How should we read Paul?

[nick notes]

MOD HAT ON

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Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums.

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MOD HAT OFF​

The evidence of the Bible demonstrates that Jesus is not God. I quit...good bye

 

[jerry kelso]

Thank you for expressing your opinions so eloquently.

nick notes,
I stated truth that you think is an opinion and you have stated nothing about what you think you know. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

You wrote...4. The reason you are hoping for the true Messiah to come is because you are just like those jews in Jesus days that was looking for a conquering redeemer and the physical KOH and forgot the spiritual KOG in their hearts.
Do you think you know what is going on in my mind?

nicknotes,
If you don't believe Christ was the Messiah and you can't reconcile the restitution of all things and all the prophecies about the Day of the Lord and the physical kingdom being restored so the jews would be at the head of the nations in the last day according to Isaiah 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 66:7-9 and Revelation 1:7 being the jewish nation who were the ones who pierced him and you are a real jew who should know better then yes I can deduce the fact that you probably were looking for a conquering redeemer or warrior or whatever. One thing is for sure those jews were not looking for a suffering savior because they wanted to kill the Romans. They were not being repentant.
Now if you don't understand scripture about the KOH and the KOG then you may have a different reason for believing and I would be glad to hear it. As far as what is going on in your mind I may need to read a few more posts. Jerry Kelso

 

[jerry kelso]

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

Did Jesus do this? NO!

But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

Did Jesus do this? NO!

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Has Jesus made this happen? NO!

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Has Jesus gathered the Twelve tribes of Israel? NO!

And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Is Jesus sitting on the throne in the tabernacle of David? NO!

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:

Is Jesus a King executing justice in the earth? Are Judah and Israel dwelling in safety? NO!

I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour.

Has iniquity been removed? Is every man a neighbor? NO!

Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Did Jesus build the Temple and sit upon his throne? NO!

But the humble will inherit the land
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
For the arms of the wicked will be broken,
But the Lord sustains the righteous.
The Lord knows the days of the blameless,
And their inheritance will be forever.
They will not be ashamed in the time of evil,
And in the days of famine they will have abundance.
But the wicked will perish;
And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures,
They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Has this happened? NO!

“Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’”

Has this happened? NO!

And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Has this happened? NO!

They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Has this happened? NO!

nicknotes,

1. Now we get more to the crux of why you don't believe Christ was the Messiah.
The answer you are giving is that he didn't settle the kingdom and he didn't establish the new covenant.

2. I told you Jesus didn't do these things because Israel rejected him as a nation Matthew 23:37-39.
He also had to die for the whole world and the church was also predestined as well.

3. The covenants of Abraham and David are still for Israel when they repent as a nation and Christ is the Messiah that will come back with his saints at the battle of Armageddon to restore the KOH and the nation of Israel who will have David as their King.

4. So in your blindness you were looking for a conquering Messiah but didn't get one and so you believe Jesus wasn't it. So in a round about way I knew what you were thinking.

5. Paul said the jews would be blinded till the fulness of the gentiles be come in in Romans 11:25.
2 Corinthians 3:13 he said the law was abolished and goes on to say that Moses had a veil over his head because Israel couldn't stand to see the passing away of the Mosaic law and they are still stuck in the old testament and blinded from the truth.
One day the veil will be lifted and they shall look on him whom they had pierced and they will be saved and the KOH will be restored.

6. If you think Christ wasn't the Messiah you are blinded and have tunnel vision because he was the Savior of the world and most jews don't believe it because he didn't settle the KOH which shows they had there mind more on conquering and not repenting and then conquering. This is also why many jews are atheists.

7. Are you a real ethnic jew or an orthodox jew or just like to be called a messianic?

8. For goodness sake, the begotten Son of God is the Savior of the world and he is coming back in power and great glory to establish the Messianic Kingdom and then after 1000 years give the kingdom back to God the father so God can be all in all and you can't understand that Jesus in his earthly ministry is the same Messiah as in the future when he comes to restore all things? Read your bible and step into the truth. Jerry kelso

 

[redleghunter]

Why are you always interested in me and not in my theological presentations?
I am irrelevant to this discussion. Focus on the Scriptural messages i have posted.

Frankly it matters. You are posting in a Christian only forum.

 

[Strong in Him]

I think you are asking me why I think Paul changed to join the Christian movement.
Here is a clue.....
1 Corinthians 9:9-14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle the ox while he is threshing.” God is not concerned about oxen, is He? 10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, for our sake it was written, because the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to threshin hope of sharing the crops. 11 If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ. 13 Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? 14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

This is a very slick little speech.
First he says...If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?... He is asking for money.

But then he says.....Nevertheless, we did not use this right, but we endure all things so that we will cause no hindrance to the gospel of Christ.......now Paul is playing coy like he doesn't really want any money.

But then Paul goes on to close the sale....Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? 14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.....with this pitch..the Lord directed you pay me..he closes the deal.

Paul was the original TV televangelist getting rich by fleecing the sheep.
Smarten-up and realize who Paul really was.

That doesn't answer the points I made.

Saul was a Pharisee who hated Jesus and persecuted his followers. He went to Damascus with the intention of getting all these followers arrested. Something happened before he got there ad he ended up joining them and preaching Jesus as the Messiah. He himself later suffered persecution and arrest for this belief.
I asked you, since you don't seem to accept his conversion; what happened to him? What made him start a journey as a Jesus hater, determined to arrest anyone who called him the Messiah, and end it as someone who preached that Jesus was indeed the Messiah?

And you've come up with some excuse that he wanted money??
That doesn't even make sense. He could have stolen from the apostles while they were in prison; that doesn't explain his complete and permanent change of heart.

 

[Strong in Him]

The available evidence does not indicate that Jesus was the legitimate Messiah. He didn't fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies. He did not accomplish anything that we can see to benefit mankind.

I am hopeful that eventually the true Messiah will show up.

My understanding is that a Messianic is a Jew who has come to accept and trust in Jesus as the Messiah; forgive me if I am wrong.
You call yourself a Messianic but you aren't, as you have stated that Jesus was not the Messiah. Reading other posts, it seems you don't believe that Jesus was God either.

So you are posting in a section of the forum which is for Christians only; those who accept the full deity of Christ, which you don't, and under the title of Messianic, which you clearly aren't - by your own admission.

You say that you can't believe Paul because he is a liar. I accept that you may have not read forum rules and made 2 simple mistakes, and not intended to write deliberate lies; but isn't it rather ironic that someone who accuses Paul of lying has himself been economical with the truth?

 

[Lulav]