How much prayer is required

[Brieuse]

Then you do not mind if I hold you and the rest of the homosexual community responsible for the AIDS crises ?

You can, but then it would be misdirected, seeing as it's the fault of non-safe sex, not homosexuals. Whereas many teenagers are committing suicide because they have families with an attitude like yours.

 

[Floatingaxe]

tried that. Any other ideas?

Yes.

If you are serious and have followed through with those things, then you most definitely need your pastors to lay hands on you in prayer, anoint you with oil, because you may need deliverance of a stubborn demonic spirit.

If you are serious, I will intercede for you.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Yes.

If you are serious and have followed through with those things, then you most definitely need your pastors to lay hands on you in prayer, anoint you with oil, because you may need deliverance of a stubborn demonic spirit.

If you are serious, I will intercede for you.

Thats an original idea. it is not like 50 million young Gay's have not gone that route. I have heard of young gay's and exorcism. The usual outcome, is that they are still Gay and quite T'd off at the church.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Thats an original idea. it is not like 50 million young Gay's have not gone that route. I have heard of young gay's and exorcism. The usual outcome, is that they are still Gay and quite T'd off at the church.

It's not usual, but that's what you have heard.

 

[walloffire]

You asked, how much to pray to be "cured" of homosexuality....

(Proverbs 28:9) He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

The law is explicit in saying that sex is to be between a female wife and her male husband. Jesus reinforces this in the book of Matthew when he is speaking to the Pharisees about divorce.

If you will not hear the law, which states that ANY sex outside of marriage is sin, including heterosexual sex outside of marriage, or adultery, if you will not hear that law, then even your prayer will be abomination. That's what the Bible says.

So, 1) hear the law. 2) repent. 3) THEN your prayer will be heard.

And before you "declare" what I'm saying an interpretation, consider this:
Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

There is no such thing as interpretation, only belief or unbelief in the words which are spoken/read/heard.

So, to answer your question, it doesn't matter how long you pray, since you will not hear and obey the law which God delivered from the flaming mountain through Moses.

Exo 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Exo 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
Exo 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Exo 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.

The law was delivered with plenty of witness that it was from the Lord God, the creator. Hear the law, and repent. Then your prayer will no longer be an abomination.


(Proverbs 28:9) He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

 

[walloffire]

It's wrong to compare being gay, which is positive and entirely benign, with being a child molester or a murderer or an adulterer. Gay people do not harm anyone. Molesting a child does harm to a child. Murder does obvious harm. Adultery does harm to the deceived spouse and probably to the whole family. I would never say that I am born gay to apologize for it. It's not an affliction or a disease or a negative condition. It's just a characteristic, like being left-handed.

It makes no sense anyway to say that a murderer is born to murder, or that a rapist is born to rape, or an adulterer is born to commit adultery. It may be true that some people are predisposed to desire sex with children. This is a serious problem, and right now we have no solution for this problem. It's a problem because a sexual attraction for children is not a benign or positive characteristic; it's a characteristic that tends to lead people to harm children. And it appears that therapy does not change this. Some may argue that giving oneself to Jesus can or will change this, but I have seen no evidence of that. The approach we have settled on, for now, is to convict people of molesting children and send them to jail, and then put their names on a list and bar them from living near or going near children. But this is not an effective solution, and it also appears to deny people basic civil liberties after they have already paid their dues for commiting a crime.

A predisposition toward child molestation may be inborn, and there is no good solution to the problem at this point. The difference between this and being gay is that child molestation does harm; having a same-sex relationship with a consenting adult does no harm. Child molestation is a crime; having a same-sex relationship with a consenting adult is not a crime; it's protected under the right to privacy. Being gay is a positive and benign characteristic; having a sexual attraction to children is likely to lead to harm to children. Being gay is not a social problem, or any kind of problem, unless a gay person thinks it is a problem for him or her. Being born with an attraction for children is a social and an individual problem, because it is likely to lead to harm and to criminal activity.

Being gay is not benign. It causes you to be barren, unable to reproduce, since man cannot lay with man and produce a child, nor woman with woman. Being gay is not benign. Science says that mankind and even animals have 2 needs they fulfill: 1) SURVIVE 2) REPRODUCE. Being gay short-circuits the latter one, and loose homosexual sex with many partners can often cut off the 1st one as well via aids etc.

 

[OllieFranz]

You asked, how much to pray to be "cured" of homosexuality....

(Proverbs 28:9) He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

The law is explicit in saying that sex is to be between a female wife and her male husband. Jesus reinforces this in the book of Matthew when he is speaking to the Pharisees about divorce.

If you will not hear the law, which states that ANY sex outside of marriage is sin, including heterosexual sex outside of marriage, or adultery, if you will not hear that law, then even your prayer will be abomination. That's what the Bible says.

So, 1) hear the law. 2) repent. 3) THEN your prayer will be heard.

At the time the OP was spending his 20 years of prayer for deliverence, he belived like you that the Law declared homosexuality sin. He repented of this "sin." He would not have been praying so fervently for so long if he did not.

However, the law is not explicit about same-sex relationships. There is a law, stated twice in Leviticus, stating that for purity reasons (the same purity reasons for the kosher dietary rules, and the ban on fabric blends; the same purity reasons as the Sabbath laws), Jewish males should not perform as the "active" partner in one specfic sexual act. But when the purity laws were fulfilled in Christ, they were no longer required of those He redeemed.

Immediately after the discussion with the Pharisees about divorce, Jesus speaks to His disciples about the possibility of living a life of holy celibacy, comparing those that choose to do so to eunuchs and to gays, whom he says were born that way "from their mother's womb."

Yes any sex outside marriage is sin. That is why it is also a sin to deny marriage to gays.

And before you "declare" what I'm saying an interpretation, consider this:
Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

There is no such thing as interpretation, only belief or unbelief in the words which are spoken/read/heard.

If you mean the original words in the original languages, as understood by the originally intended readers, I agree completely. But what we have are translations, which do not always agree on the best way to express the original idea in English (or other modern languages), words that have become obscure in meaning, or whose meaning has been lost, and a cultural divide that must be bridged.

So, to answer your question, it doesn't matter how long you pray, since you will not hear and obey the law which God delivered from the flaming mountain through Moses.

Again at the time he spent the 20 years in prayer and agony, he believed that the law forbade his feelings and he was vexed of them and repentive. It is simply not true that he would not hear and obey." If he were in wilful defiance, he would not have felt the need to pray for deliverence.

Exo 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Exo 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
Exo 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
Exo 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by a voice.

The law was delivered with plenty of witness that it was from the Lord God, the creator. Hear the law, and repent. Then your prayer will no longer be an abomination.


(Proverbs 28:9) He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

 

[Brieuse]

Again at the time he spent the 20 years in prayer and agony, he believed that the law forbade his feelings and he was vexed of them and repentive. It is simply not true that he would not hear and obey." If he were in wilful defiance, he would not have felt the need to pray for deliverence.

exactly, thank you Ollie. It was something I prayed very ernestly about. Repenting very often, remaining celibate.

My prayers were not answered because God did not see the need.

 

[Brieuse]

Yes.

If you are serious and have followed through with those things, then you most definitely need your pastors to lay hands on you in prayer, anoint you with oil, because you may need deliverance of a stubborn demonic spirit.

If you are serious, I will intercede for you.

tried that, quite a few times.

Anything else to suggest?

 

[walloffire]

so, Brieuse, does your argument still hold any water if you were, say, a serial killer talking about repenting of murder (over a 20y span)? both are sins.

should i believe you when you say, "God didn't feel the need" to (i guess) make you better appreciate the opposite sex? what if the issue were serial murder? should i feel sorry for you that God has theoretically not answered your prayer to stop killing?

i treat both sins the same way. if you were a serial murderer, i'd say STOP IT, same goes with homosexuality. Just--- don't do it.

 

[Brieuse]

so, Brieuse, does your argument still hold any water if you were, say, a serial killer talking about repenting of murder (over a 20y span)? both are sins.

should i believe you when you say, "God didn't feel the need" to (i guess) make you better appreciate the opposite sex? what if the issue were serial murder? should i feel sorry for you that God has theoretically not answered your prayer to stop killing?

i treat both sins the same way. if you were a serial murderer, i'd say STOP IT, same goes with homosexuality. Just--- don't do it.

how do you compare the two? God has shown me the truth in His Word.

 

[Ohioprof]

Being gay is not benign. It causes you to be barren, unable to reproduce, since man cannot lay with man and produce a child, nor woman with woman. Being gay is not benign. Science says that mankind and even animals have 2 needs they fulfill: 1) SURVIVE 2) REPRODUCE. Being gay short-circuits the latter one, and loose homosexual sex with many partners can often cut off the 1st one as well via aids etc.

Gay people reproduce all the time. Being gay does not destroy our reproductive systems. Many lesbians bear children, and many gay men father children biologically.

 

[lincolngreen50]

Gay people reproduce all the time. Being gay does not destroy our reproductive systems. Many lesbians bear children, and many gay men father children biologically.

Out of wedlock which is a sin

 

[UberLutheran]

Sometimes, God gives us really strange gifts.

Most of us are used to gifts which come in pretty packages, or small packages with gold or diamond jewelry; and when we think of God giving gifts, we think of people with prodigious artistic, musical, literary, scientific or mathematical talents — and sometimes God gives gifts which don't look like ANY of these.

I believe homosexuality is one of those gifts.

It certainly would have been easier for me if I had not been gay — all the more so since I live in Texas — but by being gay and not fitting in with heterosexual society, and being on the receiving end of a lot of abuse from the "love the sinner and hate the sin" crowd has taught me compassion for "the least of these" that I probably wouldn't have had were I straight.

I see too many Christians — particularly conservative Christians — dismissing the poor as somehow "deserving" to be poor, or people with AIDS or asbestos-acquired mesothelioma somehow "deserving" their illnesses, and the homeless "deserving" to be homeless, those who are working in dead-end, underpaid jobs with no health insurance as "deserving" what they have, and women who have left abusive husbands in destructive marriages "deserving" their abuse because they weren't "submissive" enough to their husbands (and therefore their abuse is of the woman's doing) — and being on the receiving end of "love the sinner and hate the sin" which includes some very odd demonstrations of "love" (including shunning) makes me really empathetic to "the least of these".

The anger I've felt at being on the receiving end of some pretty malicious "Christian love", combined with my own natural energy has worked to help me to work at doing something concrete for the homeless, the sick, the uninsured, battered women, single women with children, etc. and that includes occasionally calling conservative Christians on their hypocrisy and their un-Christlike attitudes (sometimes in very public places).

I take what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 very seriously; and I take what Jesus said AND DID in Luke/Acts every bit as seriously. He was certainly no friend of the conservative religious establishment of His time and didn't hesitate to make the conservative religious people of His time very uncomfortable if it was necessary — especially when they were using very legalistic interpretations of The Law to justify their inhumanity and their lack of concern for those who were poor and/or suffering (just like today).

I consider it a badge of honor when conservative Christians berate me for being gay, or taking up the cause of the powerless and the marginalized; and especially when conservative Christians huff at me, turn up their nose and call me a "liberal" or a "socialist" — and their condemnations are music to my ears!

I'd rather be a liberal or a socialist for Christ than a comfortable conservative Christian who already has received their blessings and rewards on this earth, and is likely to end up with very little in Heaven. The rich merchant kicked around Lazarus all throughout Lazarus' miserable life, and expected Lazarus to continue to serve him when the rich man was in Hell and Lazarus was in Heaven — and the rich merchant found out very quickly how divine justice works!

 

[Ohioprof]

Out of wedlock which is a sin

Not in the places where we are legally allowed to marry. In Massachusetts gay people can and do marry.

Folks really can't justify having it both ways. They can't say that our relationships are sinful because they are out of wedlock and then say that we should not be allowed to marry.

 

[Ohioprof]

Sometimes, God gives us really strange gifts.

Most of us are used to gifts which come in pretty packages, or small packages with gold or diamond jewelry; and when we think of God giving gifts, we think of people with prodigious artistic, musical, literary, scientific or mathematical talents — and sometimes God gives gifts which don't look like ANY of these.

I believe homosexuality is one of those gifts.

It certainly would have been easier for me if I had not been gay — all the more so since I live in Texas — but by being gay and not fitting in with heterosexual society, and being on the receiving end of a lot of abuse from the "love the sinner and hate the sin" crowd has taught me compassion for "the least of these" that I probably wouldn't have had were I straight.

I see too many Christians — particularly conservative Christians — dismissing the poor as somehow "deserving" to be poor, or people with AIDS or asbestos-acquired mesothelioma somehow "deserving" their illnesses, and the homeless "deserving" to be homeless, those who are working in dead-end, underpaid jobs with no health insurance as "deserving" what they have, and women who have left abusive husbands in destructive marriages "deserving" their abuse because they weren't "submissive" enough to their husbands (and therefore their abuse is of the woman's doing) — and being on the receiving end of "love the sinner and hate the sin" which includes some very odd demonstrations of "love" (including shunning) makes me really empathetic to "the least of these".

The anger I've felt at being on the receiving end of some pretty malicious "Christian love", combined with my own natural energy has worked to help me to work at doing something concrete for the homeless, the sick, the uninsured, battered women, single women with children, etc. and that includes occasionally calling conservative Christians on their hypocrisy and their un-Christlike attitudes (sometimes in very public places).

I take what Jesus said in Matthew 25:31-46 very seriously; and I take what Jesus said AND DID in Luke/Acts every bit as seriously. He was certainly no friend of the conservative religious establishment of His time and didn't hesitate to make the conservative religious people of His time very uncomfortable if it was necessary — especially when they were using very legalistic interpretations of The Law to justify their inhumanity and their lack of concern for those who were poor and/or suffering (just like today).

I consider it a badge of honor when conservative Christians berate me for being gay, or taking up the cause of the powerless and the marginalized; and especially when conservative Christians huff at me, turn up their nose and call me a "liberal" or a "socialist" — and their condemnations are music to my ears!

I'd rather be a liberal or a socialist for Christ than a comfortable conservative Christian who already has received their blessings and rewards on this earth, and is likely to end up with very little in Heaven. The rich merchant kicked around Lazarus all throughout Lazarus' miserable life, and expected Lazarus to continue to serve him when the rich man was in Hell and Lazarus was in Heaven — and the rich merchant found out very quickly how divine justice works!

Great post, Uber. And I am so glad to see you back posting. I hope you are feeling much better and that you had a wonderful Thanksgiving. I am thankful that you are in the world. You are a gift to all of us.

 

[lincolngreen50]

Not in the places where we are legally allowed to marry. In Massachusetts gay people can and do marry.

Folks really can't justify having it both ways. They can't say that our relationships are sinful because they are out of wedlock and then say that we should not be allowed to marry.

You misunderstood,Having a Child out of wedlock is sin
Adultery.artificial insemination by a third party,all Biblical sin.

 

[OllieFranz]

You misunderstood,Having a Child out of wedlock is sin
Adultery.artificial insemination by a third party,all Biblical sin.

Artificial insemination can be done using the husban's sperm. Sometime it just takes a concentration greater that the husband can produce in one session. Is this also sin?

And if a woman who was raped has a child out of wedlock is she commiting a sin?

 

[Ohioprof]

You misunderstood,Having a Child out of wedlock is sin
Adultery.artificial insemination by a third party,all Biblical sin.

The Bible condemns artificial insemination? Now there's a weird notion.

How about egg donation.....does the Bible condemn that also?

 

[Ohioprof]

Btw, many gay people have children biologically in heterosexual marriages before they come out as gay. But I suppose someone will call that a sin also, because the heterosexual couple got divorced. I do notice that Christians in these forums are a lot more accepting of divorce than they are of gay relationships, even though Jesus actually did decry divorce, at least according to the canonical Gospels.