How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

interpreter · Aug 18, 2013

Matthew 24:30-31 was fulfilled in the 4th century when the sign of the Son of Man appeared in the clouds, and Jesus came into power through St. Constantine who rode a white horse and conquered with a bow. And he sent his messengers with a trumpet and gathered the elect of all the Church together, to Nicea.

jmt1323 · Aug 22, 2013

This is my teacher right here, and his class on what the Bible and many other sources have to say about this subject matter.

I can't post links yet, but go to youtube and search abtconcealedtruth, Matthew 24 completely fulfilled, it is a long video series describing each part in detail.

Thanks

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 22, 2013

Originally Posted by Gary51

I would have thought this thread was worthy of some debate.

I voted none.

Click to expand...

The Boxer said:
If none of it has been fulfilled, then Jesus was a FALSE prophet, for He told His disciples that THEY would see ALL come to pass in THEIR generation.

That is also the argument from the apostate religions of Judaism and Islam me thinks...

.

Serpentslayer · Aug 22, 2013

Most of it is fulfilled in Christ even the aspect of the thief (death) coming on a day and hour to destroy (kill) your earthly house (body) then the Lord's appearing is when you are brought before him to face judgement.

This is part and parcel of the resurrection of the dead that started when the Old Covenant Saints tombs were opened as recorded in Matthew 27:52-53 after Christ's resurrection when he took with him these once captives Ephesians 4:8-10 and in fulfilment of Old Testament scripture in Ezekiel 37:11-15.

So the resurrection of the dead is now and the separating of the sheep and goats is now and has been happening since the tombs were opened that was the start of the resurrection of the dead.

This resurrection of the dead will continue to happen until the end of age when Christ comes as a brilliant angelic light and declares time no longer by sounding the seventh trumpet, thereby erasing the time based Adam One realm altogether.

The part of Mathew 24:15-25 isn't fulfilled because the Abomination that maketh desolate who is the wicked one, the son of perdition the false earthly messiah to manifest in the time based realm has not yet been revealed. One the devil manifests himself as the beast of the bottomless Pitt to martyr the Apostolic church in a world wide Calvary then those days will be served by God with volleys upon volleys of cosmic judgements unparalleled since man was created. That is why scripture says:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Basically if ANY manifested Christ shows up in the time based realm anywhere own earth Christ warned us to not believe and not go anywhere near him. Christ would say if he appears in the desert don't go and if he appears in the secret or public chambers don't go there.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before.

The following versus point to satan being revealed to the world and accepted as the earthly messiah in the last hour of temptation that comes upon the world. That is why in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 it warns that once the world accepts this counterfeit impostor the devil pretending to be Christ they are condemned to spiritual eternal death.

God for this reason gives them that strong delusion to believe in a false earthly second coming doctrine so that they that believed not the truth that was established by the only begotten Son on his first and only earthly manifested advent are by why of association with this false second coming doctrine to accept this LIE makes them guilty to be condemned to eternal death.

So the second coming doctrine prepares them for that lie.

coraline · Aug 24, 2013

Serpentslayer said:
Most of it is fulfilled in Christ even the aspect of the thief (death) coming on a day and hour to destroy (kill) your earthly house (body) then the Lord's appearing is when you are brought before him to face judgement.

This is part and parcel of the resurrection of the dead that started when the Old Covenant Saints tombs were opened as recorded in Matthew 27:52-53 after Christ's resurrection when he took with him these once captives Ephesians 4:8-10 and in fulfilment of Old Testament scripture in Ezekiel 37:11-15.

So the resurrection of the dead is now and the separating of the sheep and goats is now and has been happening since the tombs were opened that was the start of the resurrection of the dead.

This resurrection of the dead will continue to happen until the end of age when Christ comes as a brilliant angelic light and declares time no longer by sounding the seventh trumpet, thereby erasing the time based Adam One realm altogether.

The part of Mathew 24:15-25 isn't fulfilled because the Abomination that maketh desolate who is the wicked one, the son of perdition the false earthly messiah to manifest in the time based realm has not yet been revealed. One the devil manifests himself as the beast of the bottomless Pitt to martyr the Apostolic church in a world wide Calvary then those days will be served by God with volleys upon volleys of cosmic judgements unparalleled since man was created. That is why scripture says:

Basically if ANY manifested Christ shows up in the time based realm anywhere own earth Christ warned us to not believe and not go anywhere near him. Christ would say if he appears in the desert don't go and if he appears in the secret or public chambers don't go there.

The following versus point to satan being revealed to the world and accepted as the earthly messiah in the last hour of temptation that comes upon the world. That is why in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 it warns that once the world accepts this counterfeit impostor the devil pretending to be Christ they are condemned to spiritual eternal death.

God for this reason gives them that strong delusion to believe in a false earthly second coming doctrine so that they that believed not the truth that was established by the only begotten Son on his first and only earthly manifested advent are by why of association with this false second coming doctrine to accept this LIE makes them guilty to be condemned to eternal death.

So the second coming doctrine prepares them for that lie.

I was raised to believe in the First Coming.

Never preached to about waiting & hoping & looking up to the sky for some "Second Coming." Which, by the way was for judgment as Jesus said He came into that 1st century Jewish world - for judgment. I believe its John 9. It was the judgment of Israel.

The "Second Coming" was spiritual. And the apostles & disciples were told to "watch" so THEY would be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, They themselves were the end of the age remnant of Israel. But that covenant ended.

Understand spiritual things. Not those physical material kingdom things which the Pharisees did.!

Jesus & the Father makes their home with us. The Spirit lives in us.

Many Christians have misplaced hope in some 2nd coming which accomplishes nothing that Jesus didn't already do.

They should be thankful & concentrate on His real coming. His resurrection, free grace & eternal life in heaven.

Having a personal relationship with the Lord through the H.S. is major.

I was always a First Coming believer. (30 yrs)

That's why when the phrase "Second Coming"came my way 10 yrs ago,-

I knew I was a full Preterist.

I knew it wasn't true.

My reality & death of my 1st family at a very young age, had God close to me.

He would never show me or tell me a lie.

Heaven's really blissful.

That's all He wrote.

No literal coming back to this sinful world.

Won't ever ever happen again.

Believe it!

Serpentslayer · Aug 25, 2013

coraline said:
I was raised to believe in the First Coming.

Never preached to about waiting & hoping & looking up to the sky for some "Second Coming." Which, by the way was for judgment as Jesus said He came into that 1st century Jewish world - for judgment. I believe its John 9. It was the judgment of Israel.

The "Second Coming" was spiritual. And the apostles & disciples were told to "watch" so THEY would be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, They themselves were the end of the age remnant of Israel. But that covenant ended.

Understand spiritual things. Not those physical material kingdom things which the Pharisees did.!

Jesus & the Father makes their home with us. The Spirit lives in us.

Many Christians have misplaced hope in some 2nd coming which accomplishes nothing that Jesus didn't already do.

They should be thankful & concentrate on His real coming. His resurrection, free grace & eternal life in heaven.

Having a personal relationship with the Lord through the H.S. is major.

I was always a First Coming believer. (30 yrs)

That's why when the phrase "Second Coming"came my way 10 yrs ago,-

I knew I was a full Preterist.

I knew it wasn't true.

My reality & death of my 1st family at a very young age, had God close to me.

He would never show me or tell me a lie.

Heaven's really blissful.

That's all He wrote.

No literal coming back to this sinful world.

Won't ever ever happen again.

Believe it!

Why would a glorified Christ come back to a sinful and dying world. When Christ sounds the seventh trumpet it will be when He calls it a day and time no longer meaning the sinful time based earthly realm has ended.

To be in heaven in the presence of Christ is to be in blissful love because you know in all your being that this is your Father. There is no worldly love that compares to his blissful love.

The Lord does come for the departed to cloth them with the garments of angels and he has been doing that for the last 2000 years and little does the world Know that Noah's ark is in Heavenly New Jerusalem where the faithful are taken to in safety under the wings of The Lord.

So as the world looks to a materialist second coming they forget to trim their lamps before darkness comes when the thief (death) comes for them in that day and hour.

Heaven is more real and tangible than this life yet people want to place all their eggs in this earthly basket, thinking they can have one foot firmly grounded on earth and the other in heaven, unbeknown to them that them muddying of their other foot prevents them to prepare for that hour, just like that rich man that Jesus offered to come with him, was discouraged because he had much riches invested in this world. Where is that rich man now and where are his earthly wealth has it not gone with the wind.

coraline · Aug 25, 2013

Serpentslayer said:
Why would a glorified Christ come back to a sinful and dying world. When Christ sounds the seventh trumpet it will be when He calls it a day and time no longer meaning the sinful time based earthly realm has ended.

To be in heaven in the presence of Christ is to be in blissful love because you know in all your being that this is your Father. There is no worldly love that compares to his blissful love.

The Lord does come for the departed to cloth them with the garments of angels and he has been doing that for the last 2000 years and little does the world Know that Noah's ark is in Heavenly New Jerusalem where the faithful are taken to in safety under the wings of The Lord.

So as the world looks to a materialist second coming they forget to trim their lamps before darkness comes when the thief (death) comes for them in that day and hour.

Heaven is more real and tangible than this life yet people want to place all their eggs in this earthly basket, thinking they can have one foot firmly grounded on earth and the other in heaven, unbeknown to them that them muddying of their other foot prevents them to prepare for that hour, just like that rich man that Jesus offered to come with him, was discouraged because he had much riches invested in this world. Where is that rich man now and where are his earthly wealth has it not gone with the wind.

Oh boy, where to even start with that?!

SS, I believe you have almost everything wrong when it comes to prophecies.

But at least you have the "heaven" part right! Angels have substance. We won't be ethereal vapors. But heaven's environment, NO one knows what it will consist of. I just can discern from some scriptures about rewards in heaven, then that those rewards may be what is for our individual happiness.

Say, seeing loved ones again. And finally getting answers that didn't happen on this side of eternity. Even seeing & playing with ones' beloved pets too.

But, There is no end of the physical world in scripture predicted.

The notion probably stemmed from the error in the KJV in Matthew 24:3, which has the disciples asking when will the end of the "world" be? They also asked Jesus when would the temple be left with no stone unturned AND the sign of Your coming? They asked "when would these thing be?

Most Bible versions have "end of the age" Which clears up all imaginations about the word of the physical heaven & earth.

It was to be the end of the Jewish age. The old covenant age. The new covenant is also termed the "new heaven & earth." We see in Hebrews that the old covenant had to wax old & pass away.

We also reconcile that theory with the New heaven & earth coming after the old passed away, seen in Rev. 21:1.

I'm not saying that there isn't a perfected heavenly reality of the New Jerusalem see as the new earth in Rev.21-22. For God did prepare a city for the deceased, faithful patriarchs, shown in Hebrews.
So that must be the "new heaven" & the new earth we see in scripture is representative all physical blessings in the new covenant of grace.
We see the tree of life is back. And the leaves of the trees are for the healing of nations.
What was lost in Adam, is gained back in Christ.
Our fruit doesn't fail year round. Just like Psalm 1 says for those who put their trust in Him.

Here is a link that describes the apocalyptic & prophetic symbols used in the Bible.
We full preterists can speak freely in this forum, so if you really desire truth, like me, & not just what tradition needs one to believe- then consider what what preterism teaches.

Who created "Orthodoxy" in the 1st place? It was uninspired men who wrote the Creeds.

But I'll believe what the Inspired writers in the Bible teach, Thank you very much!

Here's the link:
Prophetic Symbols and Apocalyptic Language Of The Bible

Jack Terrence · Aug 25, 2013

coraline said:
But, There is no end of the physical world in scripture predicted.

The notion probably stemmed from the error in the KJV in Matthew 24:3, which has the disciples asking when will the end of the "world" be? They also asked Jesus when would the temple be left with no stone unturned AND the sign of Your coming? They asked "when would these thing be?

Most Bible versions have "end of the age" Which clears up all imaginations about the word of the physical heaven & earth.

This is absolutely correct. The word "aion" means "age." The King James translators botched it up royally. Paul said that the end of the AGE (aion) had come upon THEM. 1 Corinthians 10:11

Serpentslayer · Aug 25, 2013

coraline said:
Oh boy, where to even start with that?!

SS, I believe you have almost everything wrong when it comes to prophecies.

But at least you have the "heaven" part right! Angels have substance. We won't be ethereal vapors. But heaven's environment, NO one knows what it will consist of. I just can discern from some scriptures about rewards in heaven, then that those rewards may be what is for our individual happiness.

Say, seeing loved ones again. And finally getting answers that didn't happen on this side of eternity. Even seeing & playing with ones' beloved pets too.

But, There is no end of the physical world in scripture predicted.

The notion probably stemmed from the error in the KJV in Matthew 24:3, which has the disciples asking when will the end of the "world" be? They also asked Jesus when would the temple be left with no stone unturned AND the sign of Your coming? They asked "when would these thing be?

Most Bible versions have "end of the age" Which clears up all imaginations about the word of the physical heaven & earth.

It was to be the end of the Jewish age. The old covenant age. The new covenant is also termed the "new heaven & earth." We see in Hebrews that the old covenant had to wax old & pass away.

We also reconcile that theory with the New heaven & earth coming after the old passed away, seen in Rev. 21:1.

I'm not saying that there isn't a perfected heavenly reality of the New Jerusalem see as the new earth in Rev.21-22. For God did prepare a city for the deceased, faithful patriarchs, shown in Hebrews.
So that must be the "new heaven" & the new earth we see in scripture is representative all physical blessings in the new covenant of grace.
We see the tree of life is back. And the leaves of the trees are for the healing of nations.
What was lost in Adam, is gained back in Christ.
Our fruit doesn't fail year round. Just like Psalm 1 says for those who put their trust in Him.

Here is a link that describes the apocalyptic & prophetic symbols used in the Bible.
We full preterists can speak freely in this forum, so if you really desire truth, like me, & not just what tradition needs one to believe- then consider what what preterism teaches.

Who created "Orthodoxy" in the 1st place? It was uninspired men who wrote the Creeds.

But I'll believe what the Inspired writers in the Bible teach, Thank you very much!

Here's the link:
Prophetic Symbols and Apocalyptic Language Of The Bible

Coralline.

Firstly let me clear some things about my belief so that there is no confusion.

I do not hold to any eschatological doctrines whether they be Futurists, Preterists (full/partial), Historicists or Idealists.

I believe owing to clear evidence amongst all these camps, that they have self refuting doctrinal views.

Therefore I have no ambition to go after worldly knowledge, wisdom and understanding of the Word of God.

Reading Scripture from a worldly doctrinal point of view only reveals the tip of the iceberg and not what lies beneath it. However revelation from God to his servants the prophets does equip a few that the sovereign Lord has selected to be able to know the mystery of what lies beneath the tip of the iceberg. Revelation comes from the knowledge, wisdom and understanding of God imparted to his servants the prophets (Revelation 10:7).

Now having said all that coralline I don't want to belittle anyone but want to explain to you that your full preterist guess work of scripture of what lies beneath the tip of the iceberg is wrong. Now why can I say it?

Throughout my life I have been shown visions upon visions that were all scripturally based yet the vision opened up a perspective from God's knowledge, wisdom and understanding of what lies beneath the tip of the iceberg.

I HAVE SEEN THE END

The END is not just one event but a climax of a number of events that happen in quick succession.

So what have I seen and who have I seen:

1) Satan being released

2) Destruction of the God's people comes swiftly at his hand

3) Destruction of the world and the cosmos is followed by God's wrath being unleashed upon the inhabitants if the world.

4) The world transformed from a beautiful paradise into a faceless open graveyard for the vultures.

5) The last physical battle that is fought on a destroyed planet resembling a thick clouded greenhouse environment with monsoon rain drenching the broken ground that never stops shaking.

6) The brilliant coming of The Lord

7) Christ sounding the trumpet of God the seventh trumpet mentioned in Revelation of John

You can speak from your full preterist camp to try and convey how they THINK they see that there is NO END. However you are certifiably wrong and not in one part of scripture but all of it. You see you can't go bunny hopping from one tip of the iceberg to another to build your whole theology upon, because I can say confidently that Full preterist have NO REVELATION input. You don't have ESCAVATORS to tell you what is underneath the iceberg, all your camp has is human observers who can only guess at what lies beneath the tip of the iceberg.

One more thing eternal life is not equated to eternal blessing after one physically dies. As the full preterist say these blessing continue eternally even when the person is perished. So the legacy of the full preterist is embedding this everlasting blessings into the world after he/she has departed into nothingness without a conscious and without a resurrection body. You see Mohammad and all the false religion heads can make this claim of eternal blessing and has nothing in context to do with Christ or his resurrection.

I believe where preterist especially full preterists have gotten it completely wrong is to endorse what liberal theologist advocated in the 80s where they denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, thereby turning the term the resurrection to eternal life as a metaphor that implies a knew lease on life to start over again, a new breath of fresh air so to speak.

The trappings of full preterists has liberal theology written all over it and if an eschatological view denies the the bodily resurrection, denies the resurrection of the dead for the departed, and if they deny that the departed are bodily resurrected as Christ said you will be like angels then they deny heavens existence a more real and tangible reality than our physical. Why would JESUS say from a women there is none greater than John the baptists yet the least in heaven is greater than him. The correlation that Jesus made between heaven and earth are so vast and embedded within parables that to deny ESSENCE and NATURE in any of the Orthodox doctrines concerning the bodily resurrection of Christ, the bodily resurrection of believers and a tangible and real heavenly kingdom real is to deny your existence here in this life.

I have realised that full preterist is a mish mash of liberal theology, Christian Science and all various allegories that diminish the gospel of Jesus Christ to water it down to say hey people you are blessed and your blessings will continue but you don't exist as a real and tangible bodily resurrected being and when you leave you become part of the ETHER cosmos (Christian scientists) and therefore will not be reunited with Jesus Christ but be reunited with all your other COSMOS NANU NANU PARTS.

I don't care much for what full preterists have to say but the most concerning thing to me is that THEY DON'T BELIEVE IN BEING REUNITED WITH CHRIST BY ESSENCE AND BY NATURE AS RESURRECTED CREATED BEINGS.

To me personally and I am sure to any christian out there you can think you have all the eternal blessings under the sun but if there is no reuniting with Christ as Old and New Testament scripture clearly convey in accordance to what the sovereign Lord has shown me then you can have ALL THE EARTHLY BLESSINGS, they mean absolutely nothing because you are still DEAD IN YOUR SINS if you think that blessings are not part and parcel of being invited to the wedding of the lamb of God in Heaven at the End of Age when the harvest has ended.

Scripture clearly states there is an END OF HARVEST and this implies an END.

The cult of liberal theology, the cult of Christian scientists, the cult of full preterism all have no hope if they believe that this life is all there is and it is not about being reunited with the Christ.

Ecclectic79 · Aug 26, 2013

I sided with mostly fulfilled due to the persuasive power of 'this generation', the number of different ways that Paul said it was imminent, all point to 70 AD being a primary fulfillment.

Some would claim that the millennial reign of Christ started in the 4th century and went up through the reformation. Viewing all of that in the light of spiritual events as they get researched today - such abstract fulfillment wouldn't stun or surprise me, it would also fit rather well for the New Jerusalem being around the corner, the final round of 'ye can be gods' temptation perhaps offered to us complements of our lovely space brothers and ascended masters ('global ascension' being the fraudulent language).

I still don't know what to say overall though between Matthew 24 and Revelations just because - the language seems to fall down on any theory people think of, badly enough with these two alone and even worse when people try to then press Daniel 7, 9, and 11 down over it with a dangling 70th week.

For those who believe all of this has to start within the next seven years to make 6,000 years (ie. 120 jubilee years of man), we'd need something incredibly inorganic. Looming global collapse looks like a possible mechanism but such kingdoms as the beast of Rev 13 and 17 would have to be full globalist/Illuminati pre-fabs that would hit the ground running almost within moments of said collapse. Something like that jives with conspiracy theory but doesn't jive with the mechanics of anything we've seen in history thus it's left in something of a doubtful light.

Ecclectic79 · Aug 26, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"
After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations

‘Mystical’: Pope says ‘God told me’ to quit

If Joseph Ratzinger/Benedict XVI is right that could lend a lot of credence to the Malachy O'Morgair prophecy.

Ecclectic79 · Aug 26, 2013

Hentenza said:
Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

1. Tribulation is yet to come. See Revelation.
2. The moon still gives its light and the stars have not fallen.
3. The Son of Man has not yet appear in the sky for ALL to see.

4. The tribes of the Earth are yet to mourn (only the Jews mourned the loss of the temple).
5. No great trumpet from Heaven yet.
6. The angels have not gathered the elect from the four winds.

Josephus, and other Roman writers, wrote about the destruction of Jerusalem. They also wrote about the Bar Kokhba revolt in 135 ad. NONE wrote about Jesus return in the clouds or any other event that is part of His second coming. Jesus has not yet returned.

With stars falling from the sky or the sun and moon not giving light, I tend to worry about apocalyptic language and how literally it's intended to be read.

One of the things that clearly jumps out in Daniel 8:

"Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people[a] and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.

Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”" Daniel 8:9-14

The language here, as well as the fourth beast of Daniel 7, heavily alludes to the Roman Empire. With Daniel 8:10 the language of stars literally being thrown down comes out in several English translations. If we can be pretty sure that such language has been used of things that have already occurred then we have a big context clue to start with.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 26, 2013

Originally Posted by coraline

But, There is no end of the physical world in scripture predicted.

The notion probably stemmed from the error in the KJV in Matthew 24:3, which has the disciples asking when will the end of the "world" be? They also asked Jesus when would the temple be left with no stone unturned AND the sign of Your coming? They asked "when would these thing be?

Most Bible versions have "end of the age" Which clears up all imaginations about the word of the physical heaven & earth.

The Boxer said:
This is absolutely correct. The word "aion" means "age." The King James translators botched it up royally.

Paul said that the end of the AGE (aion) had come upon THEM. 1 Corinthians 10:11

That is where a good concordance, that shows different Bible versions, can come in handy.

Young LT appears to translate that greek word better than most Bible versions do.

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon :: G165
Strong's Number G165 matches the Greek αἰών (aiōn), which occurs 128 times in 102 verses in the Greek concordance

Mat 13:49
so shall it be in the full end of the age,
the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,

Mat 24:3
And when He is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to Him by Himself, saying, `Tell us! when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of Thy parousia, and of the full end of the age?'

1Cr 10:11
And all these things as types did happen to those persons, and they were written for our admonition, to whom the end of the ages did come,

View Poll Results: Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled
08/26/13

I view all of it fulfilled

36 23.68%

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled

62 40.79%

I view it as none of it is fulfilled

21 13.82%

I don't really know

15 9.87%

Other [please explain]

18 11.84%

.

Jack Terrence · Aug 26, 2013

Lamb of Jesus' poll results shows that futurism is indeed dying.

Ecclectic79 · Aug 26, 2013

BTW, just so I understand - was this thread moved to unorthodox specifically because the OP took a stance in any given direction or does CF, as a rule, deem preterism to be heterodox?

Der Alte · Aug 26, 2013

Ecclectic79 said:
BTW, just so I understand - was this thread moved to unorthodox specifically because the OP took a stance in any given direction or does CF, as a rule, deem preterism to be heterodox?

See the Statement of Pupose at the top of this forum. Full Preterism is considered Unorthodox. http://www.christianforums.com/t7758825/#post63568632

Der Alte · Aug 26, 2013

The Boxer said:
This is absolutely correct. The word "aion" means "age." The King James translators botched it up royally. Paul said that the end of the AGE (aion) had come upon THEM. 1 Corinthians 10:11

I beg to differ.

Aionio's" - A Lexical Survey
by Tom Logan

Nine language sources cited. Fourteen total references! 1. NAS Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries, 2. Thayers Lexicon, 3. Vines Expository of Biblical Words, 3 references, 4. Louw-Nida Greek English Lexicon of the NT based on Semantic Domains, 2 references, 5. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 6. Abridged Greek lexicon, Liddell-Scott, 7. Enhanced Strongs Lexicon, 3 references, 8. Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker Greek English Lexicon of the NT and other Early Christian Literature, 9. Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the NT.

Aion, Aionios and the lexicons:
166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong, eternal: eternal(66), eternity(1), forever(1).

Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries,

166 aionios- αιωνιος
1) without beginning and end, what has always been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

---Thayers

2. αιωνιος aionios [166] "describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in <Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 1:2>; or undefined because endless as in <Rom. 16:26>, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in <2 Cor. 4:18>, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., `for a season,' and in <Philem. 15>, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, <Rom. 16:26>; of His power, <1 Tim. 6:16>, and of His glory, <1 Pet. 5:10>; of the Holy Spirit, <Heb. 9:14>; of the redemption effected by Christ, <Heb. 9:12>, and of the consequent salvation of men, <5:9>, as well as of His future rule, <2 Pet. 1:11>, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, <Luke 1:33>; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, <John 3:16>, concerning whom He said, `they shall never perish,' <10:28>, and of the resurrection body, <2 Cor. 5:1>, elsewhere said to be `immortal,' <1 Cor. 15:53>, in which that life will be finally realized, <Matt. 25:46; Titus 1:2>.

"Aionios is also used of the sin that `hath never forgiveness,' <Mark 3:29>, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, <Heb. 6:2>, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, <Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7>, and which is elsewhere said to be `unquenchable,' <Mark 9:43>.
"The use of aionios here shows that the punishment referred to in <2 Thes. 1:9>, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology shows that its purpose is not remedial but retributive."

67.96 αιωνιος aji>vdio", on; aijwvnio", on: pertaining to an unlimited duration of time - eternal.
aji>vdio"ò h{ te aji>vdio" aujtou` duvnami" kai; qeiovth" his eternal power and divine nature Ro 1.20.
aijwvnio"ò blhqh`nai eij" to; pu`r to; aijwvnion be thrown into the eternal fire Mt 18.8; tou` aijwnivou qeou` of the eternal God Ro 16.26.

The most frequent use of aijwvnio" in the NT is with zwhv life, for example, i{na pa`" oJ pisteuvwn ejn aujtw/` e[ch/ zwh;n aijwvnion so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life Jn 3.15. In combination with zwhv there is evidently not only a temporal element, but also a qualitative distinction. In such contexts, aijwvnio" evidently carries certain implications associated with aijwvnio" in relationship to divine and supernatural attributes. If one translates eternal life as simply never dying, there may be serious misunderstandings, since persons may assume that never dying refers only to physical existence rather than to spiritual death. Accordingly, some translators have rendered eternal life as unending real life, so as to introduce a qualitative distinction.

Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.

αιωνιος aionios. An adjective meaning eternal, and found in the LXX in Pss. 24; 77:5; Gen. 21:33, aionios in the NT is used 1. of God (Rom. 16:26), 2. of divine possessions and gifts (2 Cor. 4:18; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 5:10; 1 Tim. 6:16; 2 Th. 2:16, and 3. of the eternal kingdom (2 Pet. 1:11), inheritance (Heb. 9:15), body (2 Cor. 5:1), and even judgment (Heb. 6:2, though cf. Mt. 18:8; 2 Th. 1:9, where the sense is perhaps unceasing). For a more temporal use, see Rom. 16:25; Phlm. 15.

Kittel, Gerhard, and Friedrich, Gerhard, Editors, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume, (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company) 1985.

αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age (aion 3), Plat.: ever-lasting, eternal, Id.

Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992.

166 aionios { ahee-o-nee-os} αιωνιος
from 165; TDNT - 1:208,31; adj
AV - eternal 42, everlasting 25, the world began + 5550 2, since the world began + 5550 1, for ever 1; 71
GK - 173 { aionios }
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Enhanced Strongs Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995.

CL The Gk. word αιων aion, which is probably derived from aei, always, is distinguished from its Indo-European parallels (Lat. aevum and Eng. aye are cognate) in that it is thought of not so much from the point of view of an abstract period of time as from the point of view of the time in which one has lived. In Hom. aion is often parallel with psyche, soul, life (e.g. Il. 16, 453); in Hesiod (Frag. 161, 1) it denotes a life-span, and in Aeschylus (Sept. 742) a generation. Thence it can mean the time which one has already lived or will live, i.e. it can relate to past as to future. It thus appeared appropriate to later philosophers to use the word both for the dim and distant past, the beginning of the world, and for the far future, eternity (e.g. Plato, Tim. 37d).

Plato (Timoeus, ed. Steph. 3, 37, or ed. Baiter, Orell. et Winck. 712) says, speaking of the universe: "When the father who begot it* perceived that the image made by him of the eternal (aidion) gods moved and lived, he was delighted with his work; and, led by this delight, thought to make his work much more like that first exemplar." Inasmuch therefore as it (the intelligible universe) is an eternal (aidion) animal (living being), so he set about to make this (the sensible) universe such with all his power. The nature therefore of the animal (living being) was eternal (aionios, before aidios), and this indeed it was impossible to adapt to what was produced (to genneto, to what had a beginning); he thinks to make a moveable image of eternity (aionos), and in adoring the heavens he makes of the eternity permanent in unity a certain eternal image moving in number, that which in fact we call time; that is, days and nights, and months and years, which did not subsist before the heaven began to be, then with its being established he operates their birth" (beginning to be, genesin auton). And after unfolding this, he says (p. 38): "But these forms of time imitating eternity (aiona), and rolling round according to number, have had a beginning (gegonen).... Time therefore began with heaven. that they having begun with it may be dissolved with it, if there be indeed any dissolution of them, and according to the pattern of eternal (diaionias, in some MSS. aionion or -as) nature that it might be as like as possible to it. For that pattern exists for all eternity (panta aiona estin on), but on the other hand, that which is perpetual (dia telous) throughout all time has had a beginning, and is, and will be." And then he goes on to speak of stars and planets, etc., as connected with what was created in time. It is impossible to conceive any more positive statement that aion is distinct, and to be contrasted with what has a beginning and belongs to the flux of time. Aion is what is properly eternal, in contrast with a divine imitation of it in ages of time, the result of the creative action of God which imitated the uncreate as nearly as He could in created ages. It is a careful opposition between eternity and ages; and aion and also aionios mean the former in contrast with ages. ]

In Plato the term is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and the earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.
* * *

NIDNTT Colin Brown

Aristotle peri ouranou, 1, 9 (ed. Bekker, 1, 279): "Time," he says, "is the number of movement, but there is no movement without a physical body. But outside heaven it has been shewn that there is not, nor possibly can come into existence, any body. It is evident then that there is neither place, nor void, nor time outside. Wherefore neither in place are things there formed by nature; nor does time cause them to grow old: neither is there any change of anything of those things which are arranged beyond the outermost orbit; but unchangeable, and subject to no influence, having the best and most independent life, they continue for all eternity (aiona). For this expression (name) has been divinely uttered by the ancients; for the completeness which embraces the time of the life of each, outside which there is nothing, according to nature, is called the aion of each. According to the same word (logon) the completeness of the whole heaven, and the completeness which embraces all time and infinitude is aion, having received this name from existing for ever (apo tou aei einai), immortal (athanatos, undying), and divine." In 10 he goes on to shew that that beginning to be (genesthai) involves the not existing always, which I refer to as shewing what he means by aion. He is proving the unchangeable eternity of the visible universe. That is no business of mine; but it shews what he means by eternity (aion). It cannot be aidion and genesthai at the same time, when, as in Plato, aidios is used as equivalent to aionios. Aristotle has not the abstract thoughts of Plato as to ideas, and the paradeigma of what is visible, the latter being a produced image of the eternal paradeigma. He rests more in what is known by the senses; and makes this the eternal thing in itself. But the force of aion for both is a settled point; and Aristotle's explanation of aion as used for finite things, I have long held to be the true one; that is, the completeness of a thing's existence, so that according to its natural existence there is nothing outside or beyond it. It periechei the whole being of the thing. 126

Der Alte · Aug 26, 2013

Philo, the sentence is in De Mundo, 7, en aioni de oute pareleluthen ouden, oute mellei, alla monon iphesteken. Such a definition needs no explanation: in eternity nothing is passed, nothing is about to be, but only subsists. This has the importance of being of the date and Hellenistic Greek of the New Testament, as the others give the regular, and at the same time philosophical force of the word, aion, aionios. Eternity, unchangeable, with no 'was' nor 'will be,' is its proper force, that it can be applied to the whole existence of a thing, so that nothing of its nature was before true or after is true, to telos to periechon. But its meaning is eternity, and eternal. To say that they do not mean it in Greek, as Jukes and Farrar and S. Cox, and those they quote, is a denial of the statements of the very best authorities we can have on the subject. If Plato and Aristotle and Philo knew Greek, what these others say is false. That this is the proper sense of aionios in Scripture, is as certain as it is evident. In 2 Corinthians 4: 18, we have ta gar blepomena proskaira, ta de me blepomena aionia. That is, things that are for a time are put in express contrast with aionia, which are not for a time, be it age or ages, but eternal. Nothing can be more decisive of its positive and specific meaning.

0166 aionios αιωνιος without beginning or end, eternal, everlasting
LEH lxx lexicon
UBS GNT Dict. # 169 (Str#166)
aionios eternal (of quality rather than of time); unending, everlasting, for all time
aijwvnio" (iva Pla., Tim. 38b; Jer 39:40; Ezk 37:26; 2 Th 2:16; Hb 9:12; as v.l. Ac 13:48; 2 Pt 1:11; Bl-D. §59, 2; Mlt.-H. 157), on eternal (since Hyperid. 6, 27; Pla.; inscr., pap., LXX; Ps.-Phoc. 112; Test. 12 Patr.; standing epithet for princely, esp. imperial power: Dit., Or. Index VIII; BGU 176; 303; 309; Sb 7517, 5 [211/2 ad] kuvrio" aij.; al. in pap.; Jos., Ant. 7, 352).
1. without beginning crovnoi" aij. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro; crovnwn aij. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (on crovno" aij. cf. Dit., Or. 248, 54; 383, 10).
2. without beginning or end; of God (Ps.-Pla., Tim. Locr. 96c qeo;n t. aijwvnion; Inscr. in the Brit. Mus. 894 aij. k. ajqavnato"; Gen 21:33; Is 26:4; 40:28; Bar 4:8 al.; Philo, Plant. 8; 74; Sib. Or., fgm. 3, 17 and 4; PGM 1, 309; 13, 280) Ro 16:26; of the Holy Spirit in Christ Hb 9:14. qrovno" aij. 1 Cl 65:2 (cf. 1 Macc 2:57).
3. without end (Diod. S. 1, 1, 5; 5, 73, 1; 15, 66, 1 dovxa aij. everlasting fame; in Diod. S. 1, 93, 1 the Egyptian dead are said to have passed to their aij. oi[khsi"; Arrian, Peripl. 1, 4 ej" mnhvmhn aij.; Jos., Bell. 4, 461 aij. cavri"=a gracious gift for all future time; Dit., Or. 383, 10 [I bc] eij" crovnon aij.; ECEOwen, oi\ko" aij.: JTS 38, 37, 248-50) of the next life skhnai; aij. Lk 16:9 (cf. En. 39, 5). oijkiva, contrasted w. the oijkiva ejpivgeio", of the glorified body 2 Cor 5:1. diaqhvkh (Gen 9:16; 17:7; Lev 24:8; 2 Km 23:5 al.) Hb 13:20. eujaggevlion Rv 14:6; kravto" in a doxolog. formula (=eij" tou;" aijw`na") 1 Ti 6:16. paravklhsi" 2 Th 2:16. luvtrwsi" Hb 9:12. klhronomiva (Esth 4:17m) vs. 15; aij. ajpevcein tinav (opp. pro;" w{ran) keep someone forever Phlm 15 (cf. Job 40:28). Very often of Gods judgment (Diod. S. 4, 63, 4 dia; th;n ajsevbeian ejn a{/dou diatelei`n timwriva" aijwnivou tugcavnonta; similarly 4, 69, 5; Jer 23:40; Da 12:2; Ps 76:6; 4 Macc 9:9; 13:15) kovlasi" aij. (Test. Reub. 5:5) Mt 25:46; 2 Cl 6:7; krivma aij. Hb 6:2; qavnato" B 20:1. o[leqron (4 Macc 10:15) 2 Th 1:9. pu`r (4 Macc 12:12.Sib. Or. 8, 401 fw`" aij.) Mt 18:8; 25:41; Jd 7; Dg 10:7 (IQS 2, 8). aJnavrthma Mk 3:29 (v.l. krivsew" and aJmartiva"). On the other hand of eternal life (Maximus Tyr. 6, 1d qeou` zwh; aij.; Diod. S. 8, 15, 3 life meta; to;n qavnaton lasts eij" a{panta aijw`na; Da 12:2; 4 Macc 15:3; PsSol 3, 12; Philo, Fuga 78; Jos., Bell. 1, 650; Sib. Or. 2, 336) in the Kingdom of God: zwh; aij. Mt 19:16, 29; 25:46; Mk 10:17, 30; Lk 10:25; 18:18, 30; Ac 13:46, 48; Ro 2:7; 5:21 al.; J 3:15f, 36; 4:14, 36 al.; 1J 1:2; 2:25 al.D 10:3; 2 Cl 5:5; 8:4, 6; IEph 18:1; Hv 2, 3, 2; 3, 8, 4 al. Also basileiva aij. 2 Pt 1:11 (cf. Da 4:3; 7:27; Philo, Somn. 2, 285; Dit., Or. 569, 24 uJpe;r th`" aijwnivou kai; ajfqavrtou basileiva" uJmw`n; Dssm. B 279f, BS 363). Of the glory in the next life dovxa aij. 2 Ti 2:10 (cf. Wsd 10:14; Jos., Ant. 15, 376.Sib. Or. 8, 410). aijwvnion bavro" dovxh" 2 Cor 4:17; swthriva aij. (Is 45:17; Ps.-Clem., Hom. 1, 19) Hb 5:9; short ending of Mk. Of heavenly glory in contrast to the transitory world of the senses ta; mh; blepovmena aijwvnia 2 Cor 4:18.carav IPhld inscr.; doxavzesqai aijwnivw/ e[rgw/ be glorified by an everlasting deed IPol 8:1. DHill, Gk. Words and Hebr. Mngs. 67, 186-201. M-M.

Bauer, Walter, Gingrich, F. Wilbur, and Danker, Frederick W., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press) 1979.

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS - AIONIOS -- AN IN DEPTH STUDY

αιων
Strong's - Greek 165

NRSV (the uses of the word in various contexts in the NRSV text):
again, age, course, end, eternal, forever, permanent, time, world, worlds

CGED (A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, by Barclay M. Newman, New York: United Bible Societies, 1993, page 5):
age; world order; eternity (ap aion or pro aion, from the beginning; eis aion, and the strengthened form eis tous aion, ton aion, always, forever); Aeon (personified as an evil force); existence, the present life (Mt 13:22; Mk 4.19)

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology [NIDNTT], Volume 3 (edited by Colin Brown, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1978, page 827, 830):
In Plato the term [aion] is developed so as to represent a timeless, immeasurable and transcendent super-time, an idea of time in itself. Plutarch and other earlier Stoics appropriate this understanding, and from it the Mysteries of Aion, the god of eternity, could be celebrated in Alexandria, and gnosticism could undertake its own speculations on time.

In Hellenistic philosophy the concept of aeons contributed towards a solution of the problem of the world-order. The aeons were assumed to be mediating powers which bridge the infinite qualitative distinction between God and the world. They are an emanation of the divine pleroma, the fullness of the divine Being.

The statements of the Johannine [John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John] writings, which cannot always be pinned down with absolute certainty of meaning.., Heb., where the meaning is quite clear .. and naturally those cases where aion is used in the plural, all reveal a strong inclination to conceive of a timeless, because post-temporal, eternity As in the OT [Old Testament], these statements reveal the background conviction that God's life never ends, i.e. that everything belonging to him can also never come to an end

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aion - αιων - age, world
A. "for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity; the worlds, universe; period of time, age."

Enhanced Strongs Lexicon, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1995, [Online] Available: Logos Library System.

aionion, aionios αιωνιον, αιωνιος - eternal
B. "aionios," the adjective corresponding, denoting eternal. It is used of that which in nature is endless, as, e.g., of God, (Rom. 16:26), His power, (1 Tim. 6:16), His glory, (1 Pet. 5:10), the Holy Spirit, (Heb. 9:14), redemption, (Heb. 9:12), salvation, (5:9), life in Christ, (John 3:16), the resurrection body, (2 Cor. 5:1), the future rule of Christ, (2 Pet. 1:11), which is declared to be without end, (Luke 1:33), of sin that never has forgiveness, (Mark 3:29), the judgment of God, (Heb. 6:2), and of fire, one of its instruments, (Matt. 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7)."
i. Rom. 16:26 - " . . .according to the commandment of the eternal God. . ."
ii. 1 Tim. 6:16 - ". . . To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen."
iii. 1 Pet. 5:10 - " . . . who called you to His eternal glory in Christ,"
iv. Mark 3:29 - " . . . never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin."
v. etc.
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, Available: Logos Library System.

"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Rom. 16:25; 2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Rom. 16:26, and the other sixtysix places in the N.T.
A. Rom. 16:25 - " . . which has been kept secret for long ages past,"
B. Rom 16:26 - ". . . according to the commandment of the eternal God,"
C. 2 Tim. 1:9 - ". . . which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"
D. Titus 1:2 - "the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised" long ages ago"
SOURCE: Vine, W. E., Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981, [Online] Available: Logos Library System)

Eis tous aionios ton aionion εις τους αιωνας των αιωνιωον - Forever and Ever, Lit. "into the age of the ages"
A. "unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future - always, forever, forever and ever, eternally."
B. Phil. 4:20 - ". . .to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever."
C. Rev. 19:3 - " . . .Her smoke rises up forever and ever."
D. Rev. 20:20 - "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
SOURCE: Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989, Available: Logos Library System.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 26, 2013

Originally Posted by Ecclectic79

BTW, just so I understand - was this thread moved to unorthodox specifically because the OP took a stance in any given direction or does CF, as a rule, deem preterism to be heterodox?

Der Alter said:
See the Statement of Pupose at the top of this forum. Full Preterism is considered Unorthodox. http://www.christianforums.com/t7758825/#post63568632

Full preterism sees all of the Olivet Discourse as all fulfilled, but....they or some do not know how much of Revelation is fulfilled or even knowing whether the Olivet Discourse is the same event depicted in that book, tho the majority consensus it that it is the same.
Another words, if the Olivet Discourse is the same event as Revelation is showing, then Full Preterists would have to prove ALL of Revelation is fulfilled upon the destruction of OC Jerusalem in AD 70]
[Not sure how the Jews view it

http://www.christianforums.com/t7276015/
Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

View Poll Results: Yes or No on Olivet Discourse and Revelation same event

I view them as the same event

27 60.00%

I do not view them as the same event

5 11.11%

My denomination has no view on it

2 4.44%

Other [please elaborate]

11 24.44%

.

Ecclectic79 · Aug 26, 2013

Der Alter said:
See the Statement of Pupose at the top of this forum. Full Preterism is considered Unorthodox. http://www.christianforums.com/t7758825/#post63568632

TY.

How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

Amount of Matt 24 fulfilled

I view all of it fulfilled

I view it as mostly/partially fulfilled

I view it as none of it is fulfilled

I don't really know

Other [please explain]

Senior Member

Newbie

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Fighting the good fight

Well-Known Member

Prayer in Breakbeat

Prayer in Breakbeat

Prayer in Breakbeat

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Fighting the good fight

Prayer in Breakbeat

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Prayer in Breakbeat

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