How old is the earth?

[BNR32FAN]

I have seen a lot of miracles and it all comes down to positive or negative energy.

Matthew 21:22 If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.”

I can absolutely testify to this. Now not every prayer of mine is granted but there are often times that they are. Probably the most profound miracle that I’ve personally experienced aside from my life and the birth of my son, happened at a trampoline park. I’ve shared this story a few times here on CF so some of you might’ve read it already but I try not to miss any opportunity to share this miracle that God did for me. So I was at an indoor trampoline park with my family and my daughter and I were in this huge ball pit. It was probably about 40 feet by 20 feet and about 3 feet deep filled with plastic balls. My daughter started throwing balls at me and I started throwing them back at her so I decided to really outdo her by scooping both of my arms deep into the ball pit and I scooped a whole mess of balls out hurling all of them at her and as my arms were out of the ball pit and up in the air my wedding ring flew off my finger. I felt it come off and I quickly checked and it was gone. I panicked and started looking all over the top of the balls but couldn’t see it. So I plunged to the bottom and starting sliding my hands on the floor to comb the floor of the ball pit trying to find it because it was impossible to see the floor down there. I found a ring and got all excited until I came up only to see that it wasn’t mine. So I gave it to a person that worked there so she could put it in their lost & found. Then I went back and continued combing the floor with my hands. I found a cell phone. Gave it to the person working there. Went back a third time and continued searching for my ring. I searched hard for about 45 minutes when my
Wife said her and the kids were getting hungry. So I stopped, we ordered a pizza and sat down and ate. After eating I sat and prayed in silence asking The Lord to please help me find my ring. I went back to the ball pit and dig my way down to the bottom and as soon as my hand touched the flood my ring was exactly in the very center of my hand. I didn’t have to slide my hand to find it, I didn’t touch it with my finger then pick it up, when my hand first touched the floor it was perfect in the center of my palm. I picked it up and came up to look at it and it was my ring. And all of the sudden my heart stopped, I felt as if adrenaline or something was coursing thru my body almost like a rush of fear but it wasn’t fear it was a rush of emotion because it occurred to me that Almighty GOD, in all His infinite wisdom and power and glory, took it upon Himself to help me, such an insignificant, unworthy person as myself. He took the time and effort to reveal to me, His presence and His care. And I realized at that moment that I was not insignificant to Him. And every time I tell that story it brings tears to my eyes. I’ll praise His Holy name for all eternity.

 

[sparow]

Witchcraft is considered to be magic and is a forbidden practice as well as consulting oracles and necromancy.

Witchcraft takes many forms; most primitive tribes have a form of it. For some witchcraft is mysticism, where witches fly around on broomsticks, other times witches are housewives who cook up brew on their stove.

Witchcraft can use magic or psychology but what I have in mind is paganism and how it uses magic or deception; the average Christian does not understand what is wrong with paganism, or them old religions of Rome, Egypt and Babylon, and so Christianity is mostly a pagan religion; they cannot discern between magic and miracle.

 

[Diamond72]

I went back to the ball pit and dig my way down to the bottom and as soon as my hand touched the flood my ring was exactly in the very center of my hand.

God helps me find things all the time. It takes a bit of effort. The Catholics believe St Anthony is the 'Patron Saint of Lost Things'.

 

[tonychanyt]

Witchcraft takes many forms; most primitive tribes have a form of it. For some witchcraft is mysticism, where witches fly around on broomsticks, other times witches are housewives who cook up brew on their stove.

Witchcraft can use magic or psychology but what I have in mind is paganism and how it uses magic or deception; the average Christian does not understand what is wrong with paganism, or them old religions of Rome, Egypt and Babylon, and so Christianity is mostly a pagan religion; they cannot discern between magic and miracle.

Good point. See How did Pharaoh's magicians turn their staffs into snakes? and follow up there

 

[Niels]

I read that before. It is not an operational definition.

Based on your response, I gather that you are looking for a definition to -quantify- how miraculous something is for the purpose of measurement. If so, are you claiming miracles cannot involve anything measurable? Or, rather, are you suggesting that the observation of something measurable disqualifies them for being miraculous?

Your rather terse response to my working definition by suggesting that I provide an -operational- definition caught me off guard, and depends on what you're looking for. I had suggested that a scientific understanding of something doesn't render a miracle non-miraculous. In the context of this thread, that the 6 days of creation means 6 days of the modern calendar or 4.5 billion years doesn't diminish the miraculous nature of creation. The point of the creation story is to establish that the God of the Bible is the creator of the universe.

I don't think we need to be able to measure miracles, or that our lack of ability to measure them needs to be included in the definition. There is danger in assuming that the world around us isn't already miraculous. It's unlikely that everything from galaxies to subatomic particles got here on their own. We can measure such things. However, that may not be useful to you if you assume that everything "just is" and doesn't require the Creator to exist.

What you may be looking for is an element of statistical likelihood. The odds of something occurring at a particular place and time, for instance. If so, what threshold would you set for quantifying something as miraculous vs. coincidental? I don't necessarily think we need to include such a criteria, but it might be useful for those who only accept a narrow definition of miracles. Just be careful that you don't try to put limits on God in the process.

 

[tonychanyt]

Based on your response, I gather that you are looking for a definition to -quantify- how miraculous something is for the purpose of measurement. If so, are you claiming miracles cannot involve anything measurable? Or, rather, are you suggesting that the observation of something measurable disqualifies them for being miraculous?

No, not necessarily.

Your rather terse response to my working definition by suggesting that I provide an -operational- definition caught me off guard, and depends on what you're looking for.

It is not what I am looking for. It is a standard in science and philosophy. See Operational definition - Wikipedia. E.g., Christians and non-Christians alike should be able to use your definition if it is an operational definition.

 

[Niels]

No, not necessarily.


It is not what I am looking for. It is a standard in science and philosophy. See Operational definition - Wikipedia. E.g., Christians and non-Christians alike should be able to use your definition if it is an operational definition.

Christians and non-Christians don't necessarily agree on a definition of God. What makes you think that they'll accept the same definition of a miracle? Christians have varied views on the subject as well, as we see in this thread. I still stand by my position that a miracle is an act of God, not magic or deception, that benefits us while drawing us closer to himself. This definition consists of three parts covered earlier in this thread, but that's the crux of it.

I predict that you will counter with "but that's not an operational definition". Even if I were to include an element of statistical likelihood, apparently. Perhaps because you are unwilling to consider what I wrote. If so, that's too bad because this is otherwise an interesting discussion. At least I asked for clarification.

If you want to be exhaustive, you might want to ask questions like:

- What is God?
- What is an act of God?
- What is magic?
- What is deception?
- What does it mean for God to draw us closer to himself?

Those questions are pertinent to the definition I use, but books can be written about each of them. The same can be said for most other definitions proposed in this thread.

Depending on how far you want to dive into the operational definition rabbit hole. For terms that we can agree upon, you may need something more quantifiable. Something measurable. To learn more about operational definitions, see the following:

Operational Definition | Encyclopedia.com
Understanding the Differences Between Constructs, Variables, and Operational Definitions
https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/cbluestone/research-methods-student-notesf10.pdf
Operationalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[tonychanyt]

Christians and non-Christians don't necessarily agree on a definition of God.

Right. But I am not talking about agreement of a definition. I am talking about whether or not a definition is operational by Christians and non-Christians alike. They don't have to agree in order to operate with it.

 

[Halbhh]

I politely disagree because there is huge emphasis on what He did on each particular day. One of the most important pieces of information in Genesis 1 is the idea that it was completed in 6 days.

It should be unambiguous in my posts that God created everything, meaning 100% of all things that exist (as believers read in the Gospel of John, chapter 1). Is there any post where somehow it seems to anyone I said God didn't created some thing that exists? If so point that out to me please, because I will want to correct any ambiguous wording in that regard. There isn't anything that exists that God didn't create.

Of course, this also means that God created physics -- the design of nature: how nature operates.

As John chapter 1 informs us: all that exists, He created.

 

[Halbhh]

I politely disagree because there is huge emphasis on what He did on each particular day. One of the most important pieces of information in Genesis 1 is the idea that it was completed in 6 days.

How long are 6 days for God?

There are many opinions, but there is also scripture itself (and please see the meaning expanded below) --

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

2 Peter 3:8 - The Day of the Lord

Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

biblehub.com

This means that any length of time for the Lord is like any other length of time. A billion years are like a day, or an hour, or a minute, for Him....

This is because time itself is also just another thing that God created, and it doesn't control or limit Him.

I think you already agree with this (even if you had a different wording, etc.).

Now if you care -- and it's not an important topic at all! -- my mere opinion: my guess is that the days in the vision in Genesis 1 were actual days like we have in a very ordinary human sense (just my guess) -- plain human style 24 hour days, and even though God could do anything (He isn't limited by our understandings or guesses....)..

God uses visions to communicate with us: 1rst Samuel 3:1, and of course the human writing Genesis 1 down was not literally there, so he had to receive it from God, meaning then both words and images, a vision.

A good example of a vision you may already know well is that given to Peter in Acts 10. In a vision, a person might see a precise image like a photograph or such, but it's not very normal, instead in a vision there is a stylistic representation of something, instead of a video or photo.

There are admittedly (I want to honestly confess we don't know) the possibilities of very many other ways those days in Genesis 1 might be (instead of only 24 hour days) because God is in control and He isn't limited to human rules!

We should admit that.

Just because a day for mortal humans is 24 hours doesn't mean that controls God. He could have a day that lasts 9 billion years, or a millisecond.

So...my guess they are 24 hour days is only a guess, not more. My guess is that the days were actually like snapshots in time of real actual days, and in the scene being seen in the vision, each day would show more of creation on Earth accomplished.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It should be unambiguous in my posts that God created everything, meaning 100% of all things that exist (as believers read in the Gospel of John, chapter 1). Is there any post where somehow it seems to anyone I said God didn't created some thing that exists? If so point that out to me please, because I will want to correct any ambiguous wording in that regard. There isn't anything that exists that God didn't create.

Of course, this also means that God created physics -- the design of nature: how nature operates.

As John chapter 1 informs us: all that exists, He created.

Well said. God created all things. There is a stream running in the back of our property. He did not come down and dig that bed with His finger, but He made the dirt, the waters, and the gravity that pulls the water across the dirt. So indirectly His "earth forming machine" created the stream.
Good point H.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It should be unambiguous in my posts that God created everything, meaning 100% of all things that exist (as believers read in the Gospel of John, chapter 1). Is there any post where somehow it seems to anyone I said God didn't created some thing that exists? If so point that out to me please, because I will want to correct any ambiguous wording in that regard. There isn't anything that exists that God didn't create.

Of course, this also means that God created physics -- the design of nature: how nature operates.

As John chapter 1 informs us: all that exists, He created.

Bless you friend, I don’t believe there was any indication in my post that I was implying that you said that some things were created without God. Your post stated that the emphasis in Genesis 1 is not about how long it took to created the universe and I politely disagree with that statement because there is huge emphasis throughout the chapter on exactly how long it took Him to create everything. Genesis 1 tells us exactly how many days it took and that each of those days were one rotation of the earth. Hence “there was evening and there was morning”.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How long are 6 days for God?

There are many opinions, but there is also scripture itself (and please see the meaning expanded below) --

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

2 Peter 3:8 - The Day of the Lord

Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

biblehub.com

This means that any length of time for the Lord is like any other length of time. A billion years are like a day, or an hour, or a minute, for Him....

This is because time itself is also just another thing that God created, and it doesn't control or limit Him.

I think you already agree with this (even if you had a different wording, etc.).

Now if you care -- and it's not an important topic at all! -- my mere opinion: my guess is that the days in the vision in Genesis 1 were actual days like we have in a very ordinary human sense (just my guess) -- plain human style 24 hour days, and even though God could do anything (He isn't limited by our understandings or guesses....)..

God uses visions to communicate with us: 1rst Samuel 3:1, and of course the human writing Genesis 1 down was not literally there, so he had to receive it from God, meaning then both words and images, a vision.

A good example of a vision you may already know well is that given to Peter in Acts 10. In a vision, a person might see a precise image like a photograph or such, but it's not very normal, instead in a vision there is a stylistic representation of something, instead of a video or photo.

There are admittedly (I want to honestly confess we don't know) the possibilities of very many other ways those days in Genesis 1 might be (instead of only 24 hour days) because God is in control and He isn't limited to human rules!

We should admit that.

Just because a day for mortal humans is 24 hours doesn't mean that controls God. He could have a day that lasts 9 billion years, or a millisecond.

So...my guess they are 24 hour days is only a guess, not more. My guess is that the days were actually like snapshots in time of real actual days, and in the scene being seen in the vision, each day would show more of creation on Earth accomplished.

Jesus said “destroy this temple and I will raise it in 3 days”. How many days was Jesus dead before He was resurrected? How many times does evening and morning occur during 1000 years? Genesis 1 doesn’t say there were evenings and mornings, it says there was evening (singular) and morning (singular).

 

[Halbhh]

Jesus said “destroy this temple and I will raise it in 3 days”. How many days was Jesus dead before He was resurrected? How many times does evening and morning occur during 1000 years? Genesis 1 doesn’t say there were evenings and mornings, it says there was evening (singular) and morning (singular).

Christ definitely there meant human style consecutive days (or at least parts of 3 days).

But you want to talk about Genesis 1....

To me, in Genesis 1, for example verse 8, it's a 24 hour day (that's my guess):
"And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day." -- Gen 1:8
"day."
י֥וֹם (yō·wm)
Noun - masculine singular
Strong's 3117: A day

As I was writing to you before (but let me try to make it more clear and complete here), my own guess is these are 24 hour days (I might be wrong on that), and they are (as I wrote above) not video or photo reproductions in the vision, but a representation of an actual specific day (my guess), and those days are like snapshots in time (as I wrote above), meaning moments in time over a longer time: like photos you have of a child growing up over the years.

Photos of your child growing up are of course of actual moments in time that are real. So, that's my own theory. If you wanted to know!

It fits everything perfectly of course.

One good thing about this theory is I don't have to add an extra assumption like that which some use of assuming (perhaps without awareness) that zero time passed during Genesis 1:1 before the moment in verse 2 where the Spirit comes to the waterworld Earth:

The wonderful verses 1 and 2 are of course not about time, but still we can notice that particular time duration (from the beginning in verse 1 and whatever duration that had to the later moment in verse 2) isn't even suggested in any way:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

no time duration stated in verse 1 for these actions...
then, eventually, this moment comes:

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

We aren't told how much time passed during verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 where the Spirit comes to the waterworld Earth, because that's not the point of the scripture.

It's not about mere duration of time, but it's about something vastly more profound, wonderful and important.

Comparatively, mere time duration in mere mortal days is of no matter (if the time in verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 was 2.6 years or 1 hour or 9 billion years....all of these mere time durations are not of importance in comparison to the real point of the text).

 

[BNR32FAN]

We aren't told how much time passed during verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 where the Spirit comes to the waterworld Earth, because that's not the point of the scripture.

Actually we are told exactly how much time had passed.

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Everything in Genesis 1 was created in 6 days including the heavens and the earth.

 

[Halbhh]

“For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20‬:‭11‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

I think you'd agree with me (or I hope so!), that we must read verses in context, to get them right.

Yes?

Let's do that.

(I'm serious. This is quite important in general. Without this full reading, a person will make very many errors over time of course)

So, trusting the Lord, let's really listen:

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

20 The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the Lord said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the Lord and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the Lord, must consecrate themselves, or the Lord will break out against them.”

23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”

24 The Lord replied, “Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the Lord, or he will break out against them.”

25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

20​

1 And God spoke all these words:​

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold. ....

-- Exodus 19, 20

-----------
I trust that first, you will entirely agree with me here that God is giving His holy law to the people of Israel, and that's the meaning of these verses.... That's what they are entirely about.

And I think you'll agree then 100% that verses 8 through 11 are about keeping the Sabbath, which example God Himself set for us, just like Christ set for us the example of baptism, even though He Himself did not need to be washed of sins.

---------

Of course, this reprises the structure of Genesis chapter 1 - 2:2 in that way.

For 6 days God created, and on the seventh He rested. (Genesis 2:2)

And so, the pattern was shown to the people, to Israel, that they should follow it.

This of course doesn't alter the fact that the wonderful verses Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 are of course not about time, but still we can notice that particular time duration (from the beginning in verse 1 and whatever duration that had to the later moment in verse 2) isn't even suggested in any way:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

no time duration stated in verse 1 for these actions...
then, eventually, this moment comes:

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

We aren't told how much time passed during verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 where the Spirit comes to the waterworld Earth, because that's not the point of the scripture.

It's not about mere duration of time, but it's about something vastly more profound, wonderful and important.

Comparatively, mere time duration in mere mortal days is of no matter (if the time in verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 was 2.6 years or 1 hour or 9 billion years....all of these mere time durations are not of importance in comparison to the real point of the text).

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think you'd agree with me (or I hope so!), that we must read verses in context, to get them right.

Yes?

Let's do that.

(I'm serious. This is quite important in general. Without this full reading, a person will make very many errors over time of course)

So, trusting the Lord, let's really listen:

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.

20 The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up 21 and the Lord said to him, “Go down and warn the people so they do not force their way through to see the Lord and many of them perish. 22 Even the priests, who approach the Lord, must consecrate themselves, or the Lord will break out against them.”

23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”

24 The Lord replied, “Go down and bring Aaron up with you. But the priests and the people must not force their way through to come up to the Lord, or he will break out against them.”

25 So Moses went down to the people and told them.

20​

1 And God spoke all these words:​

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold. ....

-- Exodus 19, 20

-----------
I trust that first, you will entirely agree with me here that God is giving His holy law to the people of Israel, and that's the meaning of these verses.... That's what they are entirely about.

And I think you'll agree then 100% that verses 8 through 11 are about keeping the Sabbath, which example God Himself set for us, just like Christ set for us the example of baptism, even though He Himself did not need to be washed of sins.

---------

Of course, this reprises the structure of Genesis chapter 1 - 2:2 in that way.

For 6 days God created, and on the seventh He rested. (Genesis 2:2)

And so, the pattern was shown to the people, to Israel, that they should follow it.

This of course doesn't alter the fact that the wonderful verses Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 are of course not about time, but still we can notice that particular time duration (from the beginning in verse 1 and whatever duration that had to the later moment in verse 2) isn't even suggested in any way:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

no time duration stated in verse 1 for these actions...
then, eventually, this moment comes:

2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

We aren't told how much time passed during verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 where the Spirit comes to the waterworld Earth, because that's not the point of the scripture.

It's not about mere duration of time, but it's about something vastly more profound, wonderful and important.

Comparatively, mere time duration in mere mortal days is of no matter (if the time in verse 1 until the moment in verse 2 was 2.6 years or 1 hour or 9 billion years....all of these mere time durations are not of importance in comparison to the real point of the text).

I hate to say this friend but this seems like omitting or disregarding specific details in the scriptures just because they weren’t the focus of the message. Whether or not they were the focus of the message is irrelevant, they are still facts that were recorded in the scriptures of what took place during that time. I don’t see these details as being irrelevant at all.

 

[Halbhh]

I hate to say this friend but this seems like omitting or disregarding specific details in the scriptures just because they weren’t the focus of the message. Whether or not they were the focus of the message is irrelevant, they are still facts that were recorded in the scriptures of what took place during that time. I don’t see these details as being irrelevant at all.

Let's see what we already agree on and consider it more carefully. As you already know and agree I'm sure, often what makes many end up mistaking the meaning of some verse or another in scripture, as we have both seen many times on the internet, is that a person takes a verse away from its context.

Then a verse can seem to be about something else, because often the meaning of a verse relies on the what's being said in full context.

So we're often telling people: read the full context. I'm pretty sure you already agree on that of course, since you've read the entire bible. You will have seen very many verses where context is crucial to correct understanding.

But let's look really close here.

Verse 11 cannot be intended to suddenly switch topics because it's right in the literal middle of the Ten Commandments where God Himself is literally speaking to the trembling people with His own voice giving them the Law...

...would He then suddenly switch topics to digress about the academic question of the age of the Earth?

No, of course not.

So, what is being said then?

He gave them the Ten Commandments.

A perfect whole. The basic Law, as perfect as if written on stone.

......
Another thing we can notice is that even in verse 11, there is a 2nd sentence, which begins with the key word "Therefore" -- a connecting word, which will have to do with the intended message and meaning.

This reminds of the "Therefore" in Matthew 7:24 which connects meaning also from verses 7:21-23 into verse 24:

It's a crucial word, because otherwise people will be tempted to discount verses 24-27 to mean less than they do mean:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Without the "therefore" we could pretend to ourselves verses 24-27 might not mean whether or not we can enter heaven. But the "therefore" clearly connects it to verses 21 and 23.

So, also, the "therefore" in Exodus 20:11 is meaningful, important. It connects the meaning -- God rested on the seventh day and the people should emulate Him in that. That's the intended meaning.

That's why the reprise of Genesis 1 - 2:2 is repeated in verse 11 -- to convict Israelites to actually follow the Sabbath!

Verse 11 is meant to hit them with the powerful message that God Himself took a Sabbath, and therefore they, mere mortal humans, should do so even if they thought to themselves they don't need to do so.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Let's see what we already agree on and consider it more carefully. As you already know and agree I'm sure, often what makes many end up mistaking the meaning of some verse or another in scripture, as we have both seen many times on the internet, is that a person takes a verse away from its context.

Then a verse can seem to be about something else, because often the meaning of a verse relies on the what's being said in full context.

It’s the context that I’ve been repeatedly pointing out in Genesis 1 and Exodus 20:11 supports that same context. “There was evening and morning”. So we can’t dismiss Exodus 20:11 just because it was given in reference to the Sabbath commandment when it supports the context of Genesis 1. The context of Genesis 1 is a six day creation, that’s what the entire chapter is about. Exodus 20:11 supports that same context.

 

[Halbhh]

It’s the context that I’ve been repeatedly pointing out in Genesis 1 and Exodus 20:11 supports that same context. “There was evening and morning”. So we can’t dismiss Exodus 20:11 just because it was given in reference to the Sabbath commandment when it supports the context of Genesis 1. The context of Genesis 1 is a six day creation, that’s what the entire chapter is about. Exodus 20:11 supports that same context.

I don't blame you for not carefully reading my posts, and having a wrong idea what I wrote (for instance, you are repeating to me what I've repeatedly already written above (several times now) -- the days in Genesis 1 were real, 24 hour days, with an evening and a morning -- there were 6 real 24 hour days, as I said several times).

I've done that plenty myself (failing to read someone's post carefully enough to even know what they said!

But if you do choose to read my posts above more carefully, I think you'd get closer to knowing what I was trying to say.

That doesn't mean you have to read my posts!

You can utterly ignore what I write, and I won't be angry or spiteful about that!

But please do try not to respond as if I wrote some other thing than what I wrote. (you would not want someone to do that to you)



I know the posts were sorta long. But it's been years and I've read Genesis 1-4 perhaps 20 or 30 times now, the rest of Genesis 6 times in full, most of the Old Testament books 4 or more times, and all the rest of the Old Testament 3 times fully through, and finally, I do have more than just a few sentences to say about what I've read.