How the fish got it's fingers

[TasManOfGod]

So? Malaria is very painful. And fatal. Rabies shots are also very painful, but better than getting rabies. Surgery is also painful, but less painful than the alternative. As I understand it, serving God is also not without pain. Certainly Jesus suffered a lot of pain when crucified. Should that cure for spiritual death been avoided because it was painful?

It seems that you think prayer will cure you. Well, I hope then that you never see a doctor. That would be hypocrisy to see one, wouldn't it? BTW, ever take any over-the-counter medication? That would also be hypocrisy.

I was referring to the anemia as being painful

Yes the cross was painful but thankfully we dont have to suffer it because Christ did for us. We only have to pick ours up and follow Him.

Yes you are correct. I would be a hypocrite if I went to a doctor and took medication - which I haven't for almost all the time that I have believed - 20 years.

 

[lucaspa]

I was referring to the anemia as being painful

Again, so?

Yes the cross was painful but thankfully we dont have to suffer it because Christ did for us. We only have to pick ours up and follow Him.

And carrying a heavy cross is not painful? Carrying his cross was part of the tortures Jesus was subjected to, remember? They didn't have him carry it out of kindness to him!

Yes you are correct. I would be a hypocrite if I went to a doctor and took medication - which I haven't for almost all the time that I have believed - 20 years.

Then let's see what happens to you as you get older and degenerative diseases start to come into play. BTW, do you have medical insurance?

 

[TasManOfGod]

And carrying a heavy cross is not painful? Carrying his cross was part of the tortures Jesus was subjected to, remember? They didn't have him carry it out of kindness to him!

Jesus did not promise that there would not be tribulation. Are you looking for a pain free salvation are you?

BTW, do you have medical insurance?

Yes It is underwritten by Jesus Christ Inc

 

[lucaspa]

Yes It is underwritten by Jesus Christ Inc

So I trust you won't be one of those that shows up at the ER and expects the rest of us to pay for you.

You never did give me those Bible verses that says you won't get sick if you pray. I don't mind if you make up your own theology as you go along, but I don't have to accept it as orthodox Christianity.

 

[TasManOfGod]

So I trust you won't be one of those that shows up at the ER and expects the rest of us to pay for you.

No the truth is I pay for you

 

[ThePhoenix]

Then let's see what happens to you as you get older and degenerative diseases start to come into play. BTW, do you have medical insurance?

Now that's just rude. If someone is going to have enough faith in God that they say "I don't need modern medicine" I really don't have a problem with that. I myself am a firm believer in limited medication, and besides yearly checkups have only gone recently to verify that I did not have mononucleosis (he offered me antibiotics once he verified that. I told him that I would bet it was a virus. He agreed. I asked him what antibiotics would do. He replied "well, not much." I thanked him for his time). I don't even take painkillers, except in extreme circumstances. Now for major medical procedures, well, I have faith that God gave us our hands and our brains for a reason. So I use them.

 

[lucaspa]

Jesus did not promise that there would not be tribulation. Are you looking for a pain free salvation are you?

Not at all. You seemed to be doing so when you complained that the cure was painful. You seemed to want a cure that was not.

 

[lucaspa]

No the truth is I pay for you

Not unless you have medical insurance. If you do, you should make sure you opt out of it since you are never going to use it. Your answer indicated that you didn't.

Tasman, I have never heard of anyone -- even SDAs, Christian Scientists, and JWs -- that felt that God would completely prevent sickness. Christians of all types use doctors and modern medical care. Therefore you can understand why I am highly skeptical that 1) you have never used any over-the-counter medication (not even aspirin or Pepto-Bismal) and 2) are going to refrain from going to a doctor when sick.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Taxes pay for medical treatment here and I pay taxes.
Tell me is part of our covenant with God that He will give us sickness. I say no so I refuse to accept it if it aint got God's name on it .
Jesus said the things that I do you will do also. Did Jesus get sick. If He did I would gladly do likewise

 

[lucaspa]

Now that's just rude. If someone is going to have enough faith in God that they say "I don't need modern medicine" I really don't have a problem with that.

I don't have a problem with it, either. However, I am highly skeptical that Tasman is going to do this. To me, it simply looks like a ploy in the discussion. Having been shown that sickle cell trait is advantageous and does serve as a cure for malaria, he suddenly switched tack and said that he would rather pray to God than have any other cure -- such as a genetic one by evolution.

His exact words were: For me I think prayer to the God who by His grace gave to us redemption from the law of sickness, sin and death, is much better

Now, if he is indeed sincere, I humbly apologize.

I've also been asking him for the Biblical verses that support his claim that Jesus redeemed us from "the laws of sickness". I am skeptical of this statement also because it can easily go downhill to "Only those who sin and don't believe get sick. If you truly believed, you would never get sick." This is, of course, the line that JohnR7 has used on the other board.

So, I am probing aggressively because I sense several problems just over the horizon and want to see if they are really there.

Again, if I am mistaken I do apologize, Tasman.

I told him that I would bet it was a virus. He agreed. I asked him what antibiotics would do. He replied "well, not much." I thanked him for his time).

But this was based not on faith that God would cure but on the knowledge that antibiotics don't do anything for viral infections and that indiscriminate use is actually harmful because it causes the evolution of resistant strains, right?

Now for major medical procedures, well, I have faith that God gave us our hands and our brains for a reason. So I use them.

Ah, but that is quite different from the claims of Tasman. Tasman claims that prayer alone is sufficient and that he would not use medical treatment.

Now, I haven't asked him about trauma, because he specifically said "sickness". Trauma isn't sickness.

 

[lucaspa]

Taxes pay for medical treatment here and I pay taxes.

Taxes pay for those with no other means of payment. Since I have private insurance, taxes aren't used for any medical care I might get.

Tell me is part of our covenant with God that He will give us sickness. I say no so I refuse to accept it if it aint got God's name on it .

Sickness is not "given" by God. It is part of a complete creation. The Hebrews of the OT often looked upon epidemics as something God dished out to enemies or themselves as punishment. But we know better now. Like avalanches or earthquakes or hurricanes that also injure and kill people, sickness is not directly sent by God. It is simply part of the complete universe He had to create if our lives were to have meaning.

Jesus said the things that I do you will do also. Did Jesus get sick. If He did I would gladly do likewise

Jesus was referring to his conscious actions such as helping the poor, succoring the sick, taking care of those in prison, etc. How did you manage to mangle it to this?

The Bible doesn't say whether Jesus ever got sick or not. That would not have fit the purpose of the gospels, which were written to convince people that Jesus was the Son of God (see the end of the gospel of John). So a lot about Jesus' life is simply not mentioned. Most people lived for 3-4 days under crucifixion but Jesus died in only about 3 hours. The implication is that Jesus was sickly and not very robust. That would fit in with why many people rejected Jesus as Messiah. The Messiah was supposed to be a great warrior. If Jesus did not have the health, physique, and stamina to be a warrior, that would help explain why most Jews rejected him as Messiah.

 

[TasManOfGod]

The implication is that Jesus was sickly and not very robust

Jesus death was due to lack of blood ie He bled to death due to the more than excessive battering He had received prior to the crucifixion. The Romans knew of the possibility of this hence the spear test into His heart- the liquid (clear) that came out indicated that there was no blood left in His system. ie. He bled to death This means that Jesus gave all he had to redeem all of us including you and I. He could do no more - He gave all that He had, He had no more to give.
To say that Jesus was sickly in response to His suffering to me is very much close to blasphemy and I would hope you ask forgiveness for your lack of understanding.

 

[lucaspa]

Tasman, I apologize. I accidentally edited your post rather than quote. I had no intention of doing so but I guess being a moderator I can do so if I hit "edit" rather than "quote". It was an accident and I apologize. Some of your original post seems to have been lost. I will be much more careful in the future.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Tasman, I apologize. I accidentally edited your post rather than quote. I had no intention of doing so but I guess being a moderator I can do so if I hit "edit" rather than "quote". It was an accident and I apologize. Some of your original post seems to have been lost. I will be much more careful in the future.

That's OK You are forgiven

 

[TasManOfGod]

Here is some confirmation on what I was saying on Jesus death on the Cross:
-

There were no questions to the state of one’s health when they left the cross. Second, the nails in his wrists would have hit major blood vessels causing massive amounts of bleeding. On top of that, there was the piercing of his side after his death. In this way, the Romans were basically checking to see if Jesus was still alive. In reality, Jesus bled to death for six hours. The human body has about two gallons of blood, within the confines in which he was crucified; Jesus could have easily bled to death. This statement is back by the Journal of American Medical Association dated March 21st, 1986. The article also goes on to explain that with the piercing of the side, his right lung would have also been punctured. They also said that for people to say Jesus survived all this would go against what modern medicine would say.

from this site:
http://www.runet.edu/~jmandel/crucifixion.htm