING-faith --- comes from men's hearts (Rom10:10), comes from wisdom by studying the Scripture (2Tim3:16),

Jer 17

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

So how can a unrenewed heart study scripture to salvation ? let alone believe on christ..

 

[cygnusx1]

ben is the most popular guy in soterilogy , men are queuing up for an audience !