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As for the holy spirit, we'll see.
"They"?I would think so. They still score higher than most Christians, (about Christianity) including Catholics and Protestants.
Any statement I make is based on observation. These observations could always be mistaken. There are degrees of certainty, but there doesn't seem to be a way for me (or you) to be absolutely certain.You are human? Then you can't be certain that others don't know. All you can do is have reasonable doubts that you know. But I might trade in these little rules for more solid ones, who made them up anyhow?
Pretty much. Just because religion offers a satisfying answer, doesn't mean it's a supported one.You could be wrong, absolutely. But apparently you aren't certain either way.
Those that believe in God can't be wrong if there is a God. He is as well known as the sun to many billions over time. His effects are known also. Ask someone if they could be wrong that the sun exists....that might give you some idea of what certainty is. Now imagine some tells you you are not certain the sun is there
So, god only tells you to do things you don't want to do. Anything pleasurable is you, anything uncomfortable or unpleasant is god. That doesn't make much sense, though, I understand what you mean.
Incidentally, why do you think god likes to play that particular game of hide-and-go-seek? It's not very conducive to a proper relationship, imo.
So then, what you're ultimately saying is.. I have nothing to worry about. I should just sit back, relax, and let god do his thing on his own time?
That's why we don't take everything a scientist tells us at face value.The only place absolute certainty exists is in the minds of the religious.
What things do we take on faith? (faith being defined as believing something without evidence or reason to do so)I think that may be a misunderstanding. We exist in an imperfect world, where perfection does not exist.
When a person of faith has a certainty about their faith, that certainty is not invested in their own belief, or their own interpretation. It is invested in the God they happen to believe in.
We can be sure of some things, just as atheists can. To suggest otherwise is just silly.
The difference comes when atheists seem to claim only to believe what can be externally validated, as if the world works like that. It doesn't. There are huge swathes of knowledge that have to be taken on faith, and not just religious beliefs. It strikes me as bizarre that an atheist who can happily believe medical 'facts' and geological 'facts' and historical 'facts' and even socioeconomic 'facts' will then balk at believing religious 'facts' as if they fall into another kind of category. Some do, but some don't.
Our lives are made up of huge amounts of faith in all sorts of things. The stock market is precious little else, for one thing.
So why pick on religion, as if we are any different?
So you meant "we"? or did you make a Freudian slip?Atheists/Agnostics
Because it doesn't fit into your world view? I wouldn't call that a healthy mental attitude.That's why we don't take everything a scientist tells us at face value.
"Athiests and Agnostics in the study did better." I didn't take the study. I thought it was implied, but if you need clarification the only thing you need to do is ask.So you meant "we"? or did you make a Freudian slip?
752Because it doesn't fit into your world view?
I know you wouldn't.I wouldn't call that a healthy mental attitude.
First, let me note that I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post or it's even allowed in these forums in general. If it shouldn't be here, I'd ask a mod to move it to the right forum or delete it.
This is a personal story, and one I think worth telling, but as a personal story when I use any possibly controversial terms such as science, evolution, christianity, decency, or critical thinking the definitions I'm using are mine.
I grew up in an atheist household. Religion wasn't really talked about. Around the time I was graduating high school and starting college, when I was younger and stupider than I even am now, I became really aware of my atheism and my lack of conviction in it. So I set out to explore religion.
When it came to christianity, my exploration became intertwined with the loudest and most evangelical group of christians in my area. They told me that in order to be a christian, I would have to believe that the earth was 6,000 years old, that evolution wasn't science, that the big bang never happened, that basically all of the facts, ideas, and reasoning tools I had grown up adoring must be thrown out. Unsurprisingly, I rejected them instead.
The worst part, the part where my immaturity led me astray, was that I believed them when they told me that they stood for christianity. I believed them when they said there was no compatibility between christianity and what I called critical thinking. And I generalized, more or less, their beliefs to all christians.
This led to some years of my entertaining very silly ideas, wherein I regarded all christians as superstitious fools incapable of a coherent belief system. I've met more reasonable believers since then, and they helped disabuse me of these notions, but none communicated as deep and thorough an integration of science, critical thinking, decency, and christianity as I've learned is possible from reading these boards. I think if my first substantial interaction with evangelism had been with a mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist I could be a christian today. As it stands now, I've reopened the possibility. I don't expect to convert, but if enough questions get answered in a way that resonates with me I may.
That is, of course, unless it is impossible to both believe in strongly supported scientific theories such as evolution and be christian. In that case, I ain't ever getting saved.
How do you back up these standards?752
For the record, if something doesn't fit your world view, what do you eventually do with it?
(Note: this isn't an invitation to give me the entire scientific method.)
I know you wouldn't.
That's why your kind would rather lock us up in a mental ward, until a Christian psychiatrist can get your orders overridden.
So just they did better?"Athiests and Agnostics in the study did better." I didn't take the study.
Okie-doke.I thought it was implied, but if you need clarification the only thing you need to do is ask.
That a group of atheists & agnostics scored higher on a religion quiz?So do you concede the point?
Well, to be honest my priest tries to do it the other way round. He says I am too hard on myself, and he would say to have the biscuits.
Tell me about it. I think the received wisdom on this one is that the Lord moves in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform.
Why not? God is always the agent of our salvation. If you are not saved, then he hasn't finished moving in mysterious ways as yet.
Oh? If you tell me you were born at night, you observed that?Any statement I make is based on observation. These observations could always be mistaken. There are degrees of certainty, but there doesn't seem to be a way for me (or you) to be absolutely certain.
It's like science. Even though it often speaks in conventional language, at its roots it acknowledges that things (or theories) can't be "proven" in the absolute sense, but can only be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
So most of your uncertainty isn't so uncertain after all, but a mere result of 'language'. Ok.I'm aware that you can interrupt my posts to remove the "absolute certainty" caused by the limitations of the human language, its simply convenience that I don't end each post with. (anything I say could conceivably be mistaken)
Or not. Religion is a big word, that includes most of science.Pretty much. Just because religion offers a satisfying answer, doesn't mean it's a supported one.
But we assign degrees of probability based on what we know.
Many things you do not an cannot know. True. All the more reason man needs God.Based on current human knowledge, I can say that it is extremely improbable for absolute certainty to be possible from a human perspective. It is (from what we think we know) more likely that 911 was caused by aliens, but no one holds that belief, because it is less likely based on what we know.
Would it be too much to ask you to answer my question, please?How do you back up these standards?
I could have the same standards with FSM instead of the bible. Then I would be "right" about everything as well.
What would be an accepted sample size for concluding anything about a populace?So just they did better?
Wow -- okay -- what's the point, then?
Okie-doke.
That a group of atheists & agnostics scored higher on a religion quiz?
Sure, I'll agree with that -- (not sure what you mean by 'conceding the point').
Luke 16:8b ... for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Which question?Would it be too much to ask you to answer my question, please?
Or are you going to duck or plead 'insanity'?
From my observations I concluded which sources are trustworthy to a certain degree. I then used my senses to receive information from them. (disclaimer: I could be wrongOh? If you tell me you were born at night, you observed that?
"A theist says he knows everything, and by extension knows nothing. An atheist admits that he knows nothing, and therefor knows something."So it isn't about knowing. OK. Kind of like fairy tales I guess in that regard.
Whut?So most of your uncertainty isn't so uncertain after all, but a mere result of 'language'. Ok.
Depends how you define the two words. Under the conventional definition, you would be wrong. How would you define them?Or not. Religion is a big word, that includes most of science.
Okay...So do we. And we don't claim uncertainty about Who we know.
Whether I "need" something or not, doesn't determine whether it's there or not.Many things you do not an cannot know. True. All the more reason man needs God.
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