How, then, is the Calvinist refuted? (2)

[vekarppe]

SAVING-faith --- comes from men's hearts (Rom10:10)

Where does Romams 10:10 say so?

 

[Epiphoskei]

It doesn't. It reads "with his heart," not "from his heart." And as it says earlier, "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart," thus the belief is not coming from a heart which is isolated from the work of God: the word implanted.

 

[cygnusx1]

It doesn't. It reads "with his heart," not "from his heart." And as it says earlier, "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart," thus the belief is not coming from a heart which is isolated from the work of God: the word implanted.

hi bro , he's been corrected on this before , but as usual in one ear and out the other. Just watch carefully bens methods.

 

[Philothei]

ben is the most popular guy in soterilogy , men are queuing up for an audience !

Actually I admit it ....I love Ben's posts
They make sense and the way he give exegesis is according to the spirit of the scripture, as expressed by the apostolic community of NT.
God bless,
Philothei

 

[Ben johnson]

SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR , ALL MEN DO NOT HAVE FAITH...

2Thess3:2. Does it say why "not all men have faith"? In 2Tim2, Paul discusses how "if we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we DENY Him, He will deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for he cannot deny Himself."

It is only a question of coming to agreement that "live-with-Him", is "saved"; and "reign-with-Him", is also "saved".

AND, "denying-Him", is not saved, and "faithless" is not saved (even though HE remains faithful).

it doesn't say all men do not exercise their self-made faith, it simply states "all men have not faith" so a gift a grant is perfectly biblical and logical...

But not asserted in Scripture...

also , remember who thanks someone for something that they didn't give , but thanksgiving for men's faith is a NewTestament norm

Throughout Scripture, "YOUR faith has saved you", is the norm...

2 Thessalonians 1:3

Paul’s epistles overflow with this spirit. He thanks God for the faith of the church in Rome which was being proclaimed throughout the whole earth (Rom. 1:8). He thanks God for how the church at Philippi was participating in the Gospel “from the first day until now” (Phil. 1:3-5). He thanks God for the faith, love and hope which was being evidenced in the church at Colossae (Col. 1:3-5). He thanks God for his dear brother, Philemon, who demonstrated refreshing love toward his brethren (Philemon 4-7). In the two letters to the young church at Thessalonica, his heart bursts in thanks to God for their faith, love, and hope (1:2,3- both epistles), for their acceptance of the Word as the Word of God (2:13), for their firm stand in the Lord (3:9), and for their being chosen of God for salvation (II Th. 2:13).

How do you read 2Cor7:6ff? Paul rejoices that his words made the Corinthians sorrowful; not at their sorrow, but that the sorrow was to the point of REPENTANCE.

The "sorrow", was "according to the will of God". Which, stated by Jesus, is that "all who see Jesus and believe, be saved".

Yet --- "repentance" came from "sorrow at Paul's letter". Can somehow God's sovereign will be seen as granting/gifting repentance, rather than seeing "conviction" at Paul's words?

 

[Ben johnson]

Consider that the universal call TO salvation, has sufficient power to OVERCOME depravity.

it does ??????? then everyone who hears the good news is saved !!!!!!!! [/quote]Why is it that you cannot consider "conscious thought"? Men choose --- God, belief --- or sin and disbelief.

explain why the Gospel can then be called a stumblingblock, to make men fall ......

Cite the passage. I'm thinking Rom9:32-33 --- and the reason is clearly stated:

"BECAUSE they prusied (the law of righteousness) by WORKS rather than by FAITH".

yes , a clear distiinction is being drawn , hence the "but".

everyone here reading this can see just how intolerable scripture is to ben and how he has to change it , blatantly reversing what scripture says without even so much as a blush! where does it say that .........."but few are (those who chose to come and wear clean clothes) chosen" ?

Who were called? Everyone. Who were chosen? Those who came --- and clothed themselves. Where is the "reversing"?

 

[Ben johnson]

Reply to these falsehoods will have to wait until I'm back home. I''m flying today, from California, where I've been all week, back to Ohio. I'll try to pick up on this Sunday or Monday.

May you have a safe flight, and may the person you sit next to turn to you and ask, "Say, do you know anything about this Jesus stuff?"

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben johnson,

I gave my answer. Being separated from God, the mankind became morally depraved and was enslaved under sin; our "hearts were darkened." Maybe it is not wrong to say, that in this state man hates holiness, why he also flee from God. Surely we still have free will, but our decisions are "determined by what we are and by what we desire", as R. C. Sproul said. We are free to do as we will, but we are not free, however, to choose or select our nature.

Man naturally hates holiness, always flees from God; he is morally depraved and his heart is darkened.

...yet, there are those who "receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE". Luke8:13

You will say "they were not REALLY believing, because they FELL to temptation/persecution/affliction".

But --- how can "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, GOD-FLEEING man", receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE???

There is no difference in Jesus' words, between the BEGINNING belief of those in Lk8:13, and the beginning belief of those in Lk8:15. It is how they ended that matters.

The difference --- is that the second, "received the word with an honest heart, and HELD FAST and bore fruit with perseverance".

Not that "God decided anything"....

 

[vekarppe]

But --- how can "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, GOD-FLEEING man", receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE???

Can you give answer to that.

 

[Ben johnson]

You already accepted it for the sake of truth not discussion, Ben:
Ga 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

We've established there are "different kinds of faith". The fruit of the Spirit comes to those who walk by the Spirit. Verse 16.

Besides, the letter to Galatia is a poor reference for RT; the Galatians were saved, and fell. Verse 5:4 is very clear.

That is a different issue. Let's concentrate on reaffirming your recognition that faith is not of ourselves, shall we?

Saving-faith, is.

That way, our discussions won't get unreal.

We'd hate for that to happen....

I don't think so. I think our difference is in perceiving wherefrom we get.

Uhm, was that English?

Only in the case of saving grace. The grace of providence is to all.

"Grace is to all"? You're coming around to my side, brother.

Only as opposed to savior of just Jews.
All kinds of men, not just Jews.

Huh-uh. Verses like 1Jn2:2 very clearly use "holos kosmos", meaning "all the world".

Yes, with faith which we agree is the fruit of an already resident Holy Spirit.

You haven't established that. The "fruit of faith" in Gal5:22, comes to those who WALK by the Spirit 5:16.

That is foolishness. It is foolish only to those who perish!

"God is well-pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.

It's clear to me...

1Co 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Still ignoring verse 12; the "spiritual-things" of verse 14, are the same "spiritual-things" of verse 12 --- which in verse 12 are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit.

Know any way to "receive" the Spirit, apart from "saving-faith"???

Yes I have. Repeatedly.

You did here; good job.

Whatever, all given by God.

Huh-uh; look at Heb11:6 --- God receives the faith of those who come, who seek.

Rom 10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
With the heart, not from the heart.

With his heart, he believes; Rom6:17 says "from the heart you became obedient". Shall we argue conjunctions?

Doesn't change the facts.

That's true, it doesn't it establishes them. Jesus rebukes them TOWARDS belief. His speach (John5:39-47) makes absolutely no sense under a "predestined paradigm".

Whatever. Doesn't change the fact that faith is a fruit of The Spirit, not of ourselves.

You haven't established that in Scripture...

Ok:
Ga 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal5:16.

1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor2:12.

Faith is a thing of the Spirit of God that natural man receiveth not, Ben.

Yes, it is; "WHEN we were dead in sins ("natural man"!) God made us alive ...by grace through faith"...

Welcom to the Reformed Faith, brother.
You are finally Calvinist.

If I am your brother, it is a privilege.

...if I am "finally Calvinist", then you have proven your position with Scripture.

Have you?

 

[Ben johnson]

ben says
Quote:
SAVING-faith --- comes from men's hearts (Rom10:10), comes from wisdom by studying the Scripture (2Tim3:16),

Jer 17

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

So how can a unrenewed heart study scripture to salvation ? let alone believe on christ..

Have you read the rest of Jeremiah 17? He writes:

"Cursed is the man whose heart turns away from the Lord; ...blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord.

Does that sound like "gifted faith" or "sovereign choice"?

Look at the verses following 9; though the heart is deceitful and wicked, God TESTS the heart to give to each man according to his ways.

Make sense now?

Almost always, the immediate context demonstrates the real meaning.

 

[Ben johnson]

ben is the most popular guy in soterilogy , men are queuing up for an audience !

May my words only bring glory and honor and praise to Christ whom we serve.

...and if we all do not come to agreement, may our love and fellowship increase, that the world sees Him in us, and wants what we have.

 

[Ben johnson]

But --- how can "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, GOD-FLEEING man", receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE???

Can you give answer to that.

Yes, I can!

Their beginning beliefs, were the same. It was how they ended that made the difference.

One succumbed to "temptation/affliction/persecution".
The other "received it with an honest and good heart, held fast and bore fruit with perseverance.

Identically, as Heb6:7-8 says; one field, tilled. IF it brings forth GOOD fruit, it is blessed --- but IF it brings thorns and thistles, it is cursed and burned.

The tilling does not determine the blessing or the curse; the fruit does.

 

[Ben johnson]

Their beginning beliefs, were the same. It was how they ended that made the difference.

Rom1:17 says "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith --- the just shall live by faith."

Beginning faith --- "faith the start".

Ending faith --- "faith the goal".

Anyone ever done a word-search on "steadfast"? Interesting results...

 

[vekarppe]

Yes, I can!

Their beginning beliefs, were the same. It was how they ended that made the difference.

One succumbed to "temptation/affliction/persecution".
The other "received it with an honest and good heart, held fast and bore fruit with perseverance.

Identically, as Heb6:7-8 says; one field, tilled. IF it brings forth GOOD fruit, it is blessed --- but IF it brings thorns and thistles, it is cursed and burned.

The tilling does not determine the blessing or the curse; the fruit does.

This does not answer to the question, how can "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, GOD-FLEEING man", receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE???"

 

[cygnusx1]

Rom1:17 says "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith --- the just shall live by faith."

Beginning faith --- "faith the start".

Ending faith --- "faith the goal".

Anyone ever done a word-search on "steadfast"? Interesting results...

WHAT TRANSLATION IS THAT ?

 

[Ben johnson]

This does not answer to the question, how can "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, GOD-FLEEING man", receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE???"

Because unregenerated men CAN believe savingly in Jesus. Nothing in Scripture opposes that.

The point, is that first Calvinism asserts "totally depraved men cannot believe in any measure; they are committed to rebellion, they hate God."

Then, in light of verses like Lk8:13, it's asserted "they CAN believe, but it's only superficial "professing"; they don't really believe SAVINGLY." This doesn't explain the "joy".

Nothing in the text indicates they didn't begin "believing savingly". But persecution/affliction/temtation, caused them to fall. Heb6:7-8 is the perfect connection; the consequence is determined by their fruit. Calvinism claims the reverse --- "consequence" (blessing or curse, "good soil" or "bad soil"), determines the fruit (falling, or steadfastness).

That's why I suggested searching on "steadfastness". It returns 2Pet3:17, Col1:21-23, Heb3:6 and 14, for instance....

 

[cygnusx1]

POST 911. SPEAKING OF TURNING ;


Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old. turn 1Ki 18:37 Ps 80:3,7,19 85:4 Jer 31:18 32:39,40 Ex 36:25-27,37 Hab 3:2


THESE PEOPLE KNEW that it is God who turns men ........ how is it that Christians often don't know ?

 

[vekarppe]

Because unregenerated men CAN believe savingly in Jesus. Nothing in Scripture opposes that.

So "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, God-fleeing" man can turn towards God, and cooperate with the Spirit of holiness, without that his "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, God-fleeing" nature is first changed by God?

The point, is that first Calvinism asserts "totally depraved men cannot believe in any measure; they are committed to rebellion, they hate God."

Calvinism assert that man cannot believe because man is morally depraved, that is, man is not willing to come.

 

[cygnusx1]

So "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, God-fleeing" man can turn towards God, and cooperate with the Spirit of holiness, without that his "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, God-fleeing" nature is first changed by God?



Calvinism assert that man cannot believe because man is morally depraved, that is, man is not willing to come.

well put bro , Ben is doing the usual straw man , if it were true as he puts it here

The point, is that first Calvinism asserts "totally depraved men cannot believe in any measure; they are committed to rebellion, they hate God."

then how could James speak of none salvivic faith , and how could false brethren apostacize ?