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Neverstop said:.
Maybe you don't realize it, but Jesus was considered a "progressive liberal" in His earthly time; that is one of the reasons why He was crucified. Where did Jesus say we must force our hetero standards of living into the bedrooms of other people? It seems He was quite opposite. To love our neighbor is to understand they have the right to participate in whatever activies they choose to with other consenting adults.
Maybe people judge gays so harshly 'cause it is easier to place them between ourselves and the Mirror of our own Mire, than to realize we ALL have much work to do. The best way to do it is to understand we are all in this together, and our ONLY purpose is to die to self and be filled with the Holy Spirit.
First let me say two things. First there is no difference in any sin. Second, I was bisexual until 2 years after graduating high school. That having been said, being gay is wrong, and I do not judge gays, but I am sick of being made to tolerate a lifestyle I want nothing to do with. I'm sick of the minority forcing these values on me, my children, and the vast majority of the population. We recently held a vote.... a vast majority of Americans voted to re amend the constitution stating that the definition of marriage is the union between man and women. I just hope in such a tolerant wolrd you can tolerate my intolerance.
And if you believe that Christ will allow any two consenting adults to do whatever they chose, you scare me.
I'm not giving an opinion one way or another, other than comparing consensual sex and beards, is like comparing cheese and chalk.Fate276 said:
Leviticus 15:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Why is this sin so much more important than...
Leviticus 19:27 "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."
It's very easy to point a finger and be judgmental at others isn't it?
Dirtydeak said:Congratulations on your journey. I never said being gay is right, just expressing that, in the eyes of God, alll of us are wrong. Thanks be to Christ that we have Salvation, for that is the ONLY reason we have forgiveness. God gave us Grace, the least we can do is show some compassion for others.First let me say two things. First there is no difference in any sin. Second, I was bisexual until 2 years after graduating high school. That having been said, being gay is wrong, and I do not judge gays, but I am sick of being made to tolerate a lifestyle I want nothing to do with. I'm sick of the minority forcing these values on me, my children, and the vast majority of the population. We recently held a vote.... a vast majority of Americans voted to re amend the constitution stating that the definition of marriage is the union between man and women. I just hope in such a tolerant wolrd you can tolerate my intolerance.
And if you believe that Christ will allow any two consenting adults to do whatever they chose, you scare me.
How are you "being made to tolerate a lifestyle?" According to you, that part of your life is over. Bigotry is based in nothing more than lack of control. Jesus NEVER tried to CONTROL people in their personal lives; try to remember what HE said 'bout "dust off your sandals."
To make an amendment officially defining marriage between a man and a woman is to stomp all over the 1st Amendment. The "people" do not have the right to violate the rule of law. If we wish to throw out the 1st Amendment, then what makes us "Americans?" What you are talking about is Theocracy because the next step people could take is to say that "Church" is defined by a building with a Cross in it.
If you don't judge gays, why are you intolerant? That's contradictory.
I don't agree with the specific act of homosexuality, but Christ is teaching me that loving my neighbor means respecting their God Given Right of Free Will.
I used to be homophobic, thanks to Christ, He revealed my bigotry and hypocrisy.
I think the point of comparing those two is strictly satirical. Homosexuality is so focused on in our culture because we live in a patriarchy. In the eyes of many hetero men, the gay men are betraying the power structure. Ever noticed how the images of two women together are much more acceptable in our society than two men. This is also why there are the labels "gay" and "lesbian." Those are redundant 'cause if someone is "gay" then they are attracted to the same sex. Gender is irrelevant.devoted daughter said:I'm not giving an opinion one way or another, other than comparing consensual sex and beards, is like comparing cheese and chalk.
One is conventional morality, the other is just grooming.
peace
DD
Fate276 said:The purpose for this thread is to point out the fact that so many Christians pick and choose which laws appeal to them and disregard the rest and then judge others.
I was responding to Freedon Fron Ignorance's post...Fate276 said:Why would you think that anyone would say that about a Christian, what I highlighted above? Did you come up with that on your own or did someone say that to you? Or is it possible that you may view yourself in that light?
Son-cerely,Freedon Fron Ignorance said:Bah, people make me sick when they sit all high and mighty shaking their heads. Everyone is selfish and horrible, and perfect holy "you" is trying to save their pitiful souls?
Asking those questions are counterproductive and rude. This is not about incest or beastiality.groundhog said:I see.
So is it okay to:
- Have sex with your mother?
- Have sex with your sister?
- Have sex with your aunt?
- Have sex with an animal?
Read chapter 18 of Leviticus. You'll see the prohibitions against men lying with men is in the same chapter as the prohibitions I stated above. Aren't we "picking and choosing" which verses and laws to obey when we abstain from those perversions I've listed, yet somehow think it's okay for men to have sex with other men?
That is correct. But we are all called to be "witnesses".Neverstop said:It is not our job to be judges, or even jurors.
Agreed.Neverstop said:It is possible to love someone and not agree with their actions; actually, that's part of the definition of love.
Neverstop said:Asking those questions are counterproductive and rude. This is not about incest or beastiality.
There is not ONE among us who follows ALL the laws of the Bible. In fact, we all break the Ten Commandments every single day. (Remember, if one is broken, then all are broken.) That is why we need the Grace of Christ through Salvation. If we could follow those laws, we wouldn't need Christ, would we?
Remember, just because some of us may be obeying God as much as possible, it doesn't mean everyone HAS to. It is not our job to be judges, or even jurors. It was through love that Christ died for us, and it is only through love others will see the Light of the Holy Spirit.
It is possible to love someone and not agree with their actions; actually, that's part of the definition of love.
I never said it's okay for a man to lie with a man, but it is okay for consenting adults to choose how they live their lives. I am arguing that we don't have the right to be bedroom police. Yes, I am pointing out obvious hypocrosies, so if one wishes to call me a "judge" for that, so be it.Now, the point I was making is that you CAN'T state that Christians pick and choose which verses they obey without acting as a judge yourself! I'm sure the OP of this thread would agree that the Biblical mandates against sleeping with one's mother or an animal is indeed perversion. All I'm saying is that the same verse which speaks of a man lying with a man is in that SAME list. So if you say it's okay for a man to lie with a man, but it's NOT okay for a man to sleep with his mother, or have sex with an animal - then aren't YOU doing the picking and choosing as well?
We are all on/in different spectrums of understanding. You and I, and many others understand the need to repent. But, many people don't, and while we should share the message of Christ, we should not pry open their mouths and forklift down their throats. (Not saying you do this personally, just speaking in general terms.) In other words, we should tell them about God's Love with our actions, and if (1) we are Truly letting the Holy Spirit guide us, they will see that there is something really different about us and (2) the person must be in a place that will allow her/him to really seek God in their own way.According to your own logic - since we don't HAVE to obey God, then what's the whole point of the concept of repentance?
Neverstop said:I never said it's okay for a man to lie with a man, but it is okay for consenting adults to choose how they live their lives. I am arguing that we don't have the right to be bedroom police. Yes, I am pointing out obvious hypocrosies, so if one wishes to call me a "judge" for that, so be it.
We cannot compare homosexual relationships to incest or beastiality, I think that's why I got upset, sorry bout that.
We are all on/in different spectrums of understanding. You and I, and many others understand the need to repent. But, many people don't, and while we should share the message of Christ, we should not pry open their mouths and forklift down their throats. (Not saying you do this personally, just speaking in general terms.) In other words, we should tell them about God's Love with our actions, and if (1) we are Truly letting the Holy Spirit guide us, they will see that there is something really different about us and (2) the person must be in a place that will allow her/him to really seek God in their own way.
In short, our selfish desires are sinful in nature, and the gays desires are no worse than hetero's desires for lots of money.
Fate276 said:Leviticus 19:27 "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."
That is so cool, thanks, 'cause we have the problem of no voice inflection, it is hard to understand/sometimes easy to misunderstand the other person's tone.groundhog said:I'm not disagreeing with that. And I'm sorry for the tone of my response.
I'm not saying that anyone is condoning homosexuality. I'm just pointing out a technicality. I realize you can't compare homosexuality to bestiality or incest. In fact, I really wasn't trying to say anything about homosexuality, per se. God knows I have no right to say anything about it, pro or con.I was just pointing out a flaw in the reasoning used to show how Christians pick and choose the "rules" they obey. I.E. you can't refer to certain Bible "sin lists" and single out homosexuality as acceptable, while still using the same Bible list to show how incest and bestiality are wrong. It doesn't work that way. Either each item on the whole list is equally sinful, or it's all irrelevant.
Maybe we have different understandings of what this means. I am comfortable in thinking that enough Christians have voiced their understanding that homosexuality is wrong. The problem is, not enough gay people have also been told they are still JUST as loved as heteros. Telling a truly gay person to stop being gay is like telling a hetero "Don't committ any more sins." Some would argue that we could tell them not to participate in the acts. There may be some validity to this, but if it means the person would have to be alone for the rest of her/his life, then I disagree. One of the best ways we grow spiritually and emotionally is to have an intimate partner.That is correct. But we are all called to be "witnesses".
The child on the freeway analogy seems to fail on several levels. As already addressed, Gays understand what Christians think God thinks about them. Also, gay people are not "children," and this reduces their intelligence in an insulting manner.But is it "love" to allow a child to play out on a busy freeway, knowing it can mean the death of the child and the trama of whomever hit run over it, and not not something to prevent it?
Is it "love" to see someone living in unrepentant sin and say nothing, knowing that it will mean eternal agony according to God's word?
Is it "love" to know that the answer to true joy and a fulfilled life lies in a one-on-one personal relationship with Jesus Christ, our savior and creator of the universe, and keep it selfishly to yourself?
Prov 3:11-12
"11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline
and do not resent his rebuke,
12 because the LORD disciplines those he loves,
as a father [2] the son he delights in."
Heb 12:5-6
"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."
Prov 13:24
"24 He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him"
Indeed LOLNeverstop said:I think the point of comparing those two is strictly satirical.
How true; whats the deal with that? Its ironic to me that the image is more acceptable of two women, and how much many men like that since they are enjoying something in which they have been eliminated from the equation!Neverstop said:Homosexuality is so focused on in our culture because we live in a patriarchy. In the eyes of many hetero men, the gay men are betraying the power structure. Ever noticed how the images of two women together are much more acceptable in our society than two men .
Neverstop said:Try to remember that what many Christians call "conventional morality" is not universal, but the Right is trying to force it that way.
Can you (or anyone else) think of an episode in scripture where Jesus tried to force His morality onto others? (The disciples do not count) Jesus is our example, and if even God did not try to force other people's lifestyles, but just love them, then it seems that is what we should try to do.
Men like to see two (or more) women together for the same principles slave owners liked to look in the fields and see all their slaves working together. Women are not nearly as free as we would like to think...because to think otherwise means there is much more work to do. Much like the institution of racism.devoted daughter said:Indeed LOL
How true; whats the deal with that? Its ironic to me that the image is more acceptable of two women, and how much many men like that since they are enjoying something in which they have been eliminated from the equation!
It is unfortunate that many take it upon themselves in the name of whatever to judge, or determine what is best for another human being spiritually, and morally, and in the case of homosexuals, between two consenting adults. It is simply none of my business.
No, I cant think of anywhere that Jesus forces anyone to do anything. I find another irony in his use of the centurion as demonstrating that he had never seen such faith.
(Mat 8;5-13). I will leave it to anyone who has a question about this to look it up for himself, but the word servant, isnt the word in the original Greek text. There are two words in Greek for boy/young man, the one from the original text was the other word for boy/young man that denotes a special/different sort of relationship, (i.e. they were lovers). I guess the original text is too unpalatable to most to be translated as such.
Apparently, not only did Christ not discriminate; he made an example of this man Never have I seen such faith. Hmmm.
DD
I couldn't agree more with your statemant that "Jesus us our example."Neverstop said:Can you (or anyone else) think of an episode in scripture where Jesus tried to force His morality onto others? (The disciples do not count) Jesus is our example, and if even God did not try to force other people's lifestyles, but just love them, then it seems that is what we should try to do.
Thou shalt not lie is not in the ten commandments (false witness is). Lying is mentioned elsewhere. No command is more important than another, as far as obeying God goes. If we break any command, we show ourselves to be as bad as a person who breaks all the commands. What should be emphasised is another matter. If one command is called into question, it makes sense to defend it rather a command that is not, and so emphasize it more, not that it should be deemed more essential to obey in an absolute sense.philosopherthales said:Why isn't "thou shalt not have homosexual relations" in the group of 10 commandments? It seems that being put in this list makes a restriction more important. Though, it seems to have been less important to God to include than "thou shalt not lie". Why is homosexuality emphasized now-a-days more than lying?
Bestiality, no. Consensual incest, yes.Neverstop said:We cannot compare homosexual relationships to incest or beastiality, I think that's why I got upset, sorry bout that.
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