How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

squint · Sep 20, 2009

Notrash said:
Your statements are from your misdefinition and misapplication of the words of the text.

Uh, no, they are not. Your case COULD be made IF DEVILS were not with/within mankind. I don't think the case that they are NOT with/within mankind can be made in the light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You have not weighed in on this matter of the devils existence or location after several specific question attempts.

And again, since we are primarily dealing with Matt 24 and the changeover of the covenant age; In Matt 24 the word used for generation is not referring to the Genos or Gennema of Vipers weather or not that genos continues through to today.

That is again your own imposed funnel. I stated to Doc a post or so up and will state to you, Matt. 24 talks about DECEPTION. Is the DEVIL NOT INVOLVED in deception? lol with denial of that working of devils...IN mankind.

I'm not at all saying that there are not a genos of people inspired by their jealousy of God and his creation....or self-will.... or being misled by lies or whatever... neither am I saying that there is a specific group of devils living inside men. (again, Mark Eastman and Chuck Missler hold those concepts)

Well, you would not be the first observer to overlook the facts of the other parties involved. That to me will remain a very blinded view NOT CONTAINING open facts and therefore a 'logical fallacy' by NOT containing very important potential components.

So again, you should if you wanted to be simply polite, come to terms with that side of the equation as to the devils existence WITH/WITHIN mankind. And you know as soon as you do or do not you WILL have to then either remedy HOW they may (or may not) be addressed in Matt. 24.

If you weigh in on the non-existent side, then you are rightfully posting in the unorthodox theology category.

Neither am I saying that their may not be a repeated principle of wrath poured out on babylonic counterfeit religions at a future time; or rather that perhaps 'wrath' is simply a confusion and unfruitfulness/disharmony of life in those individuals and association of groups who are not given the spirit of life and truth.

None of which have addressed the basic premise of THEM. You seem to be able however to postulate many angles BUT...them.

What I am saying (again) is that Matt 24 doesn't address that issue but rather talks about things that were to occur in the very lifespan (GENEA)of people to whom he was speaking and the evidence is that all those things including the end of the age (not World) and the end of the old covenant Jewish nation did occur to the very GENEA (lifespan)they were spoken to.

ONLY if you disconnect DECEPTION from DEVILS. Jesus preambles Matt. 24 via the workings of DECEPTION and delineates that working repeatedly in Matt. 24. The very fulcrum of Matt. 24 is the final elimination of THAT working. So it might again appear that the parties involved with 'deception' may play a rather significant role in understanding just who is going to find their ENDING...can you spell the DECEIVERS?

Your attempt to make Matt 24 apply to a future wrath on a generation (genos) of devils changes the very words of the greek text and to put it gently stands condemned for that very attempt.

I clipped a large part of your various speculations to see if you can answer the devil questions.

Also, I do not defer wrath of any sort at any time. We know that wrath was upon the earth in near continuity from the beginning in various ways. There is in Matt. 24 a FINAL WRATH, which that scripture set deals with all the way through Matt. 25 where the DEVIL and his messengers are AGAIN specified. The 'generation' of VIPERS was addressed also in the Matt. 23 forefront.

IF you insist that the VIPERS were only the Jewish Pharisees, then you will have to confront another problem with that view, as ALL OF ISRAEL were taught by God to be GODS CHILDREN in the O.T. (Deut. 14;1/Psalm 82:6) God did assuredly did NOT spawn VIPERS as HIS CHILDREN...or if so then you will have to make GOD the FATHER of VIPERS...and instant connection to GOD Himself which most sane theological observers will not find any sort of credible.

I think the point that your missing is that the old covenant was the conditional/national covenent given to national Israel.

Uh, NO...that is entirely not true whatsoever and easily DISproven...

Jesus openly stated that MAN (not just Israel) shall live BY EVERY WORD of God...not just the N.T. Words.

Paul himself stated that ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God and useful for multiple applications. So the notion of O.T. Words of God ONLY being for 'national Israel' does not hold ANY water. It's a false construct.

And you are welcome to DODGE THE DEVIL questions all the live long day ...which practice I detest as disingenuous, dishonest and non-existing attempts in the exchange of information in these matters.

enjoy!

squint

Notrash · Sep 20, 2009

squint said:
squint said:

Uh, no, they are not. Your case COULD be made IF DEVILS were not with/within mankind. I don't think the case that they are NOT with/within mankind can be made in the light of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. You have not weighed in on this matter of the devils existence or location after several specific question attempts.

I clipped a large part of your various speculations to see if you can answer the devil questions.

Also, I do not defer wrath of any sort at any time. We know that wrath was upon the earth in near continuity from the beginning in various ways. There is in Matt. 24 a FINAL WRATH, which that scripture set deals with all the way through Matt. 25 where the DEVIL and his messengers are AGAIN specified. The 'generation' of VIPERS was addressed also in the Matt. 23 forefront.

Click to expand...

Matt 23 has 2 words translated 'generation': gennema in verse 33 and Genea in vs 37. They are not identical. Gennema is the fruit and result of the Vipers injection of unbelief, self will and other nasty stuff. The referal to them as serpents was part of the prophecy of Duet 32 and the result of the end of the old covenant. The Genea in vs 36 is the lifespan of those people who were living in that age. And the wrath and the WOES of all these things were poured out on the Pharisses as it was stated in that generation. In never states that the gennema ends but that the blood of the prophets would be required of that lifespan.... for someone greater than the prophets was there and they would also disbelieve him and cut him off.. and as prophesied about Christ in Duet 17... whosoever shall not hear that prophet shall be cut off from among the people.... and they were and still are...

IF you insist that the VIPERS were only the Jewish Pharisees, then you will have to confront another problem with that view, as ALL OF ISRAEL were taught by God to be GODS CHILDREN in the O.T. (Deut. 14;1/Psalm 82:6) God did assuredly did NOT spawn VIPERS as HIS CHILDREN...or if so then you will have to make GOD the FATHER of VIPERS...and instant connection to GOD Himself which most sane theological observers will not find any sort of credible.

Click to expand...

I'll not address the various issurs or statements that you raise and the questions they must raise in your own mind. They are becoming more and more bizarre and humorous (to use your words) National Israel had been sown with the seed of men and of beast according to Jeremiah 31 through the disbelief and their seeking a worldly kingdom through misinterpretation of the talmud and their denial of the Messiah.

NO, to answer your question Matt 24 is not about a future end of the gennema or genos of viper men nor the end of that spirit. It is about the then yet coming end and judgement upon the conditional old covenant age and the wrath poured out upon those who sought to perpetuate the old covenant and it's nation beyond Gods purpose for it. And it is primarily about things that some of disciples who remained through the war with the beast would see in their lifespan.

The world of individuals has been judged forever in righteousness. On which side of that judgement does one stand. Do they individually humbly stand in mercy and the uncondional acceptance and approval through forgiveness and justification of God through faith which itself is not of oneself;just as the disciples did and escaped the wrath poured out on babylon...(judaism in Jerusalem). or does one stand in the conditional performance based self approval which has been shown to be unobtainable even via the example of the old covenant. Or do they stand in one of the counterfeit self willed babylonian style religions like judaism had become... (Deut 32:15-18)

If you wish to discuss the difference of Genos, Genea, Gennema etc... or Aeon vs Kosmos, so that we can consider the truth vs error of where we differ we can continue.

Otherwise this seems to be a continual difference centered around the word Genea.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 20, 2009

If you wish to discuss the difference of Genos, Genea, Gennema etc... or Aeon vs Kosmos, so that we can consider the truth vs error of where we differ we can continue.

Otherwise this seems to be a continual difference centered around the word Genea.

Wasn't there a thread somewhere on that?
I would rather there be no long debating on this thread, as I created it mainly as a "fact finding" one for me. Thanks

Notrash · Sep 20, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
Wasn't there a thread somewhere on that?
I would rather there be no long debating on this thread, as I created it mainly as a "fact finding" one for me. Thanks

Yes, there was and is over in GT a thread on the topic of 'this generation'. Much or some of this was covered there although not in as emphatic a postion.

The discussion of Genea is right on target of the one of the facts deciding if Matt 24 is all or partly fulfilled.

I believe it's been well state enough though. And I've tried to limit the focus of the discussion to this issue..... several times.

Genea translated as referring to the lifespan of those hearing Christs words partly supports that Matt 24 was all fulfilled.

We'll (I'll) not continue any further discussion on the matter or of 'devil men' in the thread. Thanks for the help in ending it.

Perhaps squint can start a new thread on Matt 24 and the end of devils from his perspective.

I note the verse in Hebrews that you posted.

squint · Sep 20, 2009

Notrash said:
Matt 23 has 2 words translated 'generation': gennema in verse 33 and Genea in vs 37. They are not identical. Gennema is the fruit and result of the Vipers injection of unbelief,

Click to expand...

Were those Jews Gods children? How then could THEY be also VIPERS? Did God bear VIPERS?

Isn't the observation brought into play on these matters that we could be dealing with MULTIPLE entity classes here? i.e. DEVILS and MANKIND?

And the instant you acknowledge the FACT that DEVILS/VIPERS were 'with those men' or in ANY of mankind, your 'generation' construct without factoring the reality of the OTHER ENTITIES falls completely apart...

There are a veritable HORDE of scriptures that depict HOW DEVILS entered those people.

Here are some more for starters showing that THE DEVIL, an ENTIRELY SEPARATE ENTITY (that you probably don't even acknowledge as a reality) does ENTER people where THE WORD was/is sown/heard...i.e. PRIMARILY IN THE TEMPLE PHARISEES:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

enjoy!

s

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 20, 2009

squint said:
Notrash said:

Were those Jews Gods children? How then could THEY be also VIPERS? Did God bear VIPERS?

enjoy!

s

Click to expand...

Those were the Rulers/Priests of the Jews

Matthew 8:12 The yet Sons of the Kingdom shall be being Cast-out/ek-blhqhsontai <1544> (5701) into the darkness, the Outer/exwteron <1857>. There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

John 8:44 :Ye out of a father the Devil are and the desires of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

JediMobius · Sep 20, 2009

squint said:
Were those Jews Gods children? How then could THEY be also VIPERS? Did God bear VIPERS?

[Jesus speaking to his disciples, prompted by the faith of the Centurion]

Mat 8:11 "And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

[Jesus speaking to a group of Jews who did not believe in him]

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

It isn't safe to assume that all the Jews were children of God. Many (dare I say most) denied their inheritance, and for their unbelief and wickedness, God could be said to have disowned any of his children who were faithless, then adopted from among the gentiles believers to take their place. Clearly, if Jesus tells these Jews that they are children of the Devil, they cannot also be children of God. So when (in Mat 23) he calls the pharisees a brood of Vipers, he is calling them children of the Serpent, the Devil; they are not children of God, and they will not escape judgment for all their false piety, regardless that they descended from Abraham.

Edit: Hey look at that! LLoJ and I thought of the same verses!

squint · Sep 20, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
squint said:

Those were the Rulers/Priests of the Jews

Matthew 8:12 The yet Sons of the Kingdom shall be being Cast-out/ek-blhqhsontai <1544> (5701) into the darkness, the Outer/exwteron <1857>. There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.

John 8:44 :Ye out of a father the Devil are and the desires of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the Fruits of it.

Click to expand...

I see. So the devil was implicated in their 'sins?'

Don't make me do the drill wit ya...

you know that only a person in truth can stand up to the fact that a liar is present with them...Kinda strange how God set that deal up eh? That to prove dwelling in Truth you actually have to confess that fact? And the fact that it is a fact nearly NONE can state it because A LIAR can't state that fact....CAUSE IT'S THE TRUTH...

That's partly why I LOVE scripture...it's such a good set up...

woo woo land for SURE...

squint · Sep 20, 2009

TheLowlyTortoise said:
squint said:

[Jesus speaking to his disciples, prompted by the faith of the Centurion]

Mat 8:11 "And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 "But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

[Jesus speaking to a group of Jews who did not believe in him]

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

It isn't safe to assume that all the Jews were children of God. Many (dare I say most) denied their inheritance, and for their unbelief and wickedness, God could be said to have disowned any of his children who were faithless, then adopted from among the gentiles believers to take their place. Clearly, if Jesus tells these Jews that they are children of the Devil, they cannot also be children of God. So when (in Mat 23) he calls the pharisees a brood of Vipers, he is calling them children of the Serpent, the Devil; they are not children of God, and they will not escape judgment for all their false piety, regardless that they descended from Abraham.

Edit: Hey look at that! LLoJ and I thought of the same verses!

Click to expand...

Your conclusion IS that God burns His Own children alive in fire forever as a bottom line reality in any case...regardless of 'how' that bottom line is derived. And of course you and lloj and everyone else on the planet has the same 'sin' problem, but yours is somehow contrived to be off the hook...HEY! Doesn't that sound just a tad bit like a PHARISEE statement?

Luke 10:29
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

JediMobius · Sep 21, 2009

squint said:
Your conclusion IS that God burns His Own children alive in fire forever as a bottom line reality in any case...regardless of 'how' that bottom line is derived. And of course you and lloj and everyone else on the planet has the same 'sin' problem, but yours is somehow contrived to be off the hook...HEY! Doesn't that sound just a tad bit like a PHARISEE statement?

Luke 10:29
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

What are you talking about? Speak plainly. I haven't mentioned any 'sin' problem.

Are you concerned with the truth, or only with being right? The Holy Spirit is with me in my discernment of the passages I quoted. Baseless assertions, generalizations, and an attack on my character by comparing me to a pharisee won't prove your position right.

The words of Jesus which LLoJ and I quoted seem rather clear. Unless you can show a different meaning through careful exegesis, you have to accept the truth.

Mat 12:47 Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You." 48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?" 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, "Here are My mother and My brothers! 50 "For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother."

squint · Sep 21, 2009

TheLowlyTortoise said:
What are you talking about? Speak plainly. I haven't mentioned any 'sin' problem.

Don't know what your talking about. Please be more specific.

Are you concerned with the truth, or only with being right?

"have you stopped beating your wife" statement there. Sorry.

The Holy Spirit is with me in my discernment of the passages I quoted. Baseless assertions, generalizations, and an attack on my character by comparing me to a pharisee won't prove your position right.

If you bothered to read any of my posts you'd know I blame NONE of mankind or the PHARISEES as children of Israel for any SINS.

The words of Jesus which LLoJ and I quoted seem rather clear. Unless you can show a different meaning through careful exegesis, you have to accept the truth.

What truth might that be again? I am certainly and well familiar with the practice of self justification and open condemnation of other people. Fairly common practice within Christianity AND within the Pharisees.

s

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 21, 2009

squint said:
LittleLambofJesus said:

I see. So the devil was implicated in their 'sins?'

Don't make me do the drill wit ya...

you know that only a person in truth can stand up to the fact that a liar is present with them...Kinda strange how God set that deal up eh? That to prove dwelling in Truth you actually have to confess that fact? And the fact that it is a fact nearly NONE can state it because A LIAR can't state that fact....CAUSE IT'S THE TRUTH...

That's partly why I LOVE scripture...it's such a good set up...

woo woo land for SURE...

Click to expand...

So do us Preterists, which the Jews and Muslims would be if they really studied the Scriptures like we do ehehe

Luke 19:41 And as He nears being aware the City He laments upon Her
44 and they shall be leveling thee and the offspring of thee in thee and not they shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee stead which not thou knew the time of the visitation of thee.

Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "she falls she falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations. [Jeremiah 51:8]

DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City - Page 2 - Christian Forums
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

KCDAD · Sep 21, 2009

"reality of devils"

Is there some question about this? Or have missed the latest edition of National Enquirer?

KCDAD · Sep 21, 2009

"the author is Jesus."

Jesus never WROTE anything except some scribbles in the dirt for all we know.

The author was a follow of The Way, who came from one the churches that Matthew taught in. (Or maybe Matthew himself... who knows?)

KCDAD · Sep 21, 2009

thecountrydoc said:
May God put His loving arms around each of you, His Holy Angels protect you, and the Holy Spirit guide

Are you being redundant for effect?

squint · Sep 21, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
squint said:

So do us Preterists, which the Jews and Muslims would be if they really studied the Scriptures like we do ehehe

Luke 19:41 And as He nears being aware the City He laments upon Her
44 and they shall be leveling thee and the offspring of thee in thee and not they shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee stead which not thou knew the time of the visitation of thee.

Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "she falls she falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations. [Jeremiah 51:8]

DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City - Page 2 - Christian Forums
DO NOT WEEP!!!!! The Great City

Click to expand...

Any form of simple logic should lead to the FACTS that sin, evil and death are still present, those 'works' being OF THE DEVIL(s) who are not yet eradicted (wrath to come---)

which understanding of course is not even on the preterists radar i.e. there is a HUGE CHUNK missing from the orbiter...

s

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 21, 2009

squint said:
LittleLambofJesus said:

Any form of simple logic should lead to the FACTS that sin, evil and death are still present, those 'works' being OF THE DEVIL(s) who are not yet eradicted (wrath to come---)

which understanding of course is not even on the preterists radar i.e. there is a HUGE CHUNK missing from the orbiter...

s

Click to expand...

Yes I hear that a lot from a few so called orthodox Partial Preterists too

In fact there is one that believes ALL of Matthew 24 is fulfilled BUT, does not believe that was the 2nd Advent/Parousia of Jesus.

I still haven't figured that one out yet, but you or other futurists are welcome to go here and talk about it with him and other Preterists. As for myself, I decided it was all futile, as it was when I debated the apostate Jews on the Bible some years back ehehe.....

Preterism - CARM.ORG - Christian Discussion Forums
Preterism

LittleLambofJesus · Oct 2, 2009

Am I correct in assuming that anyone that views all of Matt 24 fulfilled is considered "unorthodox" on CF? Thanks

http://www.christianforums.com/t7368885/#post51746235
New Statement of Faith at Christian Forums

and He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10: 42; 2 Timothy 4: 1)

thecountrydoc · Oct 2, 2009

KCDAD,
Your last post in response to my post:
Originally Posted by thecountrydoc

May God put His loving arms around each of you, His Holy Angels protect you, and the Holy Spirit guide

Are you being redundant for effect?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A very strange question. Are you not able to see three seperate request made to three distinct enities?

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

KCDAD · Oct 3, 2009

thecountrydoc said:
KCDAD,
Your last post in response to my post:
Originally Posted by thecountrydoc

May God put His loving arms around each of you, His Holy Angels protect you, and the Holy Spirit guide

Are you being redundant for effect?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A very strange question. Are you not able to see three seperate request made to three distinct enities?

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

Apparently you think Angels are real and the Holy Spirit is something other than God. OK, I am ok with that. I do have a problem with anything other than a metaphorical meaning to God's 'arms around you', however. And if God's arms are around me, the rest is unnecessary and redundant, isn't it?

3 distinct entities... God is everything, so how can something be distinct from God. (The forest is alive, and the third tree from the left is alive, too, and so is the bush over there on the hill)

How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled

I view it as none of it is fulfilled

I don't really know

Other [please explain]

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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