How strict is too strict??

[DonVA]

Yea, my kid came to me pretty much informing me that I couldn't hit him since he was a foster child.

While he's right, I had to let him know that there WILL be discipline. I told him that his age, and with the restrictions foster parents are under, his punishments would last WAY longer than a spanking would take, as it would involve revoking privileges, doing additional chores, writing apologies, repairing or replacing lost or damaged items...

I've had to be creative, and it's taking him forever (3 years now) to get the message, and he will STILL behave just long enough to get the privilege back before he'll revert back to the old, unacceptable behaviors.

Now he's been told that he can expect to not get anything he wants until I see the behaviors I want.

 

[sreno7]

Don't be fooled into thinking that strict rules will keep your kids in line. Many families have found that the rules that worked for one child had no effect on the others and that one or two rebelled. Sometimes rules CAN be too strict and will cause a child to rebel. Rebellion is natural in the teen years as it is a time for children to become more independent. As we learn we can trust we give more responsibility. I am a single mom and I have to leave my teens home alone so I can work. There is no daycare for 16 year olds. I have only a few rules that I am really stuck on such as dating at 16, no boy/girl sleepovers, ect. My kids are older but they are given more responsiblity as I learn I can trust them. My daughter was not allowed to go the mall without an adult until this year, she is now 15 but I would not want her to hang out there all day either.

 

[DonVA]

I think if my child had been properly disciplined in his younger years, we would not have the repeated issues we have now. He was pretty much left to fend for himself, and to take care of his mother and his younger brother. They were homeless a lot, so "house rules" are foreign to him, and common courtesies were never taught. His mission is to use and manipulate people in any way to get what he wants at that moment. As a result, he currently has no friends his age (they don't give in to his manipulation) despite his participation in afterschool activities, Boy Scouts, drama club, forensics, and the debate team, and spends his time with children three or more years younger than him, or trying to gain money or attention from adults, often using disruptive behavior for his own personal gain.

A lot of his problem is that as a parentified child, he was in charge. For him, it's VERY difficult to be a child, and not very easy to understand that in the REAL world, the adults are in charge, and that rules are in place for valid reasons (his safety, for example). He can't grasp the idea that he is not in charge of the adults in positions of authority.

You're right, as we learn to trust them, we give them more responsibility. Unfortunately for my child, everytime I've given him the opportunity to show me that he can be trusted, he has fallen straight into theft, lies, disrespect, inappropriate contentography, disobedience...and all without remorse. He gets upset because he's been caught, not because he chose to do something wrong.
He would rather argue about being caught than to take responsibility for his actions.

He is now seeing children younger than he being trusted at home alone after school, so in his desire to be more "like the other kids," he is making some progress. It's slow, but there's some. And to clarify, by strict, I do mean "consistent." Whether the punishment for falling short remains the same or not, there are consequences that he has finally learned to expect. Some of them are good (rewards) and some of them are not so good (loss of privileges). The consequences for repeated offenses are strengthened to insure that he didn't misunderstand the message the first time!

He makes the choices as to what sort of consequence he will face when chooses his actions, just like his biological mother, his uncle, and his biological grandfather, who are all currently in jail for commiting assorted felonies.

 

[AngelGirl2525]

Hello,
I new to cf and I am hoping for some christian advice concerning my 13 year old daughter.The great thing is I am not having any problems with her.She is a straight A student,respectful,helpful,and has a strong faith in the Lord.I am forever grateful for these blessings. My concern is that I may be too strict on her? It seems that many if not all of her friends are allowed to do much more than I allow her to do.I am just so concerned for her safety and innocence.I know I cant shelter her from life.But, I would just like to know What other CHRISTIAN parents think.Here are a few rules we have,

Never allowed to stay overnight at friends houses.(although we always welcome her friends to stay over)

No internet except for school work.
No going to the mall without an adult
No boyfriends
Limited secular music and television.

Any thoughts would be appreciated as I do not have any christian friends with teenagers all of my friends have young children.As I do also have two boys ages 5 and 7

God Bless,
Sarahleo

I don't agree with the staying over at a friends house. If the parents will be home and they are decent people I have no problem with letting my kids stay overnight.

My mom was super strict and it worked backwards for her I rebelled more and ended up in a downhill sprial.

 

[Sarah2221]

Your posts always make me think. Your situation is so very, very unique. Your parenting is very strict, but for you and your child it may be the only option, really.

I totally believe in being consistant, but I am curious about your choice of punishments.

I don't think a child learns anything in writing anything 500 times, or sitting face to a wall. I think it would make me very very angry, if I had to do that as a teenager. I'm afraid of him harboring resentment.

I believe in natural consequences, such as - you can't be trusted, then you don't get to do that after school activity you like, because you are obviously not mature enough. He acted out in boyscouts, right? Well, next time - he won't get to go. You stole something, you do chores to pay that...

And I also don't believe in 'don't speak unless given permission' - children, teens - even those who are in deep troubles, has a right to an opinion and the freedom to use it, and there's a difference between being rude, cussing, screaming - and saying 'no, I don't want to'. I wouldn't punish a child for the mere disagreement, or for interupting me.

I think if my child had been properly disciplined in his younger years, we would not have the repeated issues we have now. He was pretty much left to fend for himself, and to take care of his mother and his younger brother. They were homeless a lot, so "house rules" are foreign to him, and common courtesies were never taught. His mission is to use and manipulate people in any way to get what he wants at that moment. As a result, he currently has no friends his age (they don't give in to his manipulation) despite his participation in afterschool activities, Boy Scouts, drama club, forensics, and the debate team, and spends his time with children three or more years younger than him, or trying to gain money or attention from adults, often using disruptive behavior for his own personal gain.

A lot of his problem is that as a parentified child, he was in charge. For him, it's VERY difficult to be a child, and not very easy to understand that in the REAL world, the adults are in charge, and that rules are in place for valid reasons (his safety, for example). He can't grasp the idea that he is not in charge of the adults in positions of authority.

You're right, as we learn to trust them, we give them more responsibility. Unfortunately for my child, everytime I've given him the opportunity to show me that he can be trusted, he has fallen straight into theft, lies, disrespect, inappropriate contentography, disobedience...and all without remorse. He gets upset because he's been caught, not because he chose to do something wrong.
He would rather argue about being caught than to take responsibility for his actions.

He is now seeing children younger than he being trusted at home alone after school, so in his desire to be more "like the other kids," he is making some progress. It's slow, but there's some. And to clarify, by strict, I do mean "consistent." Whether the punishment for falling short remains the same or not, there are consequences that he has finally learned to expect. Some of them are good (rewards) and some of them are not so good (loss of privileges). The consequences for repeated offenses are strengthened to insure that he didn't misunderstand the message the first time!

He makes the choices as to what sort of consequence he will face when chooses his actions, just like his biological mother, his uncle, and his biological grandfather, who are all currently in jail for commiting assorted felonies.

 

[sreno7]

I agree with natural and with logical consequences.

 

[DonVA]

I appreciate your thoughts here, but your suggestions were my first course of action, and they did not drive the message home. As soon as he thought no one was looking, he attempted the exact same things again. Each time, whatever was stolen was returned, or replaced, a privilege was lost or an activity denied. In his mind, stealing or disrespecting someone in the "now" is worth whatever he might lose, so I had to resort to more drastic measures, which might appear to be a waste of time, but that IS the point. He's wasting his time because of his wrong choices and unacceptable behavior.

I know he's harboring anger right now, but he needs to be angry with himself for the choices he's making.

He continues to fall back into old behaviors that, according to him, got him toys when he was younger. Apparently his biological mother would give in to tantrums and constant disrespect to make him shut up or go away. Trust me, the rewards for his good behavior are great. He needs to get tired of making the same exact wrong choices over and over again. Getting caught doing wrong now warrants a "So, what, I can't go on the next campout or something?" response from him. If it's a campout he didn't necessarily care about going on, it was worth it.

He is an inch away from some sort of boot camp. Remember, he comes from a long line of felons. He learned from them, and after nearly three years is still making the same choices. He's upset that he's not being given 14 year-old privileges, to which I can only answer that he will have them when the 10 year-old behaviors are replaced with 14 year-old responsibility.

Until then, he has time to spend with his thoughts while he's pushing a pencil (and, by the way, his handwriting, which had been illegible, has improved.)

 

[sreno7]

I just don't see what writing something over and over teaches( writing lines) Now writing an essay that requires thought and research is a learning experience, writing a letter of apology (which I used to make my son do when he was smaller) that outlines the acknowledgement of what the child did that was wrong, why it is wrong and what the child will do to make right what is wrong is also a great learning experience.

 

[tp65]

I just don't see what writing something over and over teaches( writing lines) Now writing an essay that requires thought and research is a learning experience, writing a letter of apology (which I used to make my son do when he was smaller) that outlines the acknowledgement of what the child did that was wrong, why it is wrong and what the child will do to make right what is wrong is also a great learning experience.

Good ideas. If my son/daughter acted up at an activity I would still let them continue to go but I would go with them. As a youth leader I have noticed that many parents allow their kids to go (knowing that they will act out but the parents get a night off) then get really mad when they find out. Maybe they don't let them go next time but usually the parents who never help also have the worst-behaved kids.
DonVa, you are in a difficult situation and I don't pretend to know what to do but I will pray for you and your son.

 

[DonVA]

I appreciate that.

I have had him write essays and apologies in the past. Having him do more of the same is just that, more of the same. He'll just write the same things he wrote every other time. The behaviors are the same. The exact same. It didn't work before on him, he took it lightly, wasn't sincere, and repeated the offenses the first chance he got. I have to use LONG TERM methods of discipline now. Not every form of punishment needs to teach a lesson. He knows right from wrong and refuses to do right.

What lesson does someone learn by getting thrown into jail for doing something they already knew was wrong?

They lose time that they cannot have back. They miss opportunities to do what "everyone else" can do while they're serving time. I've drawn this comparison for him. I've also drawn the parallel for him by sharing with him that by having to discipline the same behavior over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... It's like waking up to having to write the same sentence over and over... so I know EXACTLY how he feels. I've been writing the same sentences over and over for three years. Every day.

It's boring, it's a waste of time, but it's what he chose to do when he made the wrong choice. Now, each time he commits the same offense, the penalty doubles.

Thanks again for your prayers. He's a smart kid. I can't believe he's just not getting it.

 

[sreno7]

I appreciate that.

I have had him write essays and apologies in the past. Having him do more of the same is just that, more of the same. He'll just write the same things he wrote every other time. The behaviors are the same. The exact same. It didn't work before on him, he took it lightly, wasn't sincere, and repeated the offenses the first chance he got. I have to use LONG TERM methods of discipline now. Not every form of punishment needs to teach a lesson. He knows right from wrong and refuses to do right.

What lesson does someone learn by getting thrown into jail for doing something they already knew was wrong?

They lose time that they cannot have back. They miss opportunities to do what "everyone else" can do while they're serving time. I've drawn this comparison for him. I've also drawn the parallel for him by sharing with him that by having to discipline the same behavior over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... It's like waking up to having to write the same sentence over and over... so I know EXACTLY how he feels. I've been writing the same sentences over and over for three years. Every day.

It's boring, it's a waste of time, but it's what he chose to do when he made the wrong choice. Now, each time he commits the same offense, the penalty doubles.

Thanks again for your prayers. He's a smart kid. I can't believe he's just not getting it.

On the way to work yesterday I was listening to David Jeremiah and he was talking about the difference between Repentence and Remorse. HE said remorse is feeling bad that you got caught or were punished. Repentence is when you feel so badly about what you did that you will never do it again.

 

[DonVA]

On the way to work yesterday I was listening to David Jeremiah and he was talking about the difference between Repentence and Remorse. HE said remorse is feeling bad that you got caught or were punished. Repentence is when you feel so badly about what you did that you will never do it again.

So how do you make a selfish child feel badly for wronging someone else? The ONLY thing he feels bad about is getting caught, or not having what he wants.

I even tried to relay to him that I know exactly how he feels. I wake up every day and have to discipline the exact same unacceptable behaviors I had to correct the day before, which is exactly like having to write the same boring sentence over and over for three years.

He hates to write, as he's been told that he "can't." There are moments during all this that do allow for some praise, such as "See? You CAN sit still and be quiet. You thought you couldn't do it but I always knew you could."

"Look how much your printing has improved since you had to start this! I like the way you allowed each word to have its own space."

I've let him know that learning to hold your tongue and thinking before you speak require the same process. Two seconds of thought.

Here's an example from this weekend, when I told him that while visiting my parents he could speak freely as long as he was responsible with what he had to say:

Mom fixed him a bacon and egg breakfast. No one else (including her) was interested in a hot breakfast, so she did it only for him because she knows he likes bacon and eggs. She placed the plate on the table, let him know it was ready, and the first thing out of his mouth was "You gave me too much bacon. Could you get my milk?"

My mother was standing there APOLOGIZING to him for cooking him breakfast. I jumped in and said "Maybe what you MEANT to say was 'Thank you for making my breakfast.'"

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother. I can't believe the best he could come up with was a way to hurt my mothers feelings for doing something nice for him.

When we got home, I asked him to make a list of all the things my parents have done for him out of the goodness of their hearts, both before and after they actually met him. He came up with a fairly long list, and agreed that his adoptive grandparents were there for him more than his biological family was. I gave him another sheet of paper and asked him to list for me all that he's done for them out of the goodness of HIS heart. And yes, I let him stare at a blank page for thirty minutes.

 

[Sarah2221]

Did he apologize? At least? Does he see what he said was wrong?

I actually don't think he meant to be rude, he just didn't realize before he said it - that it was wrong (or didn't think it through before speaking.)

 

[DonVA]

Did he apologize? At least? Does he see what he said was wrong?

I actually don't think he meant to be rude, he just didn't realize before he said it - that it was wrong (or didn't think it through before speaking.)

I have corrected his abuse of others when they do something nice for him before. His problem is that he doesn't appreciate anything anyone does. He did not apologize, but instead wanted to argue about how much bacon he felt should have. When I reminded him that there could have been NO bacon at all, which would have saved us from having this exchange in the first place, he said "Thank you for the bacon."

If she had placed only two slices of bacon on the plate, he would have complained that there wasn't enough. He is never happy with what anyone does for him and goes out of his way to NOT appreciate it, and then refuses to believe he did something wrong. When I explain to him that the one who fell short in that situation was HIM, he says I'm being mean.

He has been diagnosed with ADHD, for which he is on medication. Like I said, he's a straight A student, so I can't help but think the medication is right on target. He can absolutely focus and keep up with his school work.

If you'd met his mother, you'd know exactly where this behavior comes from. He is exactly like her. My concern is, obviously, that he will fall into the same drug abusing, sexually promiscuous, and law-breaking lifestyle that's kept her in and out of prisons and jails (in between the births of her six children). Her impulsive behavior has made her unemployable, homeless, addicted to crack, and in trouble so many times that she has lost the parental rights to all of her children...one at a time.

It is SO hard to undo the damage this woman has done. And it's not like he's 7. He's going to be 14 in two weeks, has been with me long enough to know how to treat others (we practice!), and still refuses to do what he knows is the right thing.

 

[tp65]

DonVA, None of us will ever agree with the way others discipline their children as long as they do it differently then us but I know that you are doing the best you can. I also know that others would have given up by now. I pray that he someday realizes what a blessing you are!

 

[DonVA]

Thank you for saying that, tp65. I don't know a lot of other single guys who would have taken on this challenge, but I truly believe he can be helped.

You mentioned others giving up "by now." Two others have already given up on him. Three if you count the grandmother who refused to take him in when his mother went to jail. His biological mother chose drugs over him and his brothers, and his first foster home asked to have him removed and placed somewhere else. They wanted to keep his little brother, though. That was three years ago.

I think this is all very difficult for him because no one has ever said what they meant and meant what they said with him. No one has ever been clear with expectations or consistent with consequences (good OR bad). No one ever cared.

When I see him getting emotionally upset, I let him know that I understand that he's angry, and that I'd be angry too, but he made the choices that led to whatever it is that's upsetting him now. We review what an alternative would be the next time the situation arises, and even practice how to handle SIMILAR situations.

For example, he's frustrated right now because these sentences are taking him longer than he thought they would, he's running out of time, and he knows I won't be even discussing the next trip with the kids at the Y until they're completed. Problem is, that bus leaves Thursday morning at 8 am.

 

[sreno7]

What is he learning from the discipline? Is it possible that he has fetal alcohol or drug effects? Have you had any help with his behaviour? (other than meds which don't correct behaviour but allow the time for the child to stop and think though he still sounds quite impulsive) It sounds like you have quite alot on your plate and one would think that if two others have given up on him one would think that the agencies would give you tons of help.

 

[DonVA]

They believe his mother began using after his birth, so have ruled out FAS.

He received counseling with a therapist, where he puts on a good face while they play games. She agrees that he's 14 "going on 10."

The punishment is teaching him the same thing prison teaches. You break the same rules over and over and over, and everything you want to do goes away. You waste your life.

 

[sreno7]

Maybe he is not ready for counselling but is there help available for you as a parent? Some support? Some ideas and suggestions? Some respite?

 

[DonVA]

I actually have an amazing support network of friends and family, and the guidance of social workers, counselors, and psychiatrists who insist that my approach toward his behavior is right on target. I am consistently reinforcing the rules and guiding him in devising a plan for him to follow them. (The sentences he's writing ARE the rules, or the ones he chose to break). The fact that he hates writing more than anything makes this sort of punishment almost unbearable, and I'm hoping that--just like I did when I was a kid--he will do his best to never have to push a pencil for this purpose again.

At the end, I ask him again to tell me what the rules are, and share with me how he knows to avoid breaking them in the future, and if he understands the consequences.

Because he would refuse to put the time in to practice his writing when he was given the opportunity in fifth and sixth grades, this is a slow process for him. His writing is improving with practice, as he can even see, and it's becoming less and less tiresome the more he writes. This is not hurting him. As much as anyone might disagree with using this to drive a point home, it's actually HELPING him. I can read his writing now, and so can he! Now that he knows he CAN form letters and words... hopefully he will, at least in the next year when he thinks he'll be filling out job applications.

Part of what he needs to do between now and then is come up with some references who can honestly say that he is trustworthy, responsible, follows direction, and is a team player. As of today, he cannot name even one person he knows who could give him that sort of reference, and he realizes now that it's because of his own choices.