How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

[Oncedeceived]

First, let me note that I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post or it's even allowed in these forums in general. If it shouldn't be here, I'd ask a mod to move it to the right forum or delete it.

This is a personal story, and one I think worth telling, but as a personal story when I use any possibly controversial terms such as science, evolution, christianity, decency, or critical thinking the definitions I'm using are mine.

I grew up in an atheist household. Religion wasn't really talked about. Around the time I was graduating high school and starting college, when I was younger and stupider than I even am now, I became really aware of my atheism and my lack of conviction in it. So I set out to explore religion.

When it came to christianity, my exploration became intertwined with the loudest and most evangelical group of christians in my area. They told me that in order to be a christian, I would have to believe that the earth was 6,000 years old, that evolution wasn't science, that the big bang never happened, that basically all of the facts, ideas, and reasoning tools I had grown up adoring must be thrown out. Unsurprisingly, I rejected them instead.

The worst part, the part where my immaturity led me astray, was that I believed them when they told me that they stood for christianity. I believed them when they said there was no compatibility between christianity and what I called critical thinking. And I generalized, more or less, their beliefs to all christians.

This led to some years of my entertaining very silly ideas, wherein I regarded all christians as superstitious fools incapable of a coherent belief system. I've met more reasonable believers since then, and they helped disabuse me of these notions, but none communicated as deep and thorough an integration of science, critical thinking, decency, and christianity as I've learned is possible from reading these boards. I think if my first substantial interaction with evangelism had been with a mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist I could be a christian today. As it stands now, I've reopened the possibility. I don't expect to convert, but if enough questions get answered in a way that resonates with me I may.

That is, of course, unless it is impossible to both believe in strongly supported scientific theories such as evolution and be christian. In that case, I ain't ever getting saved.

I am glad that you are open minded enough to consider the possibility of Christian faith and reason. It is very easy when one is new to anything that the chance of being lead by the nose by those who are in "authority.

I think the first step, and maybe others have said this in this thread, (because I didn't read through it before posting) is reaching out to Jesus. That is the threshold to the answer to all your questions. I know that until you have that knowledge of His existence it is very easy to be swayed this way and that. Bottom line, Christianity is a relationship with Christ. Creation/evolution/age of the earth and all that is totally meaningless without that. Don't worry about people, Christian or non-believer, telling you what to believe. Don't worry about giving up your understanding of the world because it will all be worked out. If you decide to open your life over to Christ then feel free to message me and we can talk privately. I'll be praying for you.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Any theistic evolutionists around here to lead this person to Christ?

I for one would be glad to answer any questions or help in anyway I can.

 

[Oncedeceived]

It was actually God that lead me to Christ. I was seeking God, He lead me to Christ, Christ lead me to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lead me back to Christ and Christ lead me back to God. I started to learn about about God. People say that man invented God and maybe that is all they know is what man has invented. They have not yet learned anything about God and what He is all about.

Exactly!

 

[Oncedeceived]

Is it possible to be a mature, intelligent Christian without being an evolutionist?

FYI, none of the authors of the Bible were "mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist", and every Christian on the planet today are believers because of what those authors taught.

What is it to be an evolutionist? In your mind, I mean. What does that mean to you?

 

[selfinflikted]

I for one would be glad to answer any questions or help in anyway I can.

Then what would you say to someone who pursued god for years and was left empty handed?

 

[MoonLancer]

Yeah, because people have never disagreed about any other subject.

Of course its just like every other subject, in this case with less consistancy.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Then what would you say to someone who pursued god for years and was left empty handed?

God in general?

 

[Juvenal]

There's a lot more than just believing that a god directed evolution. You also have to somehow get around believing in a soul, believing in a being that would be the most complicated thing in the universe and yet there's not a lick of evidence to suggest it exists, you have to somehow figure out HOW a god directs evolution or anything for that matter. Just saying that it did it isn't good enough. HOW? What process?

No... you don't lead a skeptic to believe in magic without proving magic happens.

Blatantly visible contradictions tend to obscure contradictions that are primarily philosophical. We devote more attention to young earth creationism, as such, because it encompasses the most flagrant errors we associate with Christianity. I suspect the OP is looking for a Christianity that doesn't begin with a requirement that one must overlook obvious lies.

Personally, I'm looking for a Christianity that's wiling to cast them out.

As ever, Jesse

 

[Jazer]

Then what would you say to someone who pursued god for years and was left empty handed?

I would say without holiness no man shall see God. Even if you want to catch a fish you have to use the right bait.

 

[RareLight]

There are many scientific reasons to believe in God.

1. The universe is temporary. It had a beginning at the big bang and it will have an end when all the hydrogen in the universe is consumed by stars. The end is mandated by the second law of thermodynamics. If the universe had a beginning, it needs a creation mechanism. There are some naturalistic ideas about how this could have happened without God, but these are highly speculative ideas that lack any form of evidence at all.

2. The universe is extremely fine-tuned for life. This is evident in the fundamental constants of physics. Many of these parameters are so sensitive, that a minute change would render our universe lifeless. Not just life, but any complexity at all requires a narrow range of values for these constants. (search google for "rareuniverse" for more about this)

3. the bible and the geological record is in excellent agreement if one has an old earth view of the Genesis creation account. (search google for "rareuniverse timeline" for more info)

4. God uses the forces of nature to fulfill His purposes. The uncertainty principle puts a degree of apparent randomness into the world. Creating this mechanism, God put a fine adjustment knob into every elementary particle in the universe. By this he can control everything without violating a single law of nature.

What God wants from His created subjects is not just belief but love. He loves us and wants us to love Him in return. It's that simple. He gave His Son to die in the hands of men so that we would know his love for us, and know how to have a relationship with Him. Knowing Jesus is to know God, loving Jesus is to love God, they are One.

 

[dad]

I would say without holiness no man shall see God. Even if you want to catch a fish you have to use the right bait.

So how does that work, we need to be holy? Ever met someone holy yet?

 

[dad]

First, let me note that I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post or it's even allowed in these forums in general. If it shouldn't be here, I'd ask a mod to move it to the right forum or delete it.

This is a personal story, and one I think worth telling, but as a personal story when I use any possibly controversial terms such as science, evolution, christianity, decency, or critical thinking the definitions I'm using are mine.

I grew up in an atheist household. Religion wasn't really talked about. Around the time I was graduating high school and starting college, when I was younger and stupider than I even am now, I became really aware of my atheism and my lack of conviction in it. So I set out to explore religion.

When it came to christianity, my exploration became intertwined with the loudest and most evangelical group of christians in my area. They told me that in order to be a christian, I would have to believe that the earth was 6,000 years old, that evolution wasn't science, that the big bang never happened, that basically all of the facts, ideas, and reasoning tools I had grown up adoring must be thrown out. Unsurprisingly, I rejected them instead.

The worst part, the part where my immaturity led me astray, was that I believed them when they told me that they stood for christianity. I believed them when they said there was no compatibility between christianity and what I called critical thinking. And I generalized, more or less, their beliefs to all christians.

This led to some years of my entertaining very silly ideas, wherein I regarded all christians as superstitious fools incapable of a coherent belief system. I've met more reasonable believers since then, and they helped disabuse me of these notions, but none communicated as deep and thorough an integration of science, critical thinking, decency, and christianity as I've learned is possible from reading these boards. I think if my first substantial interaction with evangelism had been with a mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist I could be a christian today. As it stands now, I've reopened the possibility. I don't expect to convert, but if enough questions get answered in a way that resonates with me I may.

That is, of course, unless it is impossible to both believe in strongly supported scientific theories such as evolution and be christian. In that case, I ain't ever getting saved.

So, you came to flood geology, and found it couldn't save you, or bring happiness? True. You think that accepting some milk toast not really believing God or the bible, so called theistic evolutionist doctrine would have led you to Almighty God, and the Messiah of the bible? No.

Salvation comes by belief in Jesus. In the case of an atheist, raised in an atheist household, what is it that was not allowed, and was missing? The word of God. That is the way home kid....

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

1. The universe is temporary. It had a beginning at the big bang and it will have an end when all the hydrogen in the universe is consumed by stars. The end is mandated by the second law of thermodynamics. If the universe had a beginning, it needs a creation mechanism. There are some naturalistic ideas about how this could have happened without God, but these are highly speculative ideas that lack any form of evidence at all.

Because the Big Bang created time as we know it, by definition this is the limit to which we have any objective inferential power.

Also, no, the universe will not end when all the hydrogen in the universe is consumed by stars, since stars can use helium (everything up to iron, in fact) as fuel. In regards to the heat death of the universe, I do not see how this has anything at all to do with God.

Also, given that the universe started from a state that we could not predict and which, given there was no concept of time, there need not be any causality, it does not really follow that there need be a creation mechanism. It could be its own existence caused the Big Bang.

2. The universe is extremely fine-tuned for life. This is evident in the fundamental constants of physics. Many of these parameters are so sensitive, that a minute change would render our universe lifeless. Not just life, but any complexity at all requires a narrow range of values for these constants. (search google for "rareuniverse" for more about this)

I hate this argument. If it weren't, we would simply not be here. This is the ultimate case of cherry picking.

3. the bible and the geological record is in excellent agreement if one has an old earth view of the Genesis creation account. (search google for "rareuniverse timeline" for more info)

Given that there are so many translations, mis-translations, additions, deletions, and interpretations of the Bible, I would be surprised if there was a scientific record Genesis could not be twisted to agree with.

So basically, what we have are a bunch of post hoc rationalizations for why the Bible is 'scientific'. But why does there need to be a God?

4. God uses the forces of nature to fulfill His purposes. The uncertainty principle puts a degree of apparent randomness into the world. Creating this mechanism, God put a fine adjustment knob into every elementary particle in the universe. By this he can control everything without violating a single law of nature.

Why does there need to be a God? Because from this line of reasoning, there is no need for one. The universe, it seems, would function just as fine without one.

What God wants from His created subjects is not just belief but love. He loves us and wants us to love Him in return. It's that simple. He gave His Son to die in the hands of men so that we would know his love for us, and know how to have a relationship with Him. Knowing Jesus is to know God, loving Jesus is to love God, they are One.

He loves us like the son that he sent to his death?

 

[Jazer]

So how does that work, we need to be holy? Ever met someone holy yet?

The Bible talks about a wedding dress and how it is pure and clean without spot, blemish or wrinkle. People understand that a bride is to be a virgin and she is to save herself for her husband and marriage. The dress is a sign or symbol of this purity.

 

[Jazer]

Why does there need to be a God? Because from this line of reasoning, there is no need for one. The universe, it seems, would function just as fine without one.

This statement would indicate to me that you have managed to get this far in life and have learned nothing about God.

 

[dad]

The Bible talks about a wedding dress and how it is pure and clean without spot, blemish or wrinkle. People understand that a bride is to be a virgin and she is to save herself for her husband and marriage. The dress is a sign or symbol of this purity.

Well, neither you nor I have a dress...right? Neither you nor I are all that holy...right? What we should pretend?

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

This statement would indicate to me that you have managed to get this far in life and have learned nothing about God.

You haven't answered the question. Why, logically, does there need to be a God for the world to function as it does today? Without the weak and strong nuclear forces, the universe would never be able to coalesce into more than isolated elementary particles or nucleons. Without gravity, no matter would ever have coalesced into the galaxies we see today, and therefore the universe would never have been able to form life. Without God...what?

Well, neither you nor I have a dress...right? Neither you nor I are all that holy...right? What we should pretend?

Maybe he's into that kind of thing... we shouldn't judge.

 

[Jazer]

So, you came to flood geology, and found it couldn't save you, or bring happiness? ..

If they have studied geology then they are without excuse. The works of God can be "clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made."

"For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse" rom 1 20

 

[dad]

You haven't answered the question. Why, logically, does there need to be a God for the world to function as it does today? Without the weak and strong nuclear forces, the universe would never be able to coalesce into more than isolated elementary particles or nucleons. Without gravity, no matter would ever have coalesced into the galaxies we see today, and therefore the universe would never have been able to form life. Without God...what?

No weak or strong nuclear forces ..nucleons...gravity...etc! Not like science knows where they came from!

 

[dad]

If they have studied geology then they are without excuse. The works of God can be "clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made."

You thought the works of God had something to do with geology? No. Geology is mostly godless religion.