How much of Matthew 24 is fulfilled

[Gary51]

Me neither

I am hoping we can get more votes in. I will be happy with at least 50 total.

If you get another vote for option 1, that would be a surprise!

 

[Blackmarch]

I didn't want to put this on the Eschatology board as there is not many posting over there.

The question I want to ask those Christian here on CF is how much of Matthew 24 and the Olivet Discourse do you view a fulfilled.

I hope I gave the right options and I am really hoping to get some input on others here on it. Thank you and God bless

Matthew 24:3 Of sitting yet of Him upon the Mount of the Olives toward-came to Him the Disciples according to own saying "be telling to us when? shall these-things be and what? the Sign of the Thy ParousiaV <3952> and the together-finish/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age" [Daniel 12/Revelation 15:1]

good question

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

this has happened.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

this has happened and continues to happen.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

this is happening much, much more htan it has in the past.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.

this has happened and quite possible may happen again.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

this is happening... and he's talking about the church here.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

this has happened (and will happen again)

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

this is quite evident today

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

this has not happened yet, but we are in the process of bringing it about.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

I don't think this has happened.... but, there have been a few instances in history that this could be reffering to.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

the main reason I say so because things like this have happened.

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

I don't believe the event this is referring to has happened yet.. but there have been events which have been similar to this.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

this has happened

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

this has happened and will likely happen again

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

this has happaned, and will likely happen again

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in bheaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

this has not happened yet

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

this is in the process of happening.


A lot of it has been fulfilled or quite likely has been fulfilled.
some is in the process of being fullfilled.
and a little is left to yet be fulfilled.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If you get another vote for option 1, that would be a surprise!

If the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are the same event, then what is left to fulfill if the Parousia of Jesus already happened as shown in Revelation 15/16/19?

Btw, I could use some more input here.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7276015-2/
Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

Luke 21:7 They inquire yet of Him saying "Teacher! when then these shall be and what the Sign whenever may be being about these to be becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738).

Reve 16:17 and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out Voice great from the sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become"/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 21:6]

 

[B1inHim]

WOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo WHOOOOooooo i guessed right...LOL

There are things that are in place and others that will happen soon...
keep up the GOD work

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

WOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo WHOOOOooooo i guessed right...LOL

There are things that are in place and others that will happen soon...
keep up the GOD work

Luke 21:31 "Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing these these becoming, ye are knowing that NIGH/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God."

Reve 1:3 Happy the one reading and the ones hearing the Words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been Written for the Time NIGH/egguV <1451>. [Reve 22:6,10]

 

[Blackmarch]

If the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are the same event, then what is left to fulfill if the Parousia of Jesus already happened as shown in Revelation 15/16/19?

Btw, I could use some more input here.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7276015-2/
Olivet Discourse and Revelation Same Event?

Luke 21:7 They inquire yet of Him saying "Teacher! when then these shall be and what the Sign whenever may be being about these to be becoming/ginesqai <1096> (5738).

Reve 16:17 and the seventh Messenger pours out the bowl of him into the air and came out Voice great from the sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become"/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 21:6]

I don't think revelations 15 has much relation to the discourse... other than a reference to plagues and that there will be plagues in the tribulation or just before the tribulation. However if I recall right, I believe the angels represent or are in charge of different eras/generations- so it's quite possibly referring to more than just the tribulation times.

In revelation 16 the first half is very symbolic and I can't easily tell if it is just dealing with the last days, but the last half certainly seems to.

Revelation 17 is dealing with recent history to a point that seems to be near the tribulation, at least events that musst occur before Christ comes.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't think revelations 15 has much relation to the discourse... other than a reference to plagues and that there will be plagues in the tribulation or just before the tribulation. However if I recall right, I believe the angels represent or are in charge of different eras/generations- so it's quite possibly referring to more than just the tribulation times.

In revelation 16 the first half is very symbolic and I can't easily tell if it is just dealing with the last days, but the last half certainly seems to.

Revelation 17 is dealing with recent history to a point that seems to be near the tribulation, at least events that musst occur before Christ comes.

Greetings and thank you for both voting and giving the Mormon view.

Since you voted as viewing Matt 24 as been partially fulfilled, how much of it do you view as fulfilled?

That is really what I am interested in hearing from others right now and I may make another poll on how much of Revelation Christians here view as fulfilled and future. Thanks

 

[Evergreen48]

If you get another vote for option 1, that would be a surprise!

I hope you like surprises, Gary. I just voted with LLOJ,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I hope you like surprises, Gary. I just voted with LLOJ,

Thank you for your vote.

How did you arrive at that view? Thanks

 

[Gary51]

I hope you like surprises, Gary. I just voted with LLOJ,

Yeah, but do you mean it, or just having fun?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yeah, but do you mean it, or just having fun?

You would be surprised at the number of Partial Preterists that view all of Matt 24 as fulfilled.
I also debate Matthew 24 on another forum, and on that particular one, you can still be an "orthodox preterist" even if you view all of Matt 24 as fulfilled as this one poster proclaimed.

quote poster: "I'm an orothodox preterist, yes Matt 24 was fulfilled in AD70",

*****

 

[Gary51]

Thank you for your vote.

How did you arrive at that view? Thanks

Nice one!

When he tells you how he arrived at that view, I will consider his vote genuine. Until then you're on your own.

 

[Gary51]

You would be surprised at the number of Partial Preterists that view all of Matt 24 as fulfilled.
I debate on another forum and on this particular one you can still be an "orthodox preterist" even if you view all of Matt 24 as fulfilled.

quote poster: "I'm an orothodox preterist, yes Matt 24 was fulfilled in AD70",

*****

I'm not even going there, it's too loopy for me!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm not even going there, it's too loopy for me!

I understand. It does seems to be a little more clearer if you harmonize Matt 24 with Revelation. For example, Matthew is the only Gospel to even mention "trumpets".
Hopefully more will drop in and vote

4537. salpizo sal-pid'-zo from 4536; to trumpet, i.e. sound a blast (literally or figuratively):--(which are yet to) sound (a trumpet). [Used 12 times in NT. Only used in Matt of the Gospels and and 1 Corin 15]

Matthew 24:31 and He shall be sending His Messengers with a great Trumpet sound and they shall be together-gathering the Called-ones of Him out of the four winds, from extremities of heavens till the extremities of them. [1 Corin 15:52/Revelation 8:6]

Revelation 8:6 And the seven Messengers having the seven Trumpets make ready themselves, that they-should-be-Trumpeting/salpizein <4537> (5721)
[Joshua 6:4/Matt 24:31]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Wonder how I can get more CF members to come and vote on this? Over 400 views and only 18 votes....sigh

I am still hoping for at least 50 total, or else I will have to use the tally as a percentage of each view and see how it cuts across different Denominations.
Come on folks......I really need more input on this. Thanks

 

[Notrash]

Great question!

I would have voted "mostly/partially fulfilled' but I instead voted "other". The reason being is that I think it would have been better to separate "mostly fulfilled" and "partially fulfilled" into separate choices. As I would have then voted "partially".

At the moment, my view on this topic is that only the beginning segment of Matt 24 could possibly already be fulfilled. And that doesn't mean that it necessarily has been fulfilled but I view it as highly possible. I am talking about the false messiahs, wars and rumors of wars, famines, and earthquakes which Christ spoke about. Considering that Jesus said that these were only the beginning of the birth pains and that more would come, it is possible that all the terrible things we see happening in our world could become much worse if these prophecies at the beginning of Matt 24 are yet to be fulfilled.

As for the rest of Matt 24:

Have all the nations heard about the Good News about the Kingdom?

According to verse 14 this has to happen first and then the end will come. I'm not sure that this has been completely fulfilled. North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan are a few nations that come to mind. As I understand it is illegal to preach the Gospel in those countries. So perhaps not every corner of the earth has been able to hear the Good News.

A couple of other reasons on why I view much of Matt 24 as not yet fulfilled:

a) The sun hasn't been darkened. The moon still gives us light at night. The stars have not fallen from the sky. The powers of heaven have not been shaken.

b) Jesus Christ has not yet appeared in the heavens.


I don't claim to know. This is just my current understanding. I would like to understand the reasoning behind your position however. There seems to be plenty of verses in Matt 24 which appear to be still unfulfilled. What is your understanding on these verses?

I've come to a 'consistent preterist' perspective after about a 4 yr journey beginning by researching the political/socialist beginnings of dispensationalism, (the modern version) and then by requesting answers about eschatology of the H.S. and then through researching historical data moslty on historist and preterist sites, but much also by using blue letter bible to research greek words and their meanings.

I call it 'consistent preterist' because I seek to use a consistent practice of putting myself in the mindset of the person hearing Christs words or being someone to whom the letter or gospel record was originally intended for. This includes attempting to understand the old covenant mindset and progressive history of the old covenant including it's failings in babylon and the removal of the ark of the covenant even while afterwards the priests practiced the rest of the laws. I seek to consistently place myself in the midst of the recorded conversations rather than treat the writings with a attitude of a law or position to obey in order to 'justify myself.

Various parts of scripture including Dueteronomy, (where the old covenant is summarized and listed) the ending of the old covenant and the last generation as described in Duet 32; Daniel's prophecy about that end generation (within 490 yrs of the telling of the prophecies) and the disciples understanding about the end of that age have come together to confirm and continually reaffirm this perspective.

The points you mention above, are all fulfilled if you take the time to research them.
Paul and I think Peter all say that the gospel had (past tense) been spoke all over the "oikomene". I think Paul was talking to Felix or the Jews in Rome when he mentioned this. Check it out for yourself.
This was before the desolation/end of the old covenant national Israel age and the end of the 'age'

I understand the sun, moon and stars darkening as a linguistic association that Christ was using with what had happened to Bablyon by the Medes as prophecied in Isaiah 13.

10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.

This is talking of what happened when the Medes overthrew the Babylonian empire. And Christ is using it to explain what would happen when the 'empire' of judaism would be overthrown. It created an association in the disciples (who were all jews) minds with the change of power and the releasing of the beleivers which occured when they escaped Judea (at that time) between the time of Cassius circling of Jerusalem and Titus circling and the desolation.

They were to wait for that sign because to go out before that sign would have been going out into Roman Pesecution. But afterwards and after Nero's death, the tide and sympathy changed and the believers in Christs words walked right through and among those who were coming to destroy the cities and war with those who remained behind.

When you study the difference of the words used for his appearing 'in the clouds', there is a different greek word used for general clouds of heaven and the word for cloud formations. The words used when Jesus was to appear in the clouds is the one used for low lying cloud formations. The believing Jewish mind would associate these words with the presence of God in the cloud that led them in the wilderness after being led out of Egypt and which appeared at other times in their history. Some of those who remained alive through the Neronic persecutions and who lived in Judea would witness and see cloud formations of Roman soldiers running to and fro among the clouds with even their armor supposedly glittering and with horses and chariots. These are recorded in both Josephus and more importantly in Tactucus' records.

What has further confirmed these fulfilments is to understand how Hebrew Parallelism aids in understanding some of the poetic prophecies such as Dan 9 where there is a prophecied prince of the people to come within the next 490 yrs. HE who confirms the covenant is not the prince of the people to come; but rather is the Messiah who confirmed and established the covenant of Mercy in Jerusalem which also was the bruising/crushing of Satan promised to Adam/Eve through the seed of Eve.

Likewise, Duet 32 talks about the end time generation of Gods workings though the old covenant people and tells of how many would sacrifice to Gods their fathers did not know and which were not the Rock. Deut 32:42 in NKJV says that the sword to come upon end generation national Israel of the old covenant who would not hear that prophet (Acts 3 quotes Duet) would be 'through the minds of the leaders of the enemies'. This would refer to the Roman generals and their decisions just as the people of the prince to come in Dan 9 would refer to the soldiers under Titus.

This concept is further supported by the questions and conversation of Pilate who asked 'you are a king then'? To which Jesus replied, It is as you say, but As of now, my kingdom is not of "HENCE". Hence means in the midst, or of the place and seat of Pilates Roman authority. This implied that there would be a time when the kingdom would be through the seat of Roman authority.. and it was throuigh titus and the minds of the leaders of the enemies of the rebellious judaists through whom Christ came in power and glory. It was his REVELATION as king of kings; Lord of Lords, fulfilling prophecies from the old covenant law and the prophets.

Christs' prophecies in the Olivet were confirming proof of his being he same entity to have made the prophecies through Moses and Daniel which talked not about the end of the world (which the creator called "GOOD") but about the END of the conditional national covenant of national Israel based on performance in keeping a 'law' and not based on justification by faith, nor based on Mercy.

The judgment that sat as described in Dan 7:26,27 is the judgment that SAT (it was decisively made and rested) and favored the saints of the unconditional covenant of Mercy through faith and not those who persisted in the conditional performance covenant. The timing of the seating of this judgment was after the beast (nero, judaism and humanism) made war with the saints for 3 1/2 yrs before favor was given to them who remained faithful to His words and voice.

That the kingdom of Life, Mercy, etc has been established in Power was evident by the power of God in working in the minds of those leaders of the Romans AND by His confusing the minds of those Jews who did not hear that prophet. (Is 65,66) The creator also used even the storms of the seas to drive some of the ships of the Jews of the meditereanan back into the rocks while they were trying to get away from the Roman soldiers. It was the time of "The REVELATION" of who Jesus Christ on earth was.

One other note to mention is that in Matts Olivet discourse record, there are several times that the phrase "and then" is used. I think they all refer to the time which the believers in Christs words were to watch for as they prepared to escape. This would have been before the actual seige of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple which was the primary focus of the disciples question. "And then" does not mean 'and afterwards' but tit means 'at that time'. This in my mind would be another mild example of Hebrew parallellism in which the 'and thens' would all be referring to the similar time with other events preceeding and leading up to that time and some events afterwards. (this info for extra credit)



Hope this helps and aids your seach for truth and thanks for seeking to understand the so called 'preterist' perspective.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

*snip*
I've come to a 'consistent preterist' perspective after about a 4 yr journey through researching the political/socialist beginnings of dispensationalism, (the modern version) and then by request of the H.S. and through researching historical data moslty on historist and preterist sites, but much also by using blue letter bible to research greek words and their meanings.......................

Thank you for your post and vote.

It seems I saw a thread on the Eschatology board awhile back with that title, and had not heard of it until that thread. Do you remember it by any chance? Thanks

 

[Evergreen48]

Yeah, but do you mean it, or just having fun?

I really meant it. I am a full preterist.

 

[Evergreen48]

Thank you for your vote.

How did you arrive at that view? Thanks

I couldn't point to any one thing in particular scripture wise which led me to have the preterist view. I arrived at it from just general study of both the Old Testament and the New. But there is one passage of scriptures which always comes to mind when I am questioned about my view:


Matthew 5: 17. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

So, if Matthew 24 has not been fulfilled, then the old covenant law which was only between God and the literal Israelites, and did not include us Gentiles, still prevails.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I couldn't point to any one thing in particular scripture wise which led me to have the preterist view. I arrived at it from just general study of both the Old Testament and the New. But there is one passage of scriptures which always comes to mind when I am questioned about my view:


Matthew 5: 17. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

So, if Matthew 24 has not been fulfilled, then the old covenant law which was only between God and the literal Israelites, and did not include us Gentiles, still prevails.

Thank you for that clarification and I agree.

If the Jews have to wait for the Olivet Discourse, Armegeddon and Gog-Magog to be fulfilled before they are not on the Mosaic Law, I would say they have a very loooong wait, on top of the almost 2000yrs that has passed since Jesus made this Prophecy. Thoughts?

Matthew 5:18 "For amen I am saying to ye, till ever may-be-passing-away/parelqh <3928> (5632) the Heaven and the Land, tittle/iota one or one jot/horn not no may-be-passing-away/parelqh <3928> (5632) from the Law, till ever all shall-be-becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638) [Reve 16:17/21:6]

Reve 20:1 And I saw a Heaven new and a Land new, for the first heaven and the first land *pass away/parhlqen <3928> (5627) and the sea not is still.