How many seals have been opened?

[interpreter]

I believe revelation is all on Israel and Jerusalem anyway, so whatever happens, I will just be watching it on cable. But first, don't the jews have to build a temple for it to be destroyed again?

No way. Jesus came to put an end to animal sacrifices and there's no way he would let it start up again. This faulty view (that the temple must be rebuilt) is based on a faulty translation/interpretation of Daniel.

Barry

 

[icedtea]

I wouldn't say its faulty. Cite?

 

[lecoop]

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." -Rev. 6:7-8

Do you seriously believe that the Seals have been opened? Look closely at the fourth seal. When the fourth seal is opened, the angel says "Come and See" (v. 7)

Looking at verse 8 we see that the pale horse comes forth, this rider is death, and notice very closely what comes with death. Hell! When in the course of human history has death and hell ever been released? And not only that, but looking even more closely at verse 8 we see that death was given power to kill a quarter of the worlds population by either the sword, hunger, outright death, or to be killed by wild beasts. (v. 8)

At no time in human history has this event ever taken place! At no time in human history has a quarter of the world's population died at one time! Therefore it has to be a future event! No my misguided friends, the opening of the seals has not happened yet. But I will say that it has to awful close. Now that is just my opinion. I see no reason to believe that any of the seals has been opened yet.

DeaconDean, I don't want to fault your reading ability, but perhaps you just read over this too quickly. Let's look at a verse where a percentage of the world's population is killed, and then compare.

Rev 9
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.

We can read plainly that 1/3 of the world's population is killed, unless perhaps it is just 1/3 of the male population. I am sure it means total population. Now, let's compare this with our verse in question.

Rev 6
8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Now let's read closely here: do we read that a percentage of the population is killed as in the previous verse, or do we read something else? I clearly read that their power was limited to 1/4 of the earth. There is no mention at all of how many they will kill. If they killed only one person, this verse would be true. If they killed a million, this verse would be true.

As I said before, if we look back over history we see that these things have happened continually over just my lifetime, and is still happening!

The Bubonic plague or "black death" left nearly 1/3 of the European population dead. "Ashes ashes, we all fall down!" Then a flu epidemic repeated this disaster. Untold millions in Africa have starved to death, even in my lifetime. If these things happened again and again, as they have, then the accumulated deaths could be more than 1/4th.

Therefore, yes, I "seriously believe that the Seals have been opened!" It is hard to get around the verses that show when Jesus got the scroll into his hands.

I can agree with you that the world has never seen an earthquake as we read about in the sixth seal. That is surely yet to come.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

DeaconDean (no relation); you are absolutely correct. People fail to see that. It will be unmistakable when they are opened.

Please go back and read it once more! He was in error!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The "2 witnesses" are taken up at or around the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Is this going to be an event everyone will see? And are they here now or is this still future?

Reve 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

I disagree. I believe they show up about that time, for that is when John is introduced to them. When did the two witnesses show up in Abraham's day? Just before Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. I think this is in agreement then with the two witnesses showing up just before the time of great tribulation. However, once John is introduced to them (as the vision came to him), he took their story on to the end, when they were taken up.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The Jewish calendar is about 360 days. If you take the 70th week of Daniel and apply it to the tribulation period of Revelation, you'll see that the 7 years would equal out to about 2,520 days. Divide that by the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowl judgments, you would come up with the number of 120. Each of the seals, trumpets, and bowls will last about 120 days. So if the fourth seal has been opened, then death and hell would have ruled supreme for about 120 days. A quarter of the worlds population would have died in a time space of about 120 days. When did this happen?

That's where we disagree. You are trying to cram the seals, trumpets and vials into the 70th week, when it is the 7th seal that opens the week. All we need to fit into the week are the trumpets in the first half, and the vials in the second half. It is written that one trumpet takes 5 months, so let's suppose that each of them take 5 months, and that there is a one month reprieve before the next. That would make each trumpet be about 6 months in duration. We start the week with the seventh seal, and it lasts 5 months plus one month reprieve. The the first trumpet lasts 5 months with one month reprieve. (6+6=12 months) Then the second trumpet takes 6 months. (12+6=18 months) Then the third trumpet takes 6 months (18+6=24 months). Then the 4th trumpet takes 6 months (24+6=30 months). Then the 5th trumpet takes 6 months (30+6=36 months). Then the 6th trumpet takes 6 months (36+6=42 months). We are exactly on target to mark the exact midpoint with the seventh trumpet. However, since we are only given the exact duration for one of the trumpets, this is just guess work. It does seem to fit. Then the same scenario fits for the vials.

This leaves the seals out of the 70th week, which is what the word shows us. For example, notice that John does not get to the 7th seal, (which opens the week) right after the 6th, but goes into an intermission first. Why is this? Because the sealing MUST take place before the week can get started and the trumpets start killing people. Then notice that at the 6th seal, the kings of the earth say that it is time for the wrath of God to be poured out.

We can see that the midpoint of the week must be close to all the mentions of 3 1/2 years, for if something started at the beginning and ended at the midpoint, it would take 3 1/2 years. Likewise, if something started at the midpoint and ended at the end: another 3 1/2 years. Therefore, when we find mention of the time frame of 3 1/2 years, or 1260 days, or 42 months, it must be very near the exact midpoint. In fact, there is one "real-time" event that takes place in the midst of these mentions of this 42 month period, and that is the 7th trumpet. I am sure that this trumpet is blown right at the midpoint.

With a proper reading of the 4th seal, we see that they do not kill a quarter of the earth's population at one time, and we do see that what they do had been happening all along. Therefore, it is my conclusion that the first seals were opened almost 2000 years ago, and we are now waiting on the 6th seal.

Sir Robert Anderson, the first man (that I know of) to correctly work out the first 62 weeks of Daniel's prophecy, (the 173,880 days) believed that the 5th seal was still to be opened, but that the first four had been opened in the past. (see his book, "The Coming Prince)

Coop

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I believe revelation is all on Israel and Jerusalem anyway, so whatever happens, I will just be watching it on cable. But first, don't the jews have to build a temple for it to be destroyed again?
The "2 witnesses" are taken up at or around the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Is this going to be an event everyone will see? And are they here now or is this still future?

Reve 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

reter]No way. Jesus came to put an end to animal sacrifices and there's no way he would let it start up again. This faulty view (that the temple must be rebuilt) is based on a faulty translation/interpretation of Daniel.Barry

Ummm. Then what is this showing in revelation

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[lecoop]

Re 11:1 Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words: "Go and measure God's sanctuary and the altar, and count those who worship there.

This measuring here in Chapter 11 is measuring the temple mentioned in Daniel:

Dan 9:26 ...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

We see from Daniel that there must be a temple built that the beast or antichrist will desecrate, as he stands in the holy place and claims that he is god. John was given a reed to measure this "70th week" temple.

Re 11:2 But exclude the courtyard outside the sanctuary. Don't measure it, because it is given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

This 42 months is in agreement with the 42 months that the beast will have authority:

Rev 13:5 ...and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

This will be the last half of the 70th week. Gentiles will tread the courtyard but apparently, the beast alone will control the temple itself.

Re 21:15 The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, its gates, and its wall.


What is being measured?

Re 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea existed no longer. 2 I also saw the Holy City, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to the thirsty from the spring of living water as a gift. 7 The victor will inherit these things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

This is measuring the new Jerusalem! It is not the temple of Revelation 11. The new Jerusalem will not come down until after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. I just thought I would make this point clear.


How does Babylon fit here?

Re 21:8 But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars--their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." (the spirit of babylon- those people from all the nations of the world that live in the flesh)

Actually, Babylon is destroyed at the end of the 70th week, and before the battle of Armageddon. Babylon is first the spirits of false religion around the world and those false religions themself, Islam being number 1! Then it is the merchandising done with the spirit of greed. (God is not against someone buying a loaf of bread). This is how I read it.


when does this take place?
--when Jesus returns
--the 1000 year millenium


Re 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself. 13 He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is called the Word of God. 14 The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.

Jesus returns very shortly after ("immediately after") the time of great tribulation, which ends almost simultaneously with the end of the 70th week. There may be a day or two for cosmic signs.

Re 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

Hallelujah!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

The Revelation does not all take place in 7 years but instead spans many centuries. Verse 1 and v. 3 both say the things in the Revelation would start unfolding "shortly" after the Revelation was penned. Your view is based on a faulty translation/interpretation of Daniel. IMO, the first half of the 70th week lasts 1260 years.

I think you have failed to see the number of scriptures that verify an actual 7 year period. There are two places in Daniel and five places in Revelation that have the last half of the 70th week as 3 1/2 years, 42 months, or 1260 days! So no matter how you count it, in days, months or years, it is a litteral time of 7 years. Why do you think the OT prophets called it "Jacob's trouble?" He would for 7 years for one wife (the wrong one) and then 7 more years for the next one.

However, you are correct in your view of Revelation. John does not get to the 70th week until the seventh seal, which is in chapter 8. However, I believe that the 6th seal will be just before the 70th week starts. The first seals were opened very soon after Jesus rose from the dead.

as I read it,
Coop

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Revelation does not all take place in 7 years but instead spans many centuries. Verse 1 and v. 3 both say the things in the Revelation would start unfolding "shortly" after the Revelation was penned. Your view is based on a faulty translation/interpretation of Daniel. IMO, the first half of the 70th week lasts 1260 years.

Please say you don't mean that!!!! Egads!!!!!

Revelation 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass in swiftness; [#5034]

(Young) Romans 16:20 and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet in swifness; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen!

 

[diana_ch]

Too much discussing... so when is it going to happen??

 

[interpreter]

Ummm. Then what is this showing in revelation

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

The two witnesses that John found worshipping in the temple of God are Christians and Jews. The Gentile nations that trample the Holy Spot are Muslims who have trampled it for 1260 years (42 months with 1 day = 1 year).

Barry

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ummm. Then what is this showing in revelation

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

The two witnesses that John found worshipping in the temple of God are Christians and Jews. The Gentile nations that trample the Holy Spot are Muslims who have trampled it for 1260 years (42 months with 1 day = 1 year).

Barry

Hmm, ok. They are of course Semites, just as the jews of Judaism are. All kinds of religions are in and around Jerusalem it seems. Thanks for that enlightening post. So what is Babylon representing?

 

[MbiaJc]

The sixith seal is not when Jesus returns, it is when Satan is revealed as the fake messiah, correct.

Yes and no! Yes to the first question and no to the second. The beast\ac is revealed after he makes peace in the world, and then comes to the temple of God, saying he is God. That when he is revealed as the false messiah.
Jesus doesn't come back for the Saints till the 7th Trumpet; Paul is very clear on this. At the end of the 6th Seal is when the 7th Trumpet blows. When the beast\ac kills the two witnesses and they are called up to heaven, shortly after that is when Jesus comes, at the 7th Trumpet.

 

[MbiaJc]

The two witnesses that John found worshipping in the temple of God are Christians and Jews. The Gentile nations that trample the Holy Spot are Muslims who have trampled it for 1260 years (42 months with 1 day = 1 year).

Barry

Thats false! That time has done cone and gone.

 

[MbiaJc]

Too much discussing... so when is it going to happen??

When God gets ready for it to happen!

 

[inhisdebt]

All the seals have been opened, however its important to note that a seal is a resraint used to prevent gods spoken word from happening. ( this is because the words were spoken back in the time of danial, & ezekial but it remained sealed until christ acomplished salvation for us at the cross and was thus worthy to open the seals. the first five seals have occured and we are currently awaiting the events of the 6th seal to begin. Any premillinial post tribers out there or am i alone here

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Actually, Babylon is destroyed at the end of the 70th week, and before the battle of Armageddon. Babylon is first the spirits of false religion around the world and those false religions themself, Islam being number 1! Then it is the merchandising done with the spirit of greed. (God is not against someone buying a loaf of bread). This is how I read it.

All the seals have been opened, however its important to note that a seal is a resraint used to prevent gods spoken word from happening. ( this is because the words were spoken back in the time of danial, & ezekial but it remained sealed until christ acomplished salvation for us at the cross and was thus worthy to open the seals. the first five seals have occured and we are currently awaiting the events of the 6th seal to begin.

All I want to know is, do the seals, trumpets and wraths all come after the jews build their temple or do some events occur before it is built? At what point in revelation do others see the temple being built? Thanks.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a Wilderness;

 

[inhisdebt]

All I want to know is, do the seals, trumpets and wraths all come after the jews build their temple or do some events occur before it is built? At what point in revelation do others see the temple being built? Thanks.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a Wilderness;

The seals lead up to the end times from the crucifiction till the day of the lord, the fith seal represents the marterdom of the saints, that started with steven and continues intil the day of the lord, the sixth seal starts the day of the lord, with the events in the heavens, sun&moon, etc and the day of the lord is finished with the 7th seal and all 7trumps are initiated then as God pours out his wrath on the day of the lord, and raptures us to him with the 7th trump, satin is cast out of heaven 3 1/2 years previose to this. there may very well be no discernable events previose to this 3 1/2 year period were the two witnesses and the false prophet battle over the souls of the earth leading up to the day of the lord. there are however several indicaters that times may be very close. World war in iran, iraq, and isreal plays a dominant role in these times, as well as open unrepentant homosexuality, and the overt sexualisation that seems to dominate the public eye, the eminant domain issues, legal removal of God from the public eye, and the large natural disastersas well. All of these are shown scripturally to be events of those end times. I recomend reading the old testiment prophacies from Isaiah to micah, this is were most of the visual info can be found, but be careful they are mixed in with a lot of completed prophacies. The temple may not have to be rebuilt for all these to take place. The role of the temple seems to dominate the thoughts of many in this study, and there is much debate over its role, however i would focus on the international events and events in jerusalam . The two witnesses are located in jerusalam not nessessarily the temple mount. The abomination of desolation was complete in 70 AD and thus danials 70th week completed the times of the jews.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

All I want to know is, do the seals, trumpets and wraths all come after the jews build their temple or do some events occur before it is built? At what point in revelation do others see the temple being built? Thanks.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a Wilderness;

The temple may not have to be rebuilt for all these to take place. The role of the temple seems to dominate the thoughts of many in this study, and there is much debate over its role, however i would focus on the international events and events in jerusalam . The two witnesses are located in jerusalam not nessessarily the temple mount. The abomination of desolation was complete in 70 AD and thus danials 70th week completed the times of the jews.

Ok. Gotcha. Thanks.