How should we read Paul?

[Righttruth]

Still waiting for your reply to #453....

Replied

 

[Righttruth]

righttruth,

1. Do you read your bible and do you know any scriptures to prove anything outside of anything you believe in?

I believe in Jesus' words because as Peter said it has eternal life.

2. Paul having a great zeal to add people to his flock had nothing to do with the actual context at all. That is just a general statement for all the apostles had a zeal to add to their flock for the gospel's sake.

In his zeal to dominate the chosen apostles, he made extrapolations and interpolations that are not part of the preaching of Jesus.

3. 1 Timothy 2:15: Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. Giving an opinion is not rightly dividing the word of truth.

Did not Paul say that he was giving his opinion and not a commandment of the Lord? You accept that?

4. 2 Timothy 3:16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. If the old testament was the only scripture then Peter and John would have never written their books and they would have never been part of the canon. They have too much prophecy that is in accordance with the old testament and the covenants of Abraham and David for

Why is that Catholics who decided on the canon first, don't give importance to that, rather believe in the traditions?

5. Israel and their earthly calling and the church and their heavenly calling. There are also some things in their books that were not revealed or are contained in the old testament concerning the church and the details but this doesn't mean it is not scripture.

I don't confine to only selected books. I try to understand the ministry of chosen apostles in apocryphal books.

6. You have made an opinionated statement about 1 Corinthians 15:31. If you understand about debate and rebuttal you would start by telling what the context says and means. Even plain statement have contexts and plain statements can show the content and context of motive. Will you spin or give credible scriptural evidence to show you know about the scripture and its context. I'll be waiting. Jerry Kelso

No debate is useful if it is based on preconceived notions.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Jesus said repeatedly said truly, truly:

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

John 5
19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

John 6
26 Jesus answered them and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven.

47 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."

John 10
1 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.

7 So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

John 12
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

John 13
16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him.

20 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me."

21 When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me."

38 Jesus *answered, "Will you lay down your life for Me? Truly, truly, I say to you, a rooster will not crow until you deny Me three times.

John 14
12 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

John 16
20 Truly, truly, I say to you, that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; you will grieve, but your grief will be turned into joy.

23 In that day you will not question Me about anything. Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you.

John 21
18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go."

That is not an answer....

 

[civilwarbuff]

No. I read all writings. The Holy Spirit convicts me of the preaching of Jesus and related complementary writings. Extraneous, extrapolated and extras I reject.

I don't care what you read.....Do you deny the Gospels....a simple yes or no is sufficient.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Replied

Not really you didn't.....

 

[Righttruth]

I suspect this is a waste of time (per my earlier post) but I will venture to proceed.....

I really do not understand this. What is your specific objection? That Paul does not "quote" Jesus from the gospels, or otherwise re-articulate what Jesus taught?

Without the words of Jesus that has eternal life, any kind of rhetoric is a misleading and simply drum beating exercise.

Surely you must be capable of understanding that it may well have been God's purpose to give Paul a complementary role to that of Jesus.

He did, but Paul overstepped on the role assigned and took easy way out.

Let me ask you directly - do you deny this possibility and, if so, on what grounds exactly? I suggest that among other things, Paul's specific contribution is to explicitly argue that the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus constitutes the climax of the Abrahamic covenant. This is important for us to know precisely because it shows that the God of the Old Testament - who you presumably believe Jesus participates with as part of a Trinity - kept His promises.

It is the human tendency to grab the result instead of knowing the mode of approach. One has to strive and lead a life to experience the climax. It is hypocrisy to try to land at the climax.

1. You cannot deny that Paul makes this very argument - it is really quite undeniable that he does;
2. You cannot deny that this is not important; to do that you would need to convince us that it does not materially help us to know that the God of the Old Testament has kept His promises! How can you possibly say this is not important? If you believe Jesus is "one" with the Father, you must surely understand that to know that the Father has kept His promises tells us that the Son, too, will keep his.

Paul starts a ritual of communion saying that we need to proclaim His death until His coming. A big deal! No need to proclaim His death. We need to proclaim His resurrection until He returns. Do we believe in a dead religion?

 

[Righttruth]

You realize Matthias was chosen before the Day of Pentecost?
And am still waiting on your responsed to #453.....

Yes, guided by the Holy Spirit. Replied for 453

 

[Righttruth]

I don't care what you read.....Do you deny the Gospels....a simple yes or no is sufficient.

Gospel is life, not Paul's suppositions.

 

[Righttruth]

Not really you didn't.....

Please ask again.

 

[Righttruth]

Righttruth: Another comparison for you to consider.

Jesus said: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

Paul wrote: that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Again, Paul precisely echoes this most foundational of Jesus' statements regarding salvation.

Now, prithee, where do you say that Paul and Jesus part company? Please give chapter and verse.

Jesus also said that one has to be obedient to His words and produce fruit. Paul emphasizing only belief that is misleading.

 

[Dan Bert]

Paul and all scriptures should be read with the Spirit of God. And do not worry what others say. If everyone of us were taught of God instead of men and their creeds we would eventually have unity of faith.
Dan

Paul was not a witness in Jesus' earthly ministry. He never heard the elaboration of the parables by Jesus. Therefore, all his epistles should be tested to determine whether they complement the preaching of Jesus or not. Furthermore, any important theological concept cannot be based on Paul's epistles alone. Gospel is the filter one has to apply to his letters.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yes, guided by the Holy Spirit. Replied for 453

Scripture says that where?....Certainly not in Acts 1....

 

[civilwarbuff]

Gospel is life, not Paul's suppositions.

You continue to dodge the question....why is that? Could it be because you also deny the Gospels as well as the rest of the NT as you have stated?

 

[jerry kelso]

I believe in Jesus' words because as Peter said it has eternal life.



In his zeal to dominate the chosen apostles, he made extrapolations and interpolations that are not part of the preaching of Jesus.



Did not Paul say that he was giving his opinion and not a commandment of the Lord? You accept that?



Why is that Catholics who decided on the canon first, don't give importance to that, rather believe in the traditions?



I don't confine to only selected books. I try to understand the ministry of chosen apostles in apocryphal books.



No debate is useful if it is based on preconceived notions.

righttruth,

1. Words has eternal life was talking about the death, burial and resurrection who at the time Jesus said that Peter didn't understand the full revelation of that. Paul after the fact agreed with that the words of Jesus having eternal life concerning the death, burial, and resurrection. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

2. You have no scripture to prove that Paul made extrapolations or dominance over the apostles. Paul called Peter down when he sinned in having respect of persons and Peter came into submission because he knew Paul told the truth.
You are telling opinions and generalizations because you have no scriptural backup.

3. Paul was specific when he gave what he thought in certain instances and he was certain when he was backed up by scripture. In his opinions he never went against the word of God in principle or the new covenant.

4. Catholic leadership has mixed in traditions of men because they have an agenda that is not a God thing. They have truth of many true biblical doctrines and they use it to hide much of their true agenda.

5. Apochrypha are not a part of the canon of scripture because too much is not true and is allegorical to the extreme.

6. Your debate is full of preconceived notions to make up for your lack of scriptural context and understanding. If you are so full of right truth then why don't you tell me what you think Paul meant when he said I die daily and why he said it and give scriptural basis and other scriptures outside of the passage that harmonize with it. Until you give scriptural context and understanding all you have is extrapolations and opinions filled with generalizations. Prove yourself scripturally and then maybe one can take you seriously and to the point and not generalizations and dancing around and spinning. Good luck Jerry kelso

 

[Righttruth]

That doesn't change the fact that there are 14 that are, at different times, numbered among the 12. Stop evading and start quoting scripture. If Jesus' ministry is really the source of your disagreement with Paul you should have no problem doing this.

You keep saying "the deviations of Paul" but have yet to provide one actual deviation.

You keep claiming Paul was not called to be an apostle but have yet to provide one scripture that proves that.

You keep claiming that Paul was deceptive and a liar but have yet to provide one scripture that illustrates that.

People who have caught up with quagmire of Paul will remain blind and deaf with closed mind. They are least bothered to verify the words of Jesus to test the veracity of writings. They don't like to stand on the rock of Peter.

Every time scripture is posted, you ignore it and go to your book that was written by a mechanical engineer who evidently believes himself wiser than St. Paul.

He may be wiser but not crafty to take people with deceit, like, Paul.

I rely on scripture for my truth. Other than you, nobody here has yet quoted a book about St. Paul. We have all quoted the Bible, and yet you continue to insist that it is we who do not rely on the Bible for our evidence, though you cannot find even one scripture to support your standpoint.

That is your narrow understanding

Your fanatical devotion to this book written by Devaprakash R. Shampur borders on occult. Shampur starts his book with the premise that Paul was a false apostle - already a poor approach and out of line with scripture - and goes on to use verses against false apostles to incriminate Paul, though none of them speak of Paul, and though Paul's writings are never found to be in contrast to the teachings of Jesus Christ. His entire approach to St. Paul is dependent on this notion that Paul - and Luke - as "rank outsiders" were unable to understand what it means to be an apostle. And he ignores the mountain of scriptural evidence that Paul is an apostle.

All presumptions in tune with Paul without even reading the book.

He even falsely claims that Paul initiated the first division in the church - and even says the "Jerusalem church" - even though the events he describes took place in Antioch and were of a personal nature, not a doctrinal nature, and they occurred after Peter led the Jews into hypocrisy and created the first true division.

You have conveniently ignored the split in the beginning of the second journey.

Yet you fanatically quote his book as though it were the Bible itself, and then claim that the New Testament Canon is not scripture. You are following a sect leader.

Only a dead fish flow with the current. The gate to heaven is narrow and only a few find it.

Jesus said "by their fruits you shall know them." Paul's fruits are plainly laid out in scripture. You have continually defamed and slandered him, but have yet to show even one valid proof of your claims. He is a wonderful example of one who lived out the instruction to live in such a way that even when people slander you and say all kinds of false things against you, their words will be proven false.

Self-claim and boasting are not good fruits.

 

[Righttruth]

wrongtruth,

1. Peter didn't even teach the same message Jesus did in his earthly ministry. The gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. He hardly said anything about his death and resurrection until the jews rejected him and the covenant of Abraham and David in the form of the KOH and the KOG which was only to the jews.

2. The disciples didn't even understand his death and resurrection in John 6 of eating his flesh and drinking his blood and many of his other disciples went back. He asked the disciples if they would go to and they said to whom shall we go for only thou has the words of eternal life.

3. In Matthew 16:22-23 Jesus told them he was fixing to be killed and rise again and Peter said I won"t let anyone kill you and he rebuked Peter, Saying; Get thee behind me Satan for you don't savor the things of God. This is a double reference because Satan was using Peter to thwart the redemptive plan of the cross of which Peter was ignorant of.

4. If Jesus would have taught his death, and resurrection to come to him and be saved it would have messed up the plan of God for he wouldn't have proclaimed the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand or else they would have had him killed so they could receive salvation in it's fullness because it could not be completed until Christ died. The prophecies showed that Israel would reject him and the church was predestinated before the world began or from the foundation of the world. This is why the church is to make Israel Jealous and why Israel has to be purged before they come back to God and enter their legal right to their earthly calling Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7.

5. I am sorry but you don't have a clue about Jesus teachings and their purpose and why they were under the Mosaic law and not under new covenant teachings in his earthly ministry of the KOH and the KOG.
Hebrews 8:6-7 tells us that the new covenant replaced the old and that didn't happen until Calvary.
Hebrews 9:16-17: For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Matthew 26:28 the blood of the Lord is the new testament.

6. Gradual revelation is the only way to understand how the redemptive plan of God unfolded through the ages and even in the beginning of the early church to the time that Peter got the vision of the clean and the unclean and learned that the gentiles were on the same level as the jews for in the body of Christ there is no jew, no gentile, no male, no female etc. This speaks spiritually on the same level. You don't have a clue and you need to recognize it and succumb to the truth of the word. Jerry kelso

Mature spiritual growth is not instantaneous. All grew gradually including Paul. Paul wrote to specific congregations and people, not to you and me. Hence it requires spiritual maturity to grasp from the writings what is truth applicable to us and what is deviation. Everything written cannot be applied universally without considering the context and people.

 

[Righttruth]

Righttruth, please consider these words from Jesus in his interaction with Caiaphus:

But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One? And Jesus said, "I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

What is Jesus saying? Well, among other things, He quotes from Daniel 7, a text which speaks of a son of man character who arises and is given kingship over all the earth.

Now consider these words of Paul (Romans 15):

Again Isaiah says, "THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE, AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES, IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE."

I should need to say nothing more.

But, just to be sure you realize what is happening, I will: Paul is affirming the lordship of Jesus over the Gentiles, something Jesus claims to Caiaphus' face.

Paul and Jesus are on exactly the same page about this.

What say ye?

I have made it clear that I accept only those that are in conformity with the words of Jesus. Paul is quoting the OT. Where is the problem?

 

[Righttruth]

Claiming to be the only one who is correct and sees/knows the truth is guaranteed to set alarm bells off.

Such an opinion should only make others to study any writings to find out whether it conforms to words of Jesus.

 

[Righttruth]

Now you are going to tell us of course what Paul missed in preaching the full Gospel.

Only those who give paramount importance to the words of the Son can discern the deviations.

 

[Righttruth]

Which means you are in danger of bearing false witness against Paul.

Falsely attributing him characteristics, actions and thoughts (mind reading), is false attribution error.

Which means you are misleading people on this thread.

I witness for Christ.