How should we read Paul?

[nomadictheist]

The moment you say Paul is an apostle indicates that Paul rules all your thinking because it is fundamentally his claim!

Your unsupported opinion. I and many others have shown the scriptural support for Paul's apostleship. You have shown 0 scriptural support for your opinion.

Bible has only recorded the self-claim of Paul. It is not the exclusive mouthpiece of Paul.

All scripture is God breathed, and scripture cannot be broken. Nobody here is making the claim that Scripture is the "exclusive mouthpiece of Paul."

It is again an imaginary statement of Paul unsupported by the chosen apostles! That is how easy communion ritual was picked by the churches with invented word of Paul (remembrance) ignoring the spiritual significance as pointed out by John 6!

You can't deny a quote just based on the fact that other apostles don't quote the same thing. If you read the gospels, you'll see that each of them have quotes that others don't have. And John says that if everything Jesus did or said were written down, the whole world could not contain the volumes. You can't Paul a liar based on what isn't in other parts of scripture.

Possibly a white lie or a wrong vision unsuspected by Paul with his egoism!

Neither - a blatant lie by you that Paul never quoted Jesus.

The word 'Galatians' never appears in the Acts. In Galatians 2:1, Paul speaks of a gap of fourteen years and the presence of Titus who appears to be a relative of Luke. Luke and Titus became associates only later after the split.

Yes. Paul speaks of a gap of 14 years. Do you think the events in Acts all occurred in some neat, tidy little timeline? That within a year or so Paul was converted, preached in Arabia, came to Jerusalem the first time, went on a missionary journey, and came back to Jerusalem the second time. Then some 14 years later this previously unrecorded visit to Jerusalem occurs?

I clearly demonstrated by referencing the correlating Acts passages when this confrontation happened. Paul even makes reference to the purpose of the second visit to Jerusalem. Without posting the entire timeline again, here are the important parts:

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

The Jerusalem Council
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men andbrethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

The Jerusalem Decree
22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

Continuing Ministry in Syria
30 So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. 31 When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement. 32 Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words. 33 And after they had stayed there for a time, they were sent back with greetings from the brethren to the apostles.

34 However, it seemed good to Silas to remain there.35 Paul and Barnabas also remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

Now what he wrote to the Galatians:

Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

No Return to the Law
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

It only proves my point! Paul preached all the time his version of abridged gospel since he did not know that in detail!

No, it contradicts your point. The gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ. There is no "abridged gospel."

The Bible only mentions 12 tribes. Show me where 14 tribes are mentioned. Even your link titles 12 tribes. To accommodate self-claim Paul, you want to make Jesus a liar! What a blasphemy!

Blasphemy is a very strong charge. You are mistaken:

Reuben[1], you are my firstborn...

5 “Simeon and Levi[2,3] are brothers...

8 “Judah[4], you are he whom your brothers shall praise...

13 “Zebulun[5] shall dwell by the haven of the sea...

14 “Issachar[6] is a strong donkey...

16 “Dan[7] shall judge his people...

19 “Gad[8], a troop shall tramp upon him...

20 “Bread from Asher[9] shall be rich...

21 “Naphtali[10] is a deer let loose...

22 “Joseph[11] is a fruitful bough...

27 “Benjamin[12] is a ravenous wolf...”

28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father spoke to them. And he blessed them; he blessed each one according to his own blessing.

But later we see:

Everyone of the children of Israel shall camp by his own standard, beside the emblems of his father’s house; they shall camp some distance from the tabernacle of meeting. 3 On the east side, toward the rising of the sun, those of the standard of the forces with Judah shall camp according to their armies; and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be the leader of the children of Judah.” 4 And his army was numbered at seventy-four thousand six hundred.

5 “Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Issachar, and Nethanel the son of Zuar shall be the leader of the children of Issachar.” 6 And his army was numbered at fifty-four thousand four hundred.

7 “Then comes the tribe of Zebulun, and Eliab the son of Helon shall be the leader of the children of Zebulun.” 8 And his army was numbered at fifty-seven thousand four hundred. 9 “All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Judah, one hundred and eighty-six thousand four hundred—these shall break camp first.

10 “On the south side shall be the standard of the forces with Reuben according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.” 11 And his army was numbered at forty-six thousand five hundred.

12 “Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Simeon, and the leader of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.” 13 And his army was numbered at fifty-nine thousand three hundred.

14 “Then comes the tribe of Gad, and the leader of the children of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.”15 And his army was numbered at forty-five thousand six hundred and fifty. 16 “All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Reuben, one hundred and fifty-one thousand four hundred and fifty—they shall be the second to break camp.

17 “And the tabernacle of meeting shall move out with the camp of the Levites in the middle of the camps; as they camp, so they shall move out, everyone in his place, by their standards.

18 “On the west side shall be the standard of the forces with Ephraim[13] according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.” 19 And his army was numbered at forty thousand five hundred.

20 “Next to him comes the tribe of Manasseh[14], and the leader of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.” 21 And his army was numbered at thirty-two thousand two hundred.

22 “Then comes the tribe of Benjamin, and the leader of the children of Benjaminshall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.” 23 And his army was numbered at thirty-five thousand four hundred. 24 “All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Ephraim, one hundred and eight thousand one hundred—they shall be the third to break camp.

25 “The standard of the forces with Dan shall be on the north side according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.” 26 And his army was numbered at sixty-two thousand seven hundred.

27 “Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Asher, and the leader of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.” 28 And his army was numbered at forty-one thousand five hundred.

29 “Then comes the tribe of Naphtali, and the leader of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.” 30 And his army was numbered at fifty-three thousand four hundred. 31 “All who were numbered of the forces with Dan, one hundred and fifty-seven thousand six hundred—they shall break camp last, with their standards.”

Even though the Bible consistently speaks of the "twelve tribes," there are 14 different tribes that are named in various places. Some lists omit one or more of the tribes. Other lists (like the one in numbers) contain at least 13, and some lists even break Manasseh down into 2 tribes. No single tribe is consistently omitted from these lists. Sometimes you see Levi omitted. Other times Simeon, Gad, and Asher, and in the Revelation account the tribe of Dan is omitted. Yet all 14 of these tribes are listed at various points in scripture.

Matthew 19
28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And at this time Judas was with them. Nothing in this passage excludes more apostles being called.

Here are some more:

Genesis 49
28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father said to them when he blessed them. He blessed them, every one with the blessing appropriate to him.

Exodus 24
4 Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel.

Joshua 3
12 Now then, take for yourselves twelve men from the tribes of Israel, one man for each tribe.

Ezekiel 47
13 Thus says the Lord GOD, "This shall be the boundary by which you shall divide the land for an inheritance among the twelve tribes of Israel; Joseph shall have two portions.

I've already shown how, though the Bible says "12 tribes" several times, there are 14 tribes that are enumerated in different places.

Are you mocking at the wisdom of Jesus to chose only 12 out of number of disciples to judge the twelve tribes?

Stop with the accusations. I said nothing about "mocking" Jesus' wisdom or decisions. What I said is that Jesus did not limit His apostles to 12. If you admit that Matthias was an apostle, then you also admit this, because Matthias makes 13. And Paul would be 14. Interesting that this mirrors the 12 tribes, where there were 12 initially, but following that one (Joseph) was omitted from most lists and 2 others (Ephraim and Manasseh) took his place in subsequent accounts.

 

[Righttruth]

I'm glad. Now please explain how Paul, commissioned by the Holy Spirit mislead souls on his missionary journeys.

That can happen because nobody is perfect. For example, St. Augustine erred in formulating certain orthodox concepts. His belief in certain traditions are questionable.

You accuse Paul of arrogance. Now may be the time to admit you went a bit too far in your claims Paul misled, was crafty etc. Strong words against a man who had the approval and commission not only of Jesus Christ but the Holy Spirit Who testifies of the Son.

Yes, I admit that I exaggerate things. But Paul claimed craftiness:

2 Corinthians 12
16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

 

[Righttruth]

He called himself the least of them. See 1 Corinthians 15.

That won't help. Puffing up and deflating nominally will not help. Why boast in the first place?

I guess we have to decide whether you and a mechanical engineer are right or believe Paul.

Not a tough decision.

You are making a mistake. Believe in Jesus.

 

[Righttruth]

Did you read, "All Scripture "is" God- Breathed" or "All Scripture "was" God-Breathed"? Do you have to take us through English Tutorials to see the tense used!!!! I have no idea why you read Paul from a man's perspective ... It's horribly misguided translation!!!

Scripture stands for the OT. Was Paul writing to the angels?

When he called himself the least of them... It means he never deserved to have the calling to spread the gospel like the apostles because he persecuted the church. The statement never changed Jesus had 12 disciples but there was a new change on who else could spread the word of God in a similar capacity.

Nothing prevented him to remain a 'chosen instrument' for the work of the Lord. He wanted that title badly because many were not prepared to accept him. Gentiles never knew the responsibility of an apostle apart being asked to preach the Gospel.

On the other hand, who are we to say who Jesus should have called and who he shouldn't have? Also Paul's case was above and over the other disciples who were later called into the ministry or baptized by the other apostles. He's the only one who was called into apostleship by Jesus himself (long after He ascended into heaven) in the scriptures.

No one was called an apostle by Jesus after the chosen twelve whether on earth or from heaven.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I would like to accuse you of blasphemy: Let's read through

2 Corinthians 12: 14-18, "Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you? 18I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the same footsteps by the same Spirit?

Yes, I admit that I exaggerate things. But Paul claimed craftiness:

2 Corinthians 12
16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

He was questioning the Corinthians of the same things you are questioning him of.... "That he caught believers by trickery or craftiness" Are you sure, you weren't a part of this???

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I said "He was called into Apostleship!!!

Scripture stands for the OT. Was Paul writing to the angels?



Nothing prevented him to remain a 'chosen instrument' for the work of the Lord. He wanted that title badly because many were not prepared to accept him. Gentiles never knew the responsibility of an apostle apart being asked to preach the Gospel.



No one was called an apostle by Jesus after the chosen twelve whether on earth or from heaven.

"

 

[Righttruth]

Sorry but I'm not interested in subsequent writings.
Maybe I should read a few of them to find out what they say, and maybe one day I will. But if they are not in Scripture, then there was a reason for leaving them out. And I'm not talking so much about the Apocrypha, but about books like "the Gospel of Peter" or "Gospel of Thomas".

Nothing wrong in reading all books. The Holy Spirit will guide you what to take and what not to accept. Nevertheless, the essence of the work of the chosen apostles can be gauged by them. A well written material of an outsider cannot be accepted without verifying from other sources.

The Holy Spirit inspired the books and letters to be written and he showed men which books and letters to include in the canon of Scripture. He, the Spirit of truth, inspired God's word - which reveals God - to be written down.

Have considered the history of canon? Are you aware of the notion of Marcion when he began the concept of canon? Why do we find different canons for different groups? Do you have several holy Spirits to result in different canons?

Like I say, you're obsessed with the word Apostle!

I am questioning Paul for the same reason.

Paul is JESUS' chosen one - but you still accuse him of writing white lies, having his own agenda, trying to promote himself and other things too. Then you say you only trust some of his writings. If he is untrustworthy, then everything he says is suspect; how do you know when he is telling the truth? If he writes white lies, then Jesus chose a liar.

Many of the thirteen letters of Paul are suspected of the same author! Many are called but only a few are chosen. Paul was not a chosen apostle.

The fact is that Paul was chosen by Jesus, preached Jesus, lived for Jesus, taught what Jesus taught and died for Jesus. You seem to be ignoring these facts because they don't suit your position, which is that Paul is a false teacher.

It was not Paul alone who qualifies for that.

I asked, what gives YOU the right to judge and condemn Paul when neither the other apostles, nor God himself, did so. IF Paul made false claims about himself, then it was up to Peter or James, as head of the church, or the Lord Jesus, whose church it is and who is the supreme head, to rebuke him and write to all his churches to tell them so that they were not led away from the faith. But this did not happen; quite the opposite in fact. Peter and the 12 welcomed and accepted Paul; Peter later called him a brother and urged people to accept his writings.
The early church had problems with Judaisers, Gnostics and other false teachers - Paul was not one of them. So again, if they did not have a problem with it, how do you have the right to say that he was false? I'm not playing with words, I'm asking you a simple question. If you do not have an answer; that's fine. At least then everyone will know.

John did that clarification in Revelation, and many writings from James, John, letter to the Hebrews, gospel books and Peter did that. Blind accept blindly all of Paul's ignoring other sources.

 

[Strong in Him]

Nothing wrong in reading all books. The Holy Spirit will guide you what to take and what not to accept. Nevertheless, the essence of the work of the chosen apostles can be gauged by them. A well written material of an outsider cannot be accepted without verifying from other sources.

So you rely on the Holy Spirit to show you what books to read from sources outside the Bible, but you won't accept that the Spirit inspired Paul, whose letters are IN the Bible, to write? Or at least, you may accept some of his writings but not others.

Have considered the history of canon? Are you aware of the notion of Marcion when he began the concept of canon?

No and no.
But whatever the history, the question is, do you believe that the Bible as most of us know it - 39 books of the OT and 27 of the New - is inspired by the Holy Spirit? Is it the written word of God? Did the Spirit of truth inspire people to write the truth so that the Bible contains a true revelation of God and teaching about the true Saviour and the true faith? Or is some of it true, but some not to be trusted? Is there some of it that you accept, and some that you ignore in favour of books from other sources which you believe the Spirit has led you to read? How do you know that it is the Spirit who is leading you when some of the teaching about the life, gifts and fruit of the Spirit is from a man you don't trust?

Many of the thirteen letters of Paul are suspected of the same author! Many are called but only a few are chosen. Paul was not a chosen apostle.

The Holy Spirit doesn't agree with you on that point.

John did that clarification in Revelation,

Where?

and many writings from James, John, letter to the Hebrews, gospel books and Peter did that. Blind accept blindly all of Paul's ignoring other sources.

If the NT writings accept Paul's letters, then there is obviously a reason for that. There's your answer; they accepted him.

JESUS chose Paul, Peter accepted him, as did the others, and called him a dear brother.
If you want us to believe that Paul was a false apostle, rejected by the church, you need to provide Scripture which says so.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Show me the verse that speaks of gift of interpretation other than in 1 Corinthians.

Do you believe for a verse to be true it must be repeated over and over?

 

[Righttruth]

Your unsupported opinion. I and many others have shown the scriptural support for Paul's apostleship. You have shown 0 scriptural support for your opinion.

No support excepting self-proclamations!

All scripture is God breathed, and scripture cannot be broken. Nobody here is making the claim that Scripture is the "exclusive mouthpiece of Paul."

NT is not scripture. It ended by the Holy Spirit.

You can't deny a quote just based on the fact that other apostles don't quote the same thing. If you read the gospels, you'll see that each of them have quotes that others don't have. And John says that if everything Jesus did or said were written down, the whole world could not contain the volumes. You can't Paul a liar based on what isn't in other parts of scripture.

You blindly accept an absentee's statement ignoring the witnesses of the incident! That is fanaticism for what is supposed.

Neither - a blatant lie by you that Paul never quoted Jesus.

How can he quote when he was not in His ministry?

Yes. Paul speaks of a gap of 14 years. Do you think the events in Acts all occurred in some neat, tidy little timeline? That within a year or so Paul was converted, preached in Arabia, came to Jerusalem the first time, went on a missionary journey, and came back to Jerusalem the second time. Then some 14 years later this previously unrecorded visit to Jerusalem occurs?

I clearly demonstrated by referencing the correlating Acts passages when this confrontation happened. Paul even makes reference to the purpose of the second visit to Jerusalem. Without posting the entire timeline again, here are the important parts:

And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

The Jerusalem Council
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us,9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

12 Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. 13 And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men andbrethren, listen to me: 14 Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 ‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’

18 “Known to God from eternity are all His works.19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

The Jerusalem Decree
22 Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.

23 They wrote this letter by them:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.

Continuing Ministry in Syria
30 So when they were sent off, they came to Antioch; and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the letter. 31 When they had read it, they rejoiced over its encouragement. 32 Now Judas and Silas, themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words. 33 And after they had stayed there for a time, they were sent back with greetings from the brethren to the apostles.

34 However, it seemed good to Silas to remain there.35 Paul and Barnabas also remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.

Now what he wrote to the Galatians:

Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

No Return to the Law
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

Nobody can demonstrate clearly the bygone patches of history.

No, it contradicts your point. The gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed to Paul by Jesus Christ. There is no "abridged gospel."

If you think Paul's letters include the material of the four books of the Gospel, nothing is more absurd.

Blasphemy is a very strong charge. You are mistaken:

Reuben[1], you are my firstborn...

5 “Simeon and Levi[2,3] are brothers...

8 “Judah[4], you are he whom your brothers shall praise...

13 “Zebulun[5] shall dwell by the haven of the sea...

14 “Issachar[6] is a strong donkey...

16 “Dan[7] shall judge his people...

19 “Gad[8], a troop shall tramp upon him...

20 “Bread from Asher[9] shall be rich...

21 “Naphtali[10] is a deer let loose...

22 “Joseph[11] is a fruitful bough...

27 “Benjamin[12] is a ravenous wolf...”

28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father spoke to them. And he blessed them; he blessed each one according to his own blessing.

But later we see:

Everyone of the children of Israel shall camp by his own standard, beside the emblems of his father’s house; they shall camp some distance from the tabernacle of meeting. 3 On the east side, toward the rising of the sun, those of the standard of the forces with Judah shall camp according to their armies; and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be the leader of the children of Judah.” 4 And his army was numbered at seventy-four thousand six hundred.

5 “Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Issachar, and Nethanel the son of Zuar shall be the leader of the children of Issachar.” 6 And his army was numbered at fifty-four thousand four hundred.

7 “Then comes the tribe of Zebulun, and Eliab the son of Helon shall be the leader of the children of Zebulun.” 8 And his army was numbered at fifty-seven thousand four hundred. 9 “All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Judah, one hundred and eighty-six thousand four hundred—these shall break camp first.

10 “On the south side shall be the standard of the forces with Reuben according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.” 11 And his army was numbered at forty-six thousand five hundred.

12 “Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Simeon, and the leader of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.” 13 And his army was numbered at fifty-nine thousand three hundred.

14 “Then comes the tribe of Gad, and the leader of the children of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.”15 And his army was numbered at forty-five thousand six hundred and fifty. 16 “All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Reuben, one hundred and fifty-one thousand four hundred and fifty—they shall be the second to break camp.

17 “And the tabernacle of meeting shall move out with the camp of the Levites in the middle of the camps; as they camp, so they shall move out, everyone in his place, by their standards.

18 “On the west side shall be the standard of the forces with Ephraim[13] according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.” 19 And his army was numbered at forty thousand five hundred.

20 “Next to him comes the tribe of Manasseh[14], and the leader of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.” 21 And his army was numbered at thirty-two thousand two hundred.

22 “Then comes the tribe of Benjamin, and the leader of the children of Benjaminshall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.” 23 And his army was numbered at thirty-five thousand four hundred. 24 “All who were numbered according to their armies of the forces with Ephraim, one hundred and eight thousand one hundred—they shall be the third to break camp.

25 “The standard of the forces with Dan shall be on the north side according to their armies, and the leader of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.” 26 And his army was numbered at sixty-two thousand seven hundred.

27 “Those who camp next to him shall be the tribe of Asher, and the leader of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.” 28 And his army was numbered at forty-one thousand five hundred.

29 “Then comes the tribe of Naphtali, and the leader of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.” 30 And his army was numbered at fifty-three thousand four hundred. 31 “All who were numbered of the forces with Dan, one hundred and fifty-seven thousand six hundred—they shall break camp last, with their standards.”

Even though the Bible consistently speaks of the "twelve tribes," there are 14 different tribes that are named in various places. Some lists omit one or more of the tribes. Other lists (like the one in numbers) contain at least 13, and some lists even break Manasseh down into 2 tribes. No single tribe is consistently omitted from these lists. Sometimes you see Levi omitted. Other times Simeon, Gad, and Asher, and in the Revelation account the tribe of Dan is omitted. Yet all 14 of these tribes are listed at various points in scripture.

How many sons Jacob had?

And at this time Judas was with them. Nothing in this passage excludes more apostles being called.

Adding on your own is not permitted.

then you also admit this, because Matthias makes 13. And Paul would be 14. Interesting that this mirrors the 12 tribes, where there were 12 initially, but following that one (Joseph) was omitted from most lists and 2 others (Ephraim and Manasseh) took his place in subsequent accounts.

Matthias simply replaced Judas;hence he cannot be 13th.

 

[Righttruth]

I would like to accuse you of blasphemy: Let's read through

2 Corinthians 12: 14-18, "Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you? 18I urged Titus to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the same footsteps by the same Spirit?

There is another baseless statement of Paul that finds no support from Jesus or from the OT [another invention from Paul]: After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. Only crafty man can use word 'trickery'. Why he says he doesn't want their possessions yet sends Titus to collect? What kind of a double talk is this? Again he contradicts his own statement and asks children of their savings.

He was questioning the Corinthians of the same things you are questioning him of.... "That he caught believers by trickery or craftiness" Are you sure, you weren't a part of this???

Looks like I am the only one here who is not falling to his trap of trick.

 

[Righttruth]

I said "He was called into Apostleship!!!

"

No. Called to take up the ministry of Jesus.

 

[civilwarbuff]

NT is not scripture. It ended by the Holy Spirit.

So you deny the Gospels as well?

 

[redleghunter]

That can happen because nobody is perfect. For example, St. Augustine erred in formulating certain orthodox concepts. His belief in certain traditions are questionable.



Yes, I admit that I exaggerate things. But Paul claimed craftiness:

2 Corinthians 12
16 But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

Augustine was not explicitly commissioned by the Holy Spirit and set apart. We are back to the false prophet claim. If Paul deceived in any way then we must reject his teachings. I believe this is what you imply, but have not clearly confirmed.

2 Corinthians 12:16---Another case of the tongue in cheek form of speech Paul used on occasion. He is not referring to his teachings at all but how he shepherded the Corinthian flock. He then shows how he was not being crafty by sending Titus and men approved to visit them.

 

[jerry kelso]

Please quote the verse.

Please quote the verse.

righttruth,
I gave you the scripture; 1 Corinthians 15:31. This is the actual scripture I protest by your rejoicing, which I have in Christ Jesus, "I Die Daily". What do think Paul was meaning and why and can you provide scriptures to harmonize with this verse that is outside of this passage? Jerry kelso

 

[Righttruth]

So you rely on the Holy Spirit to show you what books to read from sources outside the Bible, but you won't accept that the Spirit inspired Paul, whose letters are IN the Bible, to write? Or at least, you may accept some of his writings but not others.

Paul was also troubled by a messenger of Satan. I read all but accept that are complementary to the words of Jesus.

No and no.
But whatever the history, the question is, do you believe that the Bible as most of us know it - 39 books of the OT and 27 of the New - is inspired by the Holy Spirit? Is it the written word of God?

Yes, inspired by the Holy Spirit. That may include additional books of the Catholic. Apocryphal books may also contain some truths. Nevertheless, written by men with the originals lost. Hearing is more spiritual than recording. Words have been translated, modified, deleted, added by men with their biased minds.

Did the Spirit of truth inspire people to write the truth so that the Bible contains a true revelation of God and teaching about the true Saviour and the true faith? Or is some of it true, but some not to be trusted? Is there some of it that you accept, and some that you ignore in favour of books from other sources which you believe the Spirit has led you to read? How do you know that it is the Spirit who is leading you when some of the teaching about the life, gifts and fruit of the Spirit is from a man you don't trust?

JESUS chose Paul, Peter accepted him, as did the others, and called him a dear brother.
If you want us to believe that Paul was a false apostle, rejected by the church, you need to provide Scripture which says so.

Peter never called Paul an apostle nor did he say he was inspired by the Holy Spirit. John says that additional apostles are liars (Revelation 2:2)

 

[Righttruth]

righttruth,
I gave you the scripture; 1 Corinthians 15:31. This is the actual scripture I protest by your rejoicing, which I have in Christ Jesus, "I Die Daily". What do think Paul was meaning and why and can you provide scriptures to harmonize with this verse that is outside of this passage? Jerry kelso

He had great zeal to add people to his flock no matter whether it is tune with the words of Jesus or not.

 

[redleghunter]

That won't help. Puffing up and deflating nominally will not help. Why boast in the first place?



You are making a mistake. Believe in Jesus.

Paul and all of the Apostles and disciples proclaimed Christ crucified, buried and Risen. What was Paul deceiving others on?

 

[nomadictheist]

No support excepting self-proclamations!



NT is not scripture. It ended by the Holy Spirit.

Peter disagrees with you, as has been shown before. Thanks for your unsupported opinion though.

The support for Paul's apostleship has already been shown. Paul was

1. Called, chosen, and commissioned to preach the gospel by Jesus Himself (Acts 9)
2. Set apart by the Holy Spirit and sent to the gentiles by Jesus (Acts 13, Acts 22)
3. Persecuted and ultimately killed for his faith and devotion to Christ.

He has every mark of a true apostle, and there is nothing in scripture that speaks against his apostleship. If there were, you would have presented it by now.

You blindly accept an absentee's statement ignoring the witnesses of the incident! That is fanaticism for what is supposed.

No I don't. If Paul said anything that disagreed with Jesus I would be the first to question it. Why do you limit the power of God by saying that He cannot reveal His Gospel to Paul?

The only one showing fanaticism here is you. You blindly accept the writings of a mechanical engineer over the writings of St. Paul the apostle, St. Peter the apostle, and the NT writers in general.

How can he quote when he was not in His ministry?

Three possibilities come instantly to mind:
1. He heard the quote from another apostle
2. It was part of Jesus' revelation to him
3. He heard the quote from other disciples who listened to Jesus talk

Nobody can demonstrate clearly the bygone patches of history.

You need to demonstrate your ability to prove your account. I showed how the timeline matches up with the events documented in Acts. Your alternate timeline doesn't.

If you think Paul's letters include the material of the four books of the Gospel, nothing is more absurd.

Unsupported claim. Come back with verses that prove that Paul didn't preach the gospel of Christ.

How many sons Jacob had?

How many tribes are mentioned throughout the course of the Bible? Everyone knows Jacob had 12 sons, but that doesn't change the fact that there are 14 different tribes named among the "12 tribes" at various places in the Bible.

Come back with support for your claim that the other 2 tribes that are reckoned in scripture as tribes of Israel aren't valid tribes. Stop with your inane denials of the truth.

Adding on your own is not permitted.

Which is why I neither add nor take away on my own. Taking away on your own is not permitted either.

Matthias simply replaced Judas;hence he cannot be 13th.

Just like Ephraim and Manasseh replaced Joseph. As I said before, if you reckon Paul as an apostle, as he said he was and is born out by scripture, you immediately see the parallel to the 12 tribes, if you actually take the time to read the Bible that is...

Besides, doesn't matter if he replaced Judas. Judas was at one time an apostle. Then Matthias was chosen by men as an apostle. We also see in Galatians that James the brother of Jesus was an apostle. It is clear that Jesus did not limit the number of His apostles to 12, and neither should you.

 

[expos4ever]

When it comes to delivering the message of Jesus into the hearts of men, there is no efforts that is in vain,...

I would like to believe this but I am somewhat skeptical. I have been on boards like this for over a decade and I cannot recall one instance of anyone changing their position on a matter of doctrine (other than me). Can you provide even one example of a person changing their position in this, or any other, forum?

Consider the following (I added the bolding):

...as Harvard's Steven Pinker informs us, we want our version of the truth to prevail, for in the end what we're really concerned with is maintaining our status or enhancing it. What happens when our beliefs come into conflict with reality? We experience cognitive dissonance. Because this is very unpleasant we do everything we can to make it go away. Sometimes, we do this by changing our opinion. But most of the time we return to a state of well-being by simply ignoring the evidence we find discomforting. This is known as Disconfirmation Bias and it afflicts all of us, both the ignorant and the educated. (So does its cousin, Confirmation Bias, which leads people to look for evidence that reinforces their pre-existing beliefs.)

I wish I shared your optimism, but I suspect this tendency to doggedly stick with our presently held beliefs even in presence of powerful opposing evidence is especially strong in the context of religious beliefs. Why? Because "religious" thinking encourages these kinds of thoughts that only exacerbate the effects Pinker identifies:

- "these people who disagree me are doing so because they are in league with the devil";
- "I believe I have a direct line to God and I therefore my beliefs are more or less beyond the possibility of error";
- etc.

It may therefore not surprise you when I say that while I affirm the fundamental doctrines of orthodox Christianity, I also believe in the necessity to be mercilessly critical in one's thinking. If you are of a reasonable age, and you have not changed some fundamental element of your worldview by now, there is every reason to be suspicious of your own thinking.