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Isaiah 65:18 ESVGod did not create Jerusalem (please show me the verse where you think it says He did).
Again, that is a misuse of that word. To create is to make something from nothing. You rearranged already existing images on a screen, and saved it by rearranging the electrons on a disk, but you didn't create anything.We are capable of creating things. I created a spreadsheet in Excel today.
What you are saying and what you mean are not the same thing.Sure I did, I created a recipe and a football team. Again, just because you don't like how I'm using the word, doesn't mean that my use of the word is grammatically or typographically incorrect. What I am saying is correct and true.
The verse you cited says that God is the creator of Israel. God is the Creator of everything. But man is not the creator of anything.God did create Jerusalem. That's what the Bible says. How dare you deny scripture.
Scripture says that God made man's body from the dust He had already created. And then He created from nothing the soul that He put into the body He had formed. God did indeed create man, but He did it in several separate processes.No, God created mankind on day 6. Now you're acting like mankind was never created in Genesis chapter 1. As if when God created a living soul, and Adams body was mysteriously already there.
Yes, he is asking God to create a new, living heart/soul/spirit to replace the dead heart/soul/spirit that died due to sin. Not a physical heart as if God needed to do heart surgery, but the making of a new living spirit to replace the old dead spirit.No. The psalmist isn't asking for anything material here. He's not asking for heart surgery.
There is a physical something that makes the North north and the South south. God created that.The North and South aren't physical objects. Nothing material is coming out of nothing.
They were repeats of the same explanation already given. God creates, man cannot.Apparently not because you've just skipped all the other examples I've given.
Actually, that is exactly what wind is, lol.Amos 4:13, God created wind.
Wind does not appear out of thin air.
You are correct, the Bible does not talk about any "big bang". It talks about God making everything there is out of nothing at all, and then forming it the way He wanted it, and hanging the stars in space where He wanted them, and making the laws of nature the way He wanted them, and making everything work properly. The first is creation (making everything out of nothing) and only God can do that. Mankind can only do the second part, reforming what is already there into new shapes.I know, people usually get their feelings hurt when they realize that the Bible isn't talking about the Big Bang. But that's just how it is.
I stand corrected, the verse does say that God created Jerusalem. And it uses the Hebrew word "בוֹרֵ֧א (ḇō·w·rê)" which means:Isaiah 65:18 ESV
[18] But be glad and rejoice forever in that which I create; for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy, and her people to be a gladness.
Just because you don't like what the Bible says, does not give you the right to deny it.
It is not a misuse of the word to say that I created an excel spreadsheet today.Again, that is a misuse of that word. To create is to make something from nothing. You rearranged already existing images on a screen, and saved it by rearranging the electrons on a disk, but you didn't create anything.
What you are saying and what you mean are not the same thing.
The verse you cited says that God is the creator of Israel. God is the Creator of everything. But man is not the creator of anything.
Scripture says that God made man's body from the dust He had already created. And then He created from nothing the soul that He put into the body He had formed. God did indeed create man, but He did it in several separate processes.
Yes, he is asking God to create a new, living heart/soul/spirit to replace the dead heart/soul/spirit that died due to sin. Not a physical heart as if God needed to do heart surgery, but the making of a new living spirit to replace the old dead spirit.
There is a physical something that makes the North north and the South south. God created that.
They were repeats of the same explanation already given. God creates, man cannot.
Actually, that is exactly what wind is, lol.
You are correct, the Bible does not talk about any "big bang". It talks about God making everything there is out of nothing at all, and then forming it the way He wanted it, and hanging the stars in space where He wanted them, and making the laws of nature the way He wanted them, and making everything work properly. The first is creation (making everything out of nothing) and only God can do that. Mankind can only do the second part, reforming what is already there into new shapes.
Nope. It's not ex nihilo.I stand corrected, the verse does say that God created Jerusalem. And it uses the Hebrew word "בוֹרֵ֧א (ḇō·w·rê)" which means:
Usage: The Hebrew verb "bara'" primarily means "to create" and is used in the Bible to denote the divine act of creation. It is a term that signifies the initiation of something new, often implying a creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), which is a unique attribute of God's creative power. Unlike other Hebrew words for making or forming, "bara'" is exclusively used in reference to God's creative acts, underscoring His sovereignty and omnipotence.
Scripture says that God made man's body from the dust He had already created. And then He created from nothing the soul that He put into the body He had formed. God did indeed create man, but He did it in several separate processes.
It's not talking about something physical. It's just saying that God created the North and the south.There is a physical something that makes the North north and the South south. God created that.
Actually, that is exactly what wind is, lol.
@Doug BrentsSo what, you read Genesis 2 before you read Genesis 1? Is that how you justify your opinion, by reading scripture backwards?
How about the fish and birds. Was God only creating their souls too and not their physical bodies?
And yet for some reason, this doesn't apply to earth and earth must be a material creation even when the exact same word, bara, is used?
It's not talking about something physical. It's just saying that God created the North and the south.
Wind does not appear out of nothing. It's atoms moving around in the sky.
It is a correct use of the word in English, but it is not the correct usage of the Hebrew word from which we translate "create". That word is attributed ONLY to God, and means that He made something out of nothing.It is not a misuse of the word to say that I created an excel spreadsheet today.
Maybe you aren't a native English speaker. But this is perfectly correct use of the word.
No, that is not a false assumption at all. There was nothing in existence before God created everything, and everything will be destroyed completely at the end of time. It will all be consumed and will not be found, because there will be no place for it.Nope. It's not ex nihilo.
God bara'd Jacob. Do you think that Jacob appeared out of thin air?
Isaiah 43:1 ESV
[1] But now thus says the Lord, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: “Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.
There are lots of examples in scripture where it doesn't involve matter appearing out of nothing.
So I'm Genesis 1, it's a false assumption that this is what is being described of heaven and earth.
And that's a fact.
No, I read it all, and then I use Scripture to interpret Scripture and clarify what it says.So what, you read Genesis 2 before you read Genesis 1? Is that how you justify your opinion, by reading scripture backwards?
No, He created the animals and plants out of nothing. It does not say that He formed them from the dust, or that He fashioned them; it says He created them.How about the fish and birds. Was God only creating their souls too and not their physical bodies?
Wind is just thin air. God created the air (out of nothing), and He created the rules that govern wind (out of nothing). He creates, we do not.Wind does not appear out of nothing. It's atoms moving around in the sky.
It is a correct use of the word in English, but it is not the correct usage of the Hebrew word from which we translate "create". That word is attributed ONLY to God, and means that He made something out of nothing.
It's the same Hebrew word for humanity on day 6. So now you're picking and choosing and changing it up.No, He created the animals and plants out of nothing. It does not say that He formed them from the dust, or that He fashioned them; it says He created them.
Nope. It is using Scripture to clarify Scripture. We are told that God created (made from nothing) man. But then we are told that God formed His body from the dust He had already created on day one. So what part of man did God create? It says that God "breathed the breath of life" into the body He had made. That breath of life (the soul of man) is what God created in that moment. It did not exist before He breathed it into the body He had made.It's the same Hebrew word for humanity on day 6. So now you're picking and choosing and changing it up.
That's nothing more than mental gymnastics. Reading chapter 2 first, and ducking and dodging in chapter 1 while interpreting the text in a backwards chronological order.
Youre not using scripture to justify scripture. You're doing gymnastics to escape the obvious.Nope. It is using Scripture to clarify Scripture. We are told that God created (made from nothing) man. But then we are told that God formed His body from the dust He had already created on day one. So what part of man did God create? It says that God "breathed the breath of life" into the body He had made. That breath of life (the soul of man) is what God created in that moment. It did not exist before He breathed it into the body He had made.
He certainly had a mother. But then, so did Jesus, and He (His body at least) was created out of nothing inside of Mary. So did God create Jacob inside his mother? Or is this a case of the word create being used to indicate "formed from what is" rather than "made from nothing"? I would lean toward the latter, but the former is not out of the question given the wording. Maybe there was only one child, Esau, and God made Jacob out of nothing and put him in with Esau. Is this a stretch, certainly, but it is not beyond what God is capable of doing.Youre not using scripture to justify scripture. You're doing gymnastics to escape the obvious.
Did Jacob appear out of nothing? Or did he have a mother?
Jacob wasn't born of a virgin and was not God incarnate.He certainly had a mother. But then, so did Jesus, and He (His body at least) was created out of nothing inside of Mary. So did God create Jacob inside his mother? Or is this a case of the word create being used to indicate "formed from what is" rather than "made from nothing"? I would lean toward the latter, but the former is not out of the question given the wording. Maybe there was only one child, Esau, and God made Jacob out of nothing and put him in with Esau. Is this a stretch, certainly, but it is not beyond what God is capable of doing.
And also, I don't even need to push hard for this because you've already acknowledged it. But in Genesis 1, bara is related to the soul and the imago dei.@Doug Brents
And again, back to this one:
Psalm 51, the psalmist asks God to create in him, a clean heart. That's obviously not ex nihilo.
Did the psalmist not have a physical heart beforehand?
Of course he did.
And so, you cannot say, that this term, by definition, involves physical material coming out of nothing.
You could probably say that it is something coming out of nothing in some sort of metaphorical way.
But that only justifies the point. When you read that word in Genesis, what you're reading, whether you're ready to accept this or not, is not actually describing physical matter coming out of nothing.
This is an anachronistic belief born out of the early Catholic Church. Or perhaps slightly earlier in Greek philosophy of the intertestimental period.
"Creation" does not require that the thing made be physical. God created our souls out of nothing, and then breathed that soul into the body He had made for Adam.And also, I don't even need to push hard for this because you've already acknowledged it. But in Genesis 1, bara is related to the soul and the imago dei.
There is nothing physical about that. It's not talking about mankind appearing out of thin air.
So, when we read this word, bara, we need to be a little more careful than to just blindly assume that Genesis 1:1 is talking about a planet appearing out of thin air like a magic trick.
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