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How should Christians punish witchcraft?

johansen

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I thought witches were deluded too, that they didn't have any real 'power' until i was heavily attacked spiritually, later the Holy spirit taught me that it was witchcraft, and if a person can't defend themselves because they are not firm, or they just don't know, it could do a lot of harm those attacks.
I spent 6 months in communication with rachel from florida, trying to figure out what the hell was going on in her mind. she insisted the spirit of her boyfriend entered into her, and the Holy Spirit told her not to let that happen, but she did it anyways.

Anyhow it took 6 months for her to trust me enough to give me enough information and i eventually realized her incestuous relationship with her father and brother, had produced in her, a desire for a non consensual relationship with God. since God wouldn't do that, but her boyfriend's spirit-demon whatever it was Would.. well, she followed after that. and i'm pretty sure she killed herself in 2020.

anyhow.. 5 years later, i see another woman having a similar problem, and i message her, and over the course of a month, i become concerned: that its the same guy.

whatever demons he's got in him.. they make women feel like they've been healed, restored, more capable of loving... but then they can't get a spiritual copy of "him" out of their head.

the second woman however, does trust me enough to tell me the whole story. and actually wants delivered, and is praying to God and is getting answers.

I do not know, in real life, with 1 or 2 exceptions (women who are 70+ years old) ... anyone with the spiritual bandwidth to do this work without becoming tempted along the way.

because its not a simple matter of "i did xyz sin and got posessessed"
its more like, their pre-existing trauma was healed, like setting a broken bone, but setting it wrong!. and you've got to pray with the person to determine what is broken but seems healed.
 
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Hazelelponi

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How should Christians punish witchcraft?​


I guess we have a totally different interpretation of what this thread is about. "Self-imposition" as you're talking about it would, IMO, be "punishing" oneself for someone else's actions.

You do live in America right? I was under the impression you did ..

I just want to make sure. I thought you did. I thought you had a military background, though perhaps I was mistaken.
 
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RDKirk

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You do live in America right? I was under the impression you did ..

I just want to make sure. I thought you did. I thought you had a military background, though perhaps I was mistaken.
That response makes no sense at all.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I thought witches were deluded too, that they didn't have any real 'power' until i was heavily attacked spiritually, later the Holy spirit taught me that it was witchcraft, and if a person can't defend themselves because they are not firm, or they just don't know, it could do a lot of harm those attacks.

You're saying the Holy Spirit told you that magic is real?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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johansen

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You're saying the Holy Spirit told you that magic is real?

-CryptoLutheran
Reminds me of when i was arguing that catholic statues of mary do not cry olive oil tears.

And something very clearly speaks to me: "there is witchcraft you do not know about".
 
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Strong in Him

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ViaCrucis

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Reminds me of when i was arguing that catholic statues of mary do not cry olive oil tears.

And something very clearly speaks to me: "there is witchcraft you do not know about".

And when the demon spoke to you, how did you respond? Did you accept the demon's words, or did you cry out to Jesus?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Why do you say it was a demon

St. John reminds us to "discern the spirits".

If a disembodied voice, or some supernatural something whispered to me, I'd be incredibly suspect of the source. If it wasn't a product of my own imagination, I wouldn't assume it was God talking to me, I'd recognize it as malicious.

A spirit that whispers about magic being real would be a malicious spirit. In other words, a demon. Of course, the most probably scenario is that it's all just psychological; but if it was external, something whispering to me and real, and lying to me, then there is only one possible conclusion.

The Holy Spirit doesn't lie. He would never tell His Faithful that magic is real when it isn't. The Holy Spirit guards us, through faith and the word of God, against such assaults against us. That is why St. Paul says to the Ephesians to be equipped with the armor of God, to defend ourselves against the flaming arrows of the devil.

A belief in magic is of the enemy, he is the one who poisons minds to believe in such nonsense in order to turn them away from Christ. Pagan superstition, like magic, has no place in Christianity.

The devil's "power" isn't that he can create something out of nothing, but in that he lies, he kills, he steals. The Apostle calls him a roaring lion, he's a hungry desperate scavenger. Whether one seeks to practice "magic" or believes that "magic" is real but evil, it makes no difference--it's still belief in non-Christian superstition. It was Pagans who believed in both these things, believing in amulets and talismans to ward against evil; and it was also Pagans who believed that witches were hiding in the woods and were responsible for people getting sick, children being lost, and the failure of crops--Christians, the Church, taught against all these things. We don't wear talismans, we don't throw animal bones, we don't divine events by the movements of the stars; and we don't attribute disease, or "bad fortune" to witches. We live in a fallen world, and people get sick and die; we live in a fallen world, bad things happen because human beings are sinful, and the world itself is sick with sin and death. Yes, the devil lurks to try to rob us of faith and joy; and yes the devil assaults mankind with a myriad of lies--but Christ is risen. He is Light illuminating the darkness, and calls us to be light too. The Church has always cast out devils in the name and by the command of Jesus Christ our Lord, for all powers and principalities in heaven and on earth are subject to Him. So we assail the devil's fallen kingdom by being ministers of truth, love, grace, and good works. For where the Holy Spirit is, there Christ is Lord, and where Christ is Lord, no power can win--though the body they may kill, God's truth abideth still, His kingdom is forever.

The Lord said we would trample serpents, and St. Paul echoes this by saying the devil would soon be crushed under our feet. Tread serpents, don't believe them when they tell you the fruit is yummy looking. Christ is risen, the devil has already lost. A defeated enemy doesn't deserve our fear, only God deserves our fear.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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FireDragon76

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Witchcraft isn't real. That was the official belief of Christians for centuries in the premodern era. Magic and witchcraft were mostly consigned to the real of peasant superstition. The persecution of witches didn't happen until the modern era, with the advent of the printing press, when malicious conspiracy theories started to be spread.
 
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FireDragon76

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So whats the mechanism for idols of mary to cry olive oil.

There is nothing in Protestant orthodoxy that necessarily precludes the possibility of miracles in Catholic churches. But FWIW, alot of such cases are easily dismissed as pious frauds, hoaxes, or wishful thinking.
 
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ViaCrucis

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So whats the mechanism for idols of mary to cry olive oil.

I don't consider images of the Blessed Virgin mother of God to be idols*.

As for claims that statues of the saints crying olive oil or similar, I'm simply skeptical of supernatural claims. To be clear, I believe in miracles, I believe God can do what God wants to do--but I am under no compulsion to accept any/all claims of the supernatural.

*Disclaimer: I am uncomfortable with the hyperdulia given to Mary as practiced by Rome; following the Lutheran Confessions I think certain practices should be avoided, which is why I do not ask the blessed and departed saints to pray for me; instead I trust the Scriptures which say that the saints and angels in heaven pray for us; such is the blessed Communion of Saints of which the Faithful, both on earth and in heaven, united together in Christ as the one Body, are united in a bond of holy and Christian love. But to claim that icons are idols is mere Iconoclasm, a heresy that was correctly rejected at the Second Council of Nicea because it was a perversion influenced by Islam and is innately anti-Christian as it is anti-Incarnation. If one is genuine interested in this subject, I would encourage a thorough study of Church History, especially the Christological debates of the First Millennium.


Secondly, from your pov, does witchcraft even exist?

In the same sense that Islam and Buddhism exist.

But first we would need to make a distinction between what Scripture is talking about which often gets translated as "witchcraft", and ideas about witchcraft which emerged in the modern period after the publication of the Malleus Malificarum at the end of the 14th century.

The Bible talks about pagan superstitions and pagan practices, such as divination; it also talks about those who consort with spirits (such as the necromancer which King Saul met in secret in order to try and speak with the departed Prophet Samuel). In the Greek of the New Testament we encounter the word pharmakeia, which is related to pharmakon, medicine and pharmakos, one who practices medicine. When the New Testament uses this word in a negative sense, it is likely referring to those who create drugs or poisons, specifically of the sort that would be imbibed in a ritualistic way as part of some Pagan practice. Not unlike how in many indigenous cultures around the world, even today, certain compounds are drank or smoked as part of a spiritual practice, to commune with one's ancestors, or with nature, or bring one visions, etc. The New Testament condemns this practice, as it does all Pagan practices, because it is a false spirituality.

The modern idea of witchcraft, which emerged in the modern West, and is rooted in Pagan beliefs about witches, no that doesn't exist. There aren't people hiding in the forest who have mystical powers to cause crops to wither, or cause disease.

And adding to this, there is the contemporary version of "witchcraft" associated with various Pagan revival movements of the 20th century, which is largely based on a misunderstanding of medieval history and a post-Enlightenment ignorance about what the middle ages were actually like; such as the myth of the "burning times". For example the religion of Wicca was invented in the mid 20th century by a guy who claimed to have secret knowledge of pagan practices which survived in Europe--he made it all up. Nevertheless, many Neo-Pagans call themselves "witches" and their various rituals and pagan practices "magick" or "witchcraft". I would consider it simply false religion, no different than any other false religion--Islam, Buddhism, etc.

I no more think a contemporary self-described "witch" has some kind of special power than I think that Buddhists are on their way to attaining liberation from samsara--I don't believe in samsara, the cycle of rebirth; I don't believe that buddhahood is real, so I consider Buddhism to simply be a religion that lacks the quality of being true; in contrast to Christianity which is based upon the truth of the Crucified and Risen Messiah--Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, our Lord.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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