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How old is the earth?

Presbyterian Continuist

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Not true, according to the scriptures in Genesis 2 Adam named the animals after being placed in the garden of Eden BEFORE Eve was created. According to Genesis 1:26-31 we know that both Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day. So there is a time restraint placed on how long it took him to name the animals. According to the scriptures it happened in one day. After he was created and before Eve was created.
If you read Genesis 1 carefully, you will see that Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day. If you go to Genesis 2, you will see that Adam was created, then he was installed in the garden and instructed to work it and care for it, then he named the animals, and then God did surgery on him, taking part of his side to create Eve. All this happened on the 6th day. So many things took place involving Adam before Eve was created that obviously took more than 24 hours.
 
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The scriptures do not say that Adam cultivated the garden on the 6th day. They also don’t say that he enjoyed interacting with the animals. They do however specifically state that he named all the animals before Eve was created and that both Adam & Eve were created on the same day. So if Adam and Eve were both created on day 6 and he named all the animals before Eve was created then how many days is that? That’s common sense.
Ask any professional gardener whether a garden of a significant size can be worked and cared for in 24 hours. Also ask any Zoologist whether 25,000 different species and types of animals and birds could be counted in the daylight hours of a 24 hour day. Ask any doctor whether a person could recover from serious surgery in 24 hours.. I'll bet you my bottom dollar that they will answer in the negative. In fact, all three will just laugh at you.

Also, it would be understandable that people in Moses' day would interpret the "day" of Genesis 1 as 24 hour days, because back then they would have no idea of the Cosmos or the Physics of it. It is in more recent times as scientific knowledge has increased that many scientists are doubting the 24 hour day interpretation of Genesis 1, on the evidence before them.

Of course religious ignorance always opposes scientific evidence. Galileo was forced to recant by the Established Church when he announced his discovery that the Sun, and stars actually did not revolve around the earth. And other early scientists were threatened with charges of heresy because they said the earth wasn't flat.
 
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I didn’t say that Jeremiah says that God changes the laws of physics. I said it’s an ambiguous statement to base an interpretation on that the laws of physics never change. That’s Dr Hugh Ross’s interpretation of the verse. Jesus walking on water refutes his interpretation of that verse.
As I said, when Jesus is operating in His humanity, he does observe the laws of physics. But remember that He is also God, because He never gave up His deity, so there were times when He was able to operate outside of the laws of physics without changing them. This is a good reason why we can't do those things like walk on water, feed multitudes of people, turn water into wine, direct over 150 fish to a fisherman's net, walk through walls and call a four day old dead person out from the grave. It is because we don't have a deity side to us in the same way that Jesus had. We are limited to the laws of physics and cannot operate outside of them. But Jesus being God as well as man is well able to, when He sees it is fit to do so.
 
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Yes I agree with you. Dr Ross believes the days were epochs but my point was that he doesn’t support the idea of longer days than what we have now. My problem with his interpretation of Yom as meaning epochs is how many evenings and mornings are in said epochs? The scriptures say “there was evening and there was morning” singular form, not plural.
Further to my previous post: Because the people at the time of the Exodus would not have any knowledge about the physics of the universe, geology, astronomy, biology, or zoology, they would have no idea of anything scientific about the creation of cosmos. So Moses could use only the Hebrew language with its limited vocabulary available to him to describe Creation and how it developed. He would have known that the Hebrew word "yom" would have several different meanings, and so the easiest way to describe the different phases of creation would be to use that word rather than a more detailed description which would have been right over the heads of his contemporary readers. So, in the absence of relevant scientific knowledge, they would have readily accepted that the creation developed over six days. But as scientific knowledge increased, many started to wonder if the creation happened in strict 24 hour days. Of course, the religious zealots opposed any scientific explanation that God created the cosmos other than some kind of simultaneous "magic" where everything suddenly appeared over night, so scientists were accused of heresy and some were burned at the stake for offering scientific explanations that didn't comply with the religious speculation from people who failed to read the whole Bible, but based their ideas on just limited parts of it. Even today we have religious zealots accusing scientists of heresy and cultish notions when the latter attempt to show by actual physical evidence that the religious zealots may be wrong in their interpretation of Scripture.

My other point is that God created the cosmos from outside of space-time continuum. He created time, so He is not limited by it, because He is outside of it. Therefore He could take as long as He wanted to create the cosmos. We limit Him to a time frame because we are thinking from within the space-time continuum. Therefore if He decided to take six epochs for billions of years to create from one to five, then there was nothing to stop him. However, the 6th is different, and that epoch could have taken as little as six months or even a year to complete the final act of creation. Therefore, because of the physical scientific evidence, the meaning of "yom" being an "epoch" of unspecified time would be more consistent with it. I think it is more believable to say that God took billions of years to form the universe and the world as the dating of the physical evidence shows, than God making everything magically appear and making it look like it was billions of years old.
 
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So far I’ve repeatedly demonstrated that OEC is not a sound theology because it cannot be explained without contradicting what is written in the scriptures. Creation is a miracle brothers & sisters, it can’t be explained by science and it does not coincide with what science tells us.
There is no doubt that Creation is a miracle. Hebrews makes that quite clear in chapter 11 that by faith we believe that the universe was created out of things that do not appear. So our whole universe, galaxies, stars, planets, our solar system, sun, and earth was created out of nothing that existed in the first place.

It is a miracle to us because it was designed and created by a person with superior knowledge, intellect and power, from a reality outside the finite universe that He created.

But there is no evidence that Creation can't be explained by science and that it does not coincide with the scientific evidence that is plain to see. It is not a matter of the Bible showing that science is wrong, but that science is continually showing us that the Bible is right.

The fact that creation took 6 "days", the Hebrew word "yom" meaning "epoch" as one of its five meanings, is proved to be right through scientific evidence that shows, without referring to the Bible, that the creation of the cosmos was in six stages. Atheistic scientists would say the same thing. Those who maintain that the meaning of "yom" is limited to the 24 hour day, are ignoring that "yom" has five meanings and each meaning is determined by the context. Therefore there is nothing to stop God creating the cosmos in six stages and yet rightly stating in Scripture that it took six "yom'"s to achieve it. The religious zealots who accuse scientists of heresy for saying that creation was not done in six 24 hour days, have a blind spot, not understanding the nature of the Hebrew language. Often these zealots are not Hebrew scholars, and most who had PhDs in Biblical languages have absolutely no difficulty in accepting that the word "yom" in the context of Genesis 1 describes epochs rather than 24 hour days.

These religious zealots have the same attitude as the Established Church zealots in Galileo's time who refused to accept his finding that the Sun did not revolve around the earth, but in actual fact the earth revolved around the sun. And the zealots refused to accept that the earth was round and not flat. They also had no idea of the nature of gravity when they believed that the world was totally encased in a dome of water above the atmosphere. Gravity would have prevented any body of water from remaining up there without immediately falling to earth. These zealots tend to accuse Christian scientists of being theistic evolutionists when these same scientists know that the cosmos was intricately designed and constructed, and did not come about by chance over billions of years, and that all life as we know it did not develop from an amoeba in a primordial soup. As the saying: "Rome wasn't built in a day", but rather designed and constructed over time and because we know that the Empire State building was not magically constructed in 24 hours, we know that the universe and our world was designed and constructed over a period of time although was nothing to God being outside of time, took billions of years within our space-time continuum.

In the context of Romans 1 where Paul said that those who did not have the Scriptures would be able to see God in His creation, if he had today's benefit of scientific evidence, he would without hesitation say to those who had not heard of the God of the Bible through the Scriptures, "Look at the scientific evidence and see the miracle of God's creation that shows that He really exists, and if you seek Him, you will find Him."
 
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Was creation considered to be a supernatural event?
Yes. It didn't come about through evolution involving chance. It was carefully designed and constructed by a superior intelligence with superior knowledge and power. God created the laws of physics, as well as creating time, so in that He operated outside of time and those laws, for us it was supernatural, while with God operating from a reality outside of our three dimensional reality, constructing a whole cosmos out of nothing would be natural for Him.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Is creation considered to be a supernatural event?
Absolutely, creating something from nothing is impossible according to the laws of science and creating an entire universe with life and a working ecosystem in 6 days is just as impossible.
 
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BNR32FAN

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If you read Genesis 1 carefully, you will see that Adam and Eve were created on the 6th day. If you go to Genesis 2, you will see that Adam was created, then he was installed in the garden and instructed to work it and care for it, then he named the animals, and then God did surgery on him, taking part of his side to create Eve. All this happened on the 6th day. So many things took place involving Adam before Eve was created that obviously took more than 24 hours.

I’ve already proven that it’s not impossible. The only thing Adam had to do was name the animals. It doesn’t say that he started cultivating on day 6.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Ask any professional gardener whether a garden of a significant size can be worked and cared for in 24 hours. Also ask any Zoologist whether 25,000 different species and types of animals and birds could be counted in the daylight hours of a 24 hour day. Ask any doctor whether a person could recover from serious surgery in 24 hours.. I'll bet you my bottom dollar that they will answer in the negative. In fact, all three will just laugh at you.
Please show me the verse that says that Adam actually started cultivating the garden on day 6. You’re exaggerating what actually happened because you refuse to accept what is actually written in the scriptures. Ask any doctor if a man can be created from dust from the ground. Ask any doctor if a man can be brought back to life after being dead for 3 days. Ask any doctor if a person can instantly become a pillar of salt. Ask any doctor if a virgin can conceive and bare a child. Ask any doctor if a blind person can be healed instantly by rubbing spit & dirt in his eyes. Ask any doctor if a paralyzed person can be healed instantly by nothing more than saying “pick up your mat and walk”. The only ones who will say these are possible are the ones that actually believe what is written in the Bible.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Ask any professional gardener whether a garden of a significant size can be worked and cared for in 24 hours. Also ask any Zoologist whether 25,000 different species and types of animals and birds could be counted in the daylight hours of a 24 hour day. Ask any doctor whether a person could recover from serious surgery in 24 hours.. I'll bet you my bottom dollar that they will answer in the negative. In fact, all three will just laugh at you.

Also, it would be understandable that people in Moses' day would interpret the "day" of Genesis 1 as 24 hour days, because back then they would have no idea of the Cosmos or the Physics of it. It is in more recent times as scientific knowledge has increased that many scientists are doubting the 24 hour day interpretation of Genesis 1, on the evidence before them.

Of course religious ignorance always opposes scientific evidence. Galileo was forced to recant by the Established Church when he announced his discovery that the Sun, and stars actually did not revolve around the earth. And other early scientists were threatened with charges of heresy because they said the earth wasn't flat.
Do you believe that Jesus was born from a virgin, that He was God, and that He died and was resurrected after being dead for 3 days?
 
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I’ve already proven that it’s not impossible. The only thing Adam had to do was name the animals. It doesn’t say that he started cultivating on day 6.
It says it in Genesis 2. The second account of day 6 is in more detail.
 
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BNR32FAN

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So Moses could use only the Hebrew language with its limited vocabulary available to him to describe Creation and how it developed
Not true because they understood numbers and could’ve easily understood that the earth was millions of years old.
 
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Do you believe that Jesus was born from a virgin, that He was God, and that He died and was resurrected after being dead for 3 days?
Yes. The virgin birth was achieved by the Holy Spirit working from outside of our space time continuum. As I said before, as God who created our space-time continuum was able to raise Himself from the dead, because He is above our laws of physics. He doesn't need to change the laws of physics to do any of His miracles.
 
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BNR32FAN

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He would have known that the Hebrew word "yom" would have several different meanings, and so the easiest way to describe the different phases of creation would be to use that word rather than a more detailed description which would have been right over the heads of his contemporary readers.
This definition of yom used in the creation days ignores the term “there was evening and there was morning”. The definition your referring to is not used the same was the word yom is used in the creation days. The definition you’re referring to is used like this, in the day of Noah, or in the day of Nebuchadnezzar. That’s how the definition you’re referring to is used. It’s not used that way when there is a number placed before like 6 days.
 
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This definition of yom used in the creation days ignores the term “there was evening and there was morning”. The definition your referring to is not used the same was the word yom is used in the creation days. The definition you’re referring to is used like this, in the day of Noah, or in the day of Nebuchadnezzar. That’s how the definition you’re referring to is used. It’s not used that way when there is a number placed before like 6 days.
If we take "there was evening and there was morning" literally then it tells of the hours of darkness between evening and morning, not of the daylight hours, which would have been "morning then evening". Alternatively, "evening" followed by "morning" could very well describe a starting and ending point with any amount of time in between. I think you may have a blind spot where you think that God created the cosmos from within our space-time continuum in which the 6 days might have been 24 hour days in our three dimensional reality. But God's reality is in a dimension that does not include time. In fact, measurable time does not appear until Adam is created. This would make the 6th phase of creation much shorter than the previous five. So God can take all the time He likes to create and set up the world, because only He and the angels exist in those five phases of creation. He is not on a timetable, nor does he need to catch the next train, so He can take all the time He needs to ensure that His creation is perfectly constructed according to His design.

Therefore if the meaning of "yom" used for the 6 phases of creation, then saying the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and sixth "epoch" is quite consistent with the scientific evidence seen in nature.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It says it in Genesis 2. The second account of day 6 is in more detail.
It does not say that Adam even began to cultivate the garden.

“Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2‬:‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

It only says that God put him there for that purpose. It doesn’t say that he started cultivating on day 6.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yes. The virgin birth was achieved by the Holy Spirit working from outside of our space time continuum. As I said before, as God who created our space-time continuum was able to raise Himself from the dead, because He is above our laws of physics. He doesn't need to change the laws of physics to do any of His miracles.
I have no idea where this space time continuum idea came from but it’s not supported in the scriptures and it’s not even necessary for Mary to become pregnant because there was no need to alter time or enter into any other time space dimension for her to become pregnant. That could’ve easily just happened in real time.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It says it in Genesis 2. The second account of day 6 is in more detail.
What Bible version are you using that says that Adam actually began cultivating on the 6th day because I can’t find a single Bible translation that says that.
 
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FaithT

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Absolutely, creating something from nothing is impossible according to the laws of science and creating an entire universe with life and a working ecosystem in 6 days is just as impossible.
Sorry, I’ve been skipping around a bit here, but you’re a YEC, correct?
 
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oikonomia

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The universe can be created inherently deceptive without God being a liar because He specifically told us how long it took Him to create them and how long ago He created them. He is not obligated to create the universe in any particular fashion. The reason why the universe appears to be deceptive could be because of the same reason that Jesus spoke in parables.

“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭13‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Jesus didn’t try to convince people who were not interested in listening to Him, instead He spoke in parables so that they would not understand and only those who were interested in listening to Him would understand. I think the appearance of the age of the universe was purposely created in such a way that those who seek to deny Him will have evidence against Him. It’s apparent to me that God doesn’t want irrefutable proof of His existence during this age. Those who want to know Him, He will reveal Himself to them and those who want to reject Him, He will not reveal Himself to them.
I think I agree with you that God has so done many things so that IF we really do not want Him, He gives us a way out.

There is no coercion against the will. It is as if God has said "Here is evidence of Me. But if you really don't want Me, here's a little exit door
you can step out."
 
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