How old is the earth?

[tonychanyt]

A miracle is an act of God, not magic or deception, that benefits us while drawing us closer to himself.

I read that before. It is not an operational definition.

 

[SuperCow]

A miracle is any unlikely event that either provides a great benefit, or prevents or undoes a tragedy or catastrophe for one or more entities regardless of the source.

I think that encompasses the three definitions from the Miriam-Webster dictionary:

1 : An extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
the healing miracles described in the Gospels
2 : An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
The bridge is a miracle of engineering.
3 Christian Science : A divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

It also coincides with the Brittanica definition:

1 : An unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God
a divine miracle
She believed that God had given her the power to work/perform miracles.
a miracle worker [=a person who is able to work/perform miracles]
2 : A very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement
It would take a miracle for this team to win.
The bridge is a miracle of engineering. = The bridge is an engineering miracle.
the miracle of birth

Or Cambridge:

An unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature:
Jesus Christ was said to have performed miracles like turning water into wine.

A very lucky event that is surprising and unexpected :
[ + (that) ] Looking at the state of his car, it's a miracle (that) he wasn't killed!
I can't promise a miracle cure, but I think we can improve things.

An excellent achievement in a particular area of activity :
I considered my recovery to be a miracle of modern medicine.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If I rescue an insect from drowning and put him back on land, that is a miracle for the bug.

That’s not an example of a miracle because it wasn’t an intervention by a deity and it’s not inexplicable by science.

 

[SuperCow]

That’s not an example of a miracle because it wasn’t an intervention by a deity and it’s not inexplicable by science.

Miriam-Webster, Brittanica and Cambridge dictionaries disagree with you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A miracle is any unlikely event that either provides a great benefit, or prevents or undoes a tragedy or catastrophe for one or more entities regardless of the source.

I think that encompasses the three definitions from the Miriam-Webster dictionary:

1 : An extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
the healing miracles described in the Gospels
2 : An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
The bridge is a miracle of engineering.
3 Christian Science : A divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

It also coincides with the Brittanica definition:

1 : An unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God
a divine miracle
She believed that God had given her the power to work/perform miracles.
a miracle worker [=a person who is able to work/perform miracles]
2 : A very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement
It would take a miracle for this team to win.
The bridge is a miracle of engineering. = The bridge is an engineering miracle.
the miracle of birth

Or Cambridge:

An unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature:
Jesus Christ was said to have performed miracles like turning water into wine.

A very lucky event that is surprising and unexpected :
[ + (that) ] Looking at the state of his car, it's a miracle (that) he wasn't killed!
I can't promise a miracle cure, but I think we can improve things.

An excellent achievement in a particular area of activity :
I considered my recovery to be a miracle of modern medicine.

I completely disagree with those definitions because the reason they have those definitions is because people often use the word as an exaggeration. Like it’s a miracle I passed the test or it’s a miracle my wife didn’t burn the steak again. Those aren’t true miracles they’re just using the word as an exaggeration or a figure of speech.

 

[BNR32FAN]

A miracle is any unlikely event that either provides a great benefit, or prevents or undoes a tragedy or catastrophe for one or more entities regardless of the source.

I think that encompasses the three definitions from the Miriam-Webster dictionary:

1 : An extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
the healing miracles described in the Gospels
2 : An extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
The bridge is a miracle of engineering.
3 Christian Science : A divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

It also coincides with the Brittanica definition:

1 : An unusual or wonderful event that is believed to be caused by the power of God
a divine miracle
She believed that God had given her the power to work/perform miracles.
a miracle worker [=a person who is able to work/perform miracles]
2 : A very amazing or unusual event, thing, or achievement
It would take a miracle for this team to win.
The bridge is a miracle of engineering. = The bridge is an engineering miracle.
the miracle of birth

Or Cambridge:

An unusual and mysterious event that is thought to have been caused by a god because it does not follow the usual laws of nature:
Jesus Christ was said to have performed miracles like turning water into wine.

A very lucky event that is surprising and unexpected :
[ + (that) ] Looking at the state of his car, it's a miracle (that) he wasn't killed!
I can't promise a miracle cure, but I think we can improve things.

An excellent achievement in a particular area of activity :
I considered my recovery to be a miracle of modern medicine.

Can you post links to your sources because I’m not seeing that definition from Britanica. All I’m seeing is having to do with religion and deities.

Miracle | Definition, Traditions, & World Religions | Britannica

Miracle, extraordinary and astonishing happening that is attributed to the action of an ultimate or divine power. A miracle is sometimes defined as a supernatural event or is understood as a sign that indicates something beyond itself. Learn more about the significance, interpretation, and...

www.britannica.com

 

[SuperCow]

Can you post links to your spices because I’m not seeing that definition from Britanica. All I’m seeing is having to do with religion and deities.

Miracle | Definition, Traditions, & World Religions | Britannica

Miracle, extraordinary and astonishing happening that is attributed to the action of an ultimate or divine power. A miracle is sometimes defined as a supernatural event or is understood as a sign that indicates something beyond itself. Learn more about the significance, interpretation, and...

www.britannica.com

Definition of MIRACLE

Miracle Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary

miracle

 

[Halbhh]

The results of a miracle, have to obey the laws of physics and space-time.

Not necessarily (and by the scripture we see some clear exceptions). Our own Universe operates naturally by the design of nature that God created, physics. Physics is His creation, as God created everything.

But, we have no reason to think He is constrained or controlled by the physics He created any more than you'd be controlled by a 2x4 piece of lumber you have used, as a carpenter.

As a carpenter you can use lumber, build a house, and then later you could on another day use some other new type of lumber or material unlike the first, and can build something unlike anything you had built previously, at any moment. The lumber and structures you've used and created in the past don't control you in the present. God isn't controlled by this physics He created, and He can do things that don't follow the laws of physics, see.

But, it appears God often has chosen to do miraculous things in many instances that can seem as if it was only a natural event to a skeptical observer that wishes to not believe. That He has many times done miracles that appear as if they are only very lucky natural events to a skeptic doesn't though imply He is limited to doing events that could only happen naturally.

But....on other occasions He seems to have done things that are very unnatural.

Let's look at one of that kind: an unnatural miracle.

A miracle God did that breaks the laws of physics:

12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

Bible Gateway passage: Joshua 10:1-15 - New International Version

The Sun Stands Still - Now Adoni-Zedek king of Jerusalem heard that Joshua had taken Ai and totally destroyed it, doing to Ai and its king as he had done to Jericho and its king, and that the people of Gibeon had made a treaty of peace with Israel and had become their allies. He and his people...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Halbhh]

Some Christians think that the earth is between 6000 to 15,000 years old (coinciding with the Neolithic Age). Astronomers think that it is 4.5 billion years old. Here is an attempt to resolve this incongruity.

Jesus turns water into wine in John 2:

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim. 8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”​

How old is this wine?

If you ask the servants, the human observers/witnesses, they would say a few seconds old.

The story continues:

9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”​

If you ask the expert, the master of the banquet, "How old is this wine?", he would say it was some months or even years old.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the perspective. The supernatural perspective tells us that it was only a second old. The natural perspective tells us that it was at least some months old.

Similarly, in Genesis 1:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. ... 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.​

How old is the earth?

If we ask an astronomer from the natural perspective, he can only study the present-day physical data based on scientific calculation. It is 4.5 billion years old. That's the scientific space-time perspective.

On the other hand, from the supernatural angle, if we read the Bible literally, the present-day earth is only some thousands of years old. That's the biblical witnessed-time perspective.

So which answer is true?

Both are true depending on the time perspective. God created the earth with the embedded evolutionary records of billions of years. The Bible is not a scientific treatise. It focuses on the story of redemption. In terms of witnessed-time history, it is only some thousands of years old. On the other hand, from the scientific-time point of view, the earth is billions of years old.

Why would God deceive people or scientists?

God did not deceive people. The results of a miracle, have to obey the laws of physics and space-time.

Did not God create the universe last Thursday?

No, this is not the same as Last Thursdayism because God tells me the contrary. God did not create the universe last Thursday. Genesis contradicts this. As a witness, I can also contradict this. I was alive last Thursday. God was with me. God dwells in me. It happened in real live-time. I didn't see God create this universe last Thursday. I believe in the words of God, not Last Thursdayism.

Jesus spoke about it as a historical witnessed-time event in Mark 10:

6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’​

From the perspective of scientific time, the details of this embedding are amazing:
24,000-year-old animal found alive, well, and ready to reproduce
Fossils reveal what may be the oldest known case of the dino sniffles.

There are two different frameworks of time. Roughly, witnessed-time started when Adam opened his eyes. Space-time is measured by scientific calculations. Even scientifically, there is something funny about time.

I distinguish between these two concepts of time. The Bible speaks of events that happened in the real historical witnessed-time. Scientific research speaks in terms of space-time even when there were no live animals there to observe the original events.

Another angle (relatively similar to your post actually):

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

In other words, any amount of time is any other amount of time to God.

Why? Because time is merely something God has created (in fact, it's part of this physics...).

Ergo, time cannot control God. (We can also see this from another angle, by observing the clear error in the opposite view: If time could constrain or control God or limit Him, then He isn't able to do "all things".)

 

[tonychanyt]

Not necessarily (and by the scripture we see some clear exceptions).

verse?

 

[oikonomia]

Let's look at one of that kind: an unnatural maricle:

12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

This is a very significant passage. It reveals to what extent God will go when man is in harmony with His will.

It is like the instance when God rained rocks down from heaven upon the enemies of His people. (Joshua 10:11)
Formerly, I was amused at this. It seemed like a humorous matter.

Latter I think I grasped more of its serious significance.
Like Joshua's long day it shows that when God has people on earth one with His will and against His enemies, He will spare nothing
to repond to their petition.

Compare with some of promises of Christ in the NT.

If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you. (John 15:7)

Truly, truly, I say to you, He who believes into Me, the works which I do he shall do also; and greater than these he shall do because I am going to the Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. (John 14:12-14)

This is the big IF. IF His people are utterly one with God.
Such great influence is not for trivial whims.
It is reserved for the fulfillment of the conditon that His people are utterly in harmony with His heart and plan.

 

[Halbhh]

verse?

See the post. The passage quoted with the physics-disobeying miracle is in the last section, but I think the entire post is worth reading, a distillation of years of reading scripture and reflecting.

 

[tonychanyt]

I wrote: The results of a miracle, have to obey the laws of physics and space-time.

You wrote: Not necessarily (and by the scripture we see some clear exceptions).

Can you display the verse and bold the relevant words to support your point? This is a basic scholarship.

 

[Halbhh]

I wrote: The results of a miracle, have to obey the laws of physics and space-time.

You wrote: Not necessarily (and by the scripture we see some clear exceptions).

Can you display the verse and bold the relevant words to support your point? This is a basic scholarship.

The passage you mean. Sure. It's just discussion to me. There are other ways to see it. Best is to talk it out if you like to discuss.

This breaks the laws of physics, such as Conservation of Angular Momentum (of the Earth rotating on its axis), and of course also the Conservation of Momentum of objects (like people and other things) on the Earth's surface as its rotation stopped -- about 900 miles per hour at the latitude of Israel. (fyi, I have a degree in Engineering Physics, so this is very simple stuff for me, and ask if you need more explanation of anything)

12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

-- Joshua 10

 

[notworthconsideration]

He could create light that appears to have been traveling through space for billions of years as a record of things that never happened

I’m studied speed of light for years… the current speed was assigned because of measurable fluctuations even in a vacuum. (1969)

SOL has been measured for hundreds of years. The data strongly suggests that light was significantly faster.

If scientists use today’s SOL factor to measure light speed from 200 years ago, they could “scientifically” conclude the earth is 100s of thousand to millions of years old. The reason is that light can be slowed when passing through different substances.With the expansion of the universe, there is ‘waste’ energy from the expansion. The more the expansion, the more this particular waste. It doesn’t occur on the refractive index for light, because if it did, people would know that our means of measuring the age of the universe is inherently flawed.
Scientists know of this waste, but cannot/will not make the connection with its effect on SOL.

According to the most trusted astronomical math, the farthest parts of the universe are exceeding the SOL. That’s impossible, but scientists would rather believe something is/was faster that SOL than to admit SOL has been slowed to a fraction of its original speed, giving a sense of age that is defined only by our understanding of science… which is flawed by an “assigned” SOL that is thought to be a constant.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Definition of MIRACLE

Miracle Definition & Meaning | Britannica Dictionary

miracle

The example sentences like I said seem to be an exaggeration usage of the word, not an actual miracle.

 

[tonychanyt]

The passage you mean. Sure. It's just discussion to me. There are other ways to see it. Best is to talk it out if you like to discuss.

This breaks the laws of physics, such as Conservation of Angular Momentum (of the Earth rotating on its axis), and of course also the Conservation of Momentum of objects (like people and other things) on the Earth's surface as its rotation stopped -- about 900 miles per hour at the latitude of Israel. (fyi, I have a degree in Engineering Physics, so this is very simple stuff for me, and ask if you need more explanation of anything)

12 On the day the Lord gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the Lord in the presence of Israel:

“Sun, stand still over Gibeon,
and you, moon, over the Valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still,
and the moon stopped,
till the nation avenged itself on[b] its enemies,
as it is written in the Book of Jashar.

The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the Lord listened to a human being. Surely the Lord was fighting for Israel!

-- Joshua 10

That's an interesting possible exception. Do you have another one?

 

[Halbhh]

I’m studied speed of light for years… the current speed was assigned because of measurable fluctuations even in a vacuum. (1969)

SOL has been measured for hundreds of years. The data strongly suggests that light was significantly faster.

If scientists use today’s SOL factor to measure light speed from 200 years ago, they could “scientifically” conclude the earth is 100s of thousand to millions of years old. The reason is that light can be slowed when passing through different substances.With the expansion of the universe, there is ‘waste’ energy from the expansion. The more the expansion, the more this particular waste. It doesn’t occur on the refractive index for light, because if it did, people would know that our means of measuring the age of the universe is inherently flawed.
Scientists know of this waste, but cannot/will not make the connection with its effect on SOL.

According to the most trusted astronomical math, the farthest parts of the universe are exceeding the SOL. That’s impossible, but scientists would rather believe something is/was faster that SOL than to admit SOL has been slowed to a fraction of its original speed, giving a sense of age that is defined only by our understanding of science… which is flawed by an “assigned” SOL that is thought to be a constant.

Hi, I'm a believer, and it's good to understand that God isn't limited by physics. Instead, physics is His creation. He made it. For God to be limited by the laws of physics would be like a carpenter being limited by a yellow pine 2x4 piece of lumber, as if unable to cut a different size or type of wood.

So, He didn't need the speed of light to change. Time itself is under His control. Not the other way around!

So, we read in 2nd Peter:

"But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

In other words, any amount of time is equal to any other amount of time, to God. A billion years are like an hour to Him, or even as if only an second....

 

[Halbhh]

That's an interesting possible exception. Do you have another one?

Here's another:

1 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what the Lord says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.”

2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the Lord, 3 “Remember, Lord, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.

4 Then the word of the Lord came to Isaiah: 5 “Go and tell Hezekiah, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life. 6And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city.

7“ ‘This is the Lord’s sign to you that the Lord will do what he has promised: 8 I will make the shadow cast by the sun go back the ten steps it has gone down on the stairway of Ahaz.’ ” So the sunlight went back the ten steps it had gone down.

-- Isaiah 38

More?

(you already know more more though really....the dead don't come back to life after 4 days in the grave, like Lazarus; Leprosy isn't healed in an instant in any natural recovery, and so there are very many miracles that cannot be taken to be just like really rare/unlikely natural events. In summary, while some miracles are similar to just very unlikely natural events, some others are not at all naturally even possible, but break the laws of physics)

 

[BNR32FAN]

The notion that God created a narrative in the sky and in the earth that states the earth is 4.5 billion years old and the universe 14.5 billion years old has problems. These fossil records and stories in the skies would essentially be lies. He created a (fictional) story that is not true. Of course He could do this. He could create light that appears to have been traveling through space for billions of years as a record of things that never happened. We see a super nova recorded in the star light that never actually happened. And He could create a fossil record and a geologic record that makes the earth appear to be billions of years old. But why deceive us? The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth forth his handywork. What you are seeing in the sky and in the earth are the result of His hands. Are they lies? Are they a fictional record of things that never really happened?

The universe can be created inherently deceptive without God being a liar because He specifically told us how long it took Him to create them and how long ago He created them. He is not obligated to create the universe in any particular fashion. The reason why the universe appears to be deceptive could be because of the same reason that Jesus spoke in parables.

“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭13‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Jesus didn’t try to convince people who were not interested in listening to Him, instead He spoke in parables so that they would not understand and only those who were interested in listening to Him would understand. I think the appearance of the age of the universe was purposely created in such a way that those who seek to deny Him will have evidence against Him. It’s apparent to me that God doesn’t want irrefutable proof of His existence during this age. Those who want to know Him, He will reveal Himself to them and those who want to reject Him, He will not reveal Himself to them.