How many seals have been opened?

[icedtea]

I read somewhere the New Jerusalem will hover over the earthly Jerusalem.
Whatever, it will exist.

 

[cavymom]

Hi Cavy. Jesus's Name is already there!!!
All that scripture you put up in post #59 is all well and good, but it doesn't help other christians identify the "babylon" in revelation where a temple of God and worshippers are being measured. Mind giving us your view?

Babylon appears to be a type of "False earthly Jerusalem" maybe.?

Babylon from the beginning has always been a MAN-centered view. There is an evil spirit of babylon. The spirit of babylon is living by the flesh instead of living by God's Holy Spirit.

Babylon's friends took part in her sinful pleasures and profits, but are not willing to share her plagues. The spirit of antichrist is a worldly spirit, and that sorrow is a mere worldly sorrow; they do not lament for the anger of God, but for the loss of outward comforts. What characterises her, that for which she is judged, is idolatry, corruption, worldliness, and persecution.

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Genesis [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11:4 And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the sky. Let us make a name for ourselves; otherwise, we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth." [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]2 Peter 2:14 having eyes full of adultery and always looking for sin, seducing unstable people, and with hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! 15 By abandoning the straight path, they have gone astray and have followed the path of Balaam, the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness, [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Revelation 16:17 Then the seventh poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the sanctuary, from the throne, saying, "It is done!" 18 There were lightnings, rumblings, and thunders. And a severe earthquake occurred like no other since man has been on the earth--so great was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the Great was remembered in God's presence; He gave her the cup filled with the wine of His fierce anger. 20 Every island fled, and the mountains disappeared. 21 Enormous hailstones, each weighing about 100 pounds, fell from heaven on the people, and they blasphemed God for the plague of hail because that plague was extremely severe.

Revelation 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me: "Come, I will show you the judgment of the notorious prostitute who sits on many waters. 2 The kings of the earth committed sexual immorality with her, and those who live on the earth became drunk on the wine of her sexual immorality."
15 He also said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute was seated, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.
18 And the woman you saw is the great city that has an empire over the kings of the earth."

Revelation 18:3 For all the nations have drunk the wine of her sexual immorality, which brings wrath. The kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown wealthy from her excessive luxury.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity,20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance--as I told you before--that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God[/FONT]

 

[cavymom]

Hi Cavy. Jesus's Name is already there!!
All that scripture you put up in post #59 is all well and good, but it doesn't help other christians identify the "babylon" in revelation where a temple of God and worshippers are being measured. Mind giving us your view?

Re 11:1 Then I was given a measuring reed like a rod, with these words: "Go and measure God's sanctuary and the altar, and count those who worship there.

Re 11:2 But exclude the courtyard outside the sanctuary. Don't measure it, because it is given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for 42 months.

Re 21:15 The one who spoke with me had a gold measuring rod to measure the city, its gates, and its wall.


What is being measured?

Re 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea existed no longer. 2 I also saw the Holy City, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband. 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to the thirsty from the spring of living water as a gift. 7 The victor will inherit these things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.


How does Babylon fit here?

Re 21:8 But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars--their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." (the spirit of babylon- those people from all the nations of the world that live in the flesh)


when does this take place?
--when Jesus returns
--the 1000 year millenium


Re 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse! Its rider is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a fiery flame, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knows except Himself. 13 He wore a robe stained with blood, and His name is called the Word of God. 14 The armies that were in heaven followed Him on white horses, wearing pure white linen.


Re 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You are saying it is the whole world ?

The way it looks, it appears to involve Jerusalem and Israel only [note DANIEL 12/ Ezekiel 38/39]. But I could be mistaken.

reve 11 does show a temple of God and worshippers being measured, and I always assume those were of the Jewish Priesthood. At least according to the OT and NT. At least it makes more sense than George Washingon!!!! Thoughts?

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arising!! and Measure Ye!! the Sanctuary/Temple of God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Romans 16:20 and the God of the peace shall bruise the Adversary under your feet in swifness [#5034]; the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you. Amen!

Who the My People shown in revelation? And who are the only ones that can enter the Sanctuary of God being measured in Chapter? This is the fulfillment of Daniel 12 on the Jewish Nation, so where is the 1000yr period after Daniel 12 and the Resurrection? Thanks.

Babylon appears to be a type of "False earthly Jerusalem" maybe.?

Hebrew 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [who are] registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than [that of] Abel.

Btw, the OLD SANCTUARY and Temple is kind of Desolate today isn't it? So it couldn't have been very "Eternal".

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a WILDERNESS;

Reve 18:9 " The kings of the earth/land who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 "standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.' 18 "and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What [is] like this great city?' 19 "They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.'

Lamentations 2:1 How the Lord has covered the daughter of Zion With a cloud in His anger! He cast down from heaven to the earthThe beauty of Israel, And did not remember His footstool In the day of His anger.

Ezra 3: 12 But many of the priests and Levites and heads of the fathers' [houses,] old men who had seen the First Temple, wept with a loud voice when the foundation of this temple was laid before their eyes. Yet many shouted aloud for joy, 13 so that the people could not discern the noise of the shout of Joy from the noise of the Weeping of the people, for the people shouted with a loud shout, and the sound was heard afar off.

 

[icedtea]

People speculate that Babylon is either Iraq (whereit is) or New York. Its a physical place, for sure.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If revelation is on the whole World, where will people "flee" to to come "out of her"?

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, My People, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

Luke 21:21 "Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

I read somewhere the New Jerusalem will hover over the earthly Jerusalem.

Whatever, it will exist.
People speculate that Babylon is either Iraq (whereit is) or New York. Its a physical place, for sure.

Could be. Interesting view and it appears "Biblical". Thanks.

Gala 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar -- 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children -- 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the Mother of us all.

It appears to be a Great City in a Country. Note reve 11 mentions both a "city" and a "country". Thoughts?

Reve 11:8 And their dead bodies [will lie] in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Deut 28:68 "And the LORD will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, 'You shall never see it again.' And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy [you."]

 

[icedtea]

Good food for thought here, Lamb!

 

[lecoop]

We have had a lot of answers, but I did not see any that I agreed with.

We are waiting on the sixth seal. Seals 1-5 have been opened. Please read my proof texts here:

How many things that are written in the Revelations have come to pass?

The seventh seal starts the 70th week
The seventh trumpet marks the exact midpoint
The seventh vial finishes the week.

After the week is closed, very soon after, Jesus returns.

Comments?

Coop

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We have had a lot of answers, but I did not see any that I agreed with.
Coop

 

[DeaconDean]

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." -Rev. 6:7-8

Do you seriously believe that the Seals have been opened? Look closely at the fourth seal. When the fourth seal is opened, the angel says "Come and See" (v. 7)

Looking at verse 8 we see that the pale horse comes forth, this rider is death, and notice very closely what comes with death. Hell! When in the course of human history has death and hell ever been released? And not only that, but looking even more closely at verse 8 we see that death was given power to kill a quarter of the worlds population by either the sword, hunger, outright death, or to be killed by wild beasts. (v. 8)

At no time in human history has this event ever taken place! At no time in human history has a quarter of the world's population died at one time! Therefore it has to be a future event! No my misguided friends, the opening of the seals has not happened yet. But I will say that it has to awful close. Now that is just my opinion. I see no reason to believe that any of the seals has been opened yet.

 

[icedtea]

DeaconDean (no relation); you are absolutely correct. People fail to see that. It will be unmistakable when they are opened.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

At no time in human history has this event ever taken place! At no time in human history has a quarter of the world's population died at one time! Therefore it has to be a future event! No my misguided friends, the opening of the seals has not happened yet. But I will say that it has to awful close. Now that is just my opinion. I see no reason to believe that any of the seals has been opened yet.

So what does that say about some that feel all the seals/trumpets have been opened/sounded or some of them? Is that heretical? It can't be some, most or none!!!!.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2794017-how-many-things-that-are-written-in-the-revelations-have-come-to-pass.html

 

[icedtea]

Its illogical and wrong, but I wouldn't say heretical.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So what does that say about some that feel all the seals/trumpets have been opened/sounded or some of them? Is that heretical? It can't be some, most or none!!!!.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2794...e-to-pass.html

http://www.christianforums.com/t279...ten-in-the-revelations-have-come-to-pass.html

Its illogical and wrong, but I wouldn't say heretical.

The "2 witnesses" are taken up at or around the sounding of the 7th trumpet. Is this going to be an event everyone will see? And are they here now or is this still future?

Reve 11:11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them.

 

[icedtea]

Still future. And couldn't have happened before television.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Still future. And couldn't have happened before television.

So we know the 4th seal is not GW.
post #51

The 4th horseman appears to be George Washington and his sucessors, i.e, the USA. He rode a pale horse, and the US conquers with death, including nuclear bombs. The three historical capitals of the US, New York City, Philadelphia and Washington DC are pointed to by the starguide of ch. 1

Around 2014
We are already in the time of the beginning of sorrows and the third seal of Revelation?

Check what Daniel 11:14-21 has in it?

the robbers - the Palestinians

 

[DeaconDean]

The Jewish calendar is about 360 days. If you take the 70th week of Daniel and apply it to the tribulation period of Revelation, you'll see that the 7 years would equal out to about 2,520 days. Divide that by the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowl judgments, you would come up with the number of 120. Each of the seals, trumpets, and bowls will last about 120 days. So if the fourth seal has been opened, then death and hell would have ruled supreme for about 120 days. A quarter of the worlds population would have died in a time space of about 120 days. When did this happen?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

So if the fourth seal has been opened, then death and hell would have ruled supreme for about 120 days. A quarter of the worlds population would have died in a time space of about 120 days. When did this happen?

Hmm. Oh well. I believe revelation is on Israel and Jerusalem anyway, so whatever happens, I will just be watching it on cable. But first, don't the jews have to build a temple? The jews are hamstring with that Gold Dome and they don't even know how they want to build it yet.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The 4th horseman appears to be George Washington and his sucessors, i.e, the USA. He rode a pale horse, and the US conquers with death, including nuclear bombs. The three historical capitals of the US, New York City, Philadelphia and Washington DC are pointed to by the starguide of ch. 1

So if the fourth seal has been opened, then death and hell would have ruled supreme for about 120 days. A quarter of the worlds population would have died in a time space of about 120 days. When did this happen?

You will have to ask the historicist who brought up GW.

I believe revelation is all on Israel and Jerusalem anyway, so whatever happens, I will just be watching it on cable. But first, don't the jews have to build a temple for it to be destroyed again?

Matt 23:38 "See! Your House is left to you a Wilderness;

1 Peter 4:7 But the Endof ALL things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers.

Revelation 11:1:And given to me a reed like unto [a] staff saying: Be Ye Arousing!!!!! and Measure Ye!!!!! the Sanctuary/Temple of the God, and the Altar and the Ones worshipping in it/him ! 2 And the Court [#833], the one within[#2081] the Sanctuary/Temple [#3485] be Casting Out!!!!! [#1544] Out-side [#1854] and ye should not be measuring it/her, because she was given to the nations/gentiles, and the city, the holy, they shall be treading [#3961] for 40 and 2 months.

 

[interpreter]

The Jewish calendar is about 360 days. If you take the 70th week of Daniel and apply it to the tribulation period of Revelation, you'll see that the 7 years would equal out to about 2,520 days. Divide that by the 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and the 7 bowl judgments, you would come up with the number of 120. Each of the seals, trumpets, and bowls will last about 120 days. So if the fourth seal has been opened, then death and hell would have ruled supreme for about 120 days. A quarter of the worlds population would have died in a time space of about 120 days. When did this happen?

The Revelation does not all take place in 7 years but instead spans many centuries. Verse 1 and v. 3 both say the things in the Revelation would start unfolding "shortly" after the Revelation was penned. Your view is based on a faulty translation/interpretation of Daniel. IMO, the first half of the 70th week lasts 1260 years.