How Many Mediators?

[BreadAlone]

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

 

[Gary51]

Thankfully I already beat you to it. From looking at the Bible, I fail to see how you have demonstrated your point. Please demonstrate how you are more "right" than we are.

The result of the Poll tells me nothing. If you are assuming it somehow validates your position, two points must be made - first, that would be an argumentam ad populam fallacy on your part, and second, out of the 2.1 billion Christians, only 28 have voted here. Hardly a representative figure.

If the result of the poll tells you nothing... then you will probably accept nothing.

As for my position... think of Luther.

 

[Technocrat2010]

If the result of the poll tells you nothing... then you will probably accept nothing.

As for my position... think of Luther.

I don't think you're in a position to tell me what I probably will do or won't do - unless you're using that as an excuse to avoid backing up your argument.

Again, I do believe you are fully aware of the fallacy of appealing to the popularity. By that argument I've already won this debate, as I have 1.1 billion Catholics, 350 million Eastern Orthodox Christians, at least 36 million Oriental Orthodox Christians, 3.3 million members of the Assyrian Church of the East and 77 million Anglicans on my side. That amounts to a total of roughly 1.5663 billion Christians in favor of the intercession/mediation of the saints, which is about 74.59% of all Christianity, assuming that there are 2.1 billion Christians total. If you want to use the popular argument, you've already lost.

But that doesn't mean we are right, simply because we outnumber you.

So upon what scriptures do you believe you are right in denying the intercession/mediation of the saints?

As for your position... "think of Luther", huh? Am I correct to assume you affirm the necessity of water baptism, a strong stance against birth control, belief in Mary's perpetual Virginity and view of her as the "spiritual Mother" of all Christians - as Martin Luther did? Because that is what you are implying.

 

[Technocrat2010]

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

1 Timothy 2:1-4 -

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

 

[BreadAlone]

1 Timothy 2:1-4 -

First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

Praying for someone is different then having to mediate for them.

 

[Technocrat2010]

Praying for someone is different then having to mediate for them.

What's the difference? Is not praying for someone mediating on their behalf?

 

[Gareth]

One. Jesus Christ. "No one comes to the Father but through Me."

Not even Mary or the saints?

 

[david01]

Not even Mary or the saints?

Not even Mohammed, Buddha, or any other holy person. Christians have exactly one more mediator than Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, atheists, agnostcs, et. al.

 

[JoabAnias]

Not even Mohammed, Buddha, or any other holy person. Christians have exactly one more mediator than Humlims, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, atheists, agnostcs, et. al.

Here is the Catholic teaching and thus the fullness of the terminology:

MEDIATOR

A title of Christ as the one who reconciled God and the human race. It is based on the teaching of St. Paul, that "there is only one god, and there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus, who sacrificed Himself as a ransom for them all" (I Timothy 2:5-6). Christ is best qualified to be the mediator, i.e., one who brings estranged parties to agreement. As God, he was the one with whom the human race was to be reconciled; as a human being, he represented the ones who needed reconciliation. Christ continues his work of mediation, no longer to merit the grace of human forgiveness, but to communicate the grace already won on the Cross.

Moreover, others than Christ may also be called mediators in a totally secondary sense, "in that they co-operate in our reconciliation; disposing and ministering to men's union with God" (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III, 48, 1). In fact every person, insofar as he or she co-operates with divine grace, is a kind of mediator between himself or herself and God. (Etym. Latin mediator, from mediare, to stand or divide in the middle.)

Mediator (Christ As Mediator)

Intercession (Mediation)

SUMMA THEOLOGICA: Christ as called the mediator of God and man ...

Mediator Dei
Encyclical on the Sacred Liturgy
His Holiness Pope Pius XII
Promulgated on November 20, 1947

 

[mont974x4]

Here is the Catholic teaching and thus the fullness of the terminology:

that made me laugh

"It's the truth because my church says so."

There is certainly a call for us to intercede on behalf of others, this is proven by biblical examples. However, calling anyone other than Christ mediator is misleading at best and idolotry or necromancy at worst.

 

[JoabAnias]

Praying for someone is different then having to mediate for them.

In Christianity prayer can and often does mean the same thing as asking and interceeding. There is never a question of having to. The motivation to do so is of Love.

PRAYER

The voluntary response to the awareness of God's presence. This response may be an acknowledgment of God's greatness and of a person's total dependence on him (adoration), or gratitude for his benefits to oneself and others (thanksgiving), or sorrow for sins committed and begging for mercy (expiation), or asking for graces needed (petition), or affection for God, who is all good (love).

[This means that prayers of petition can be made for someone other than ones self which are in effect intercessory and mediative.]

INTERCESSION

Entreaty in favor of another person; hence mediation. In biblical language, "there is only one mediator between God and mankind, himself a man, Christ Jesus, who sacrificed himself as a ransom for them all" (I Timothy 2:5-6). The Blessed Virgin, Mediatrix of all graces, the angels, saints in heaven, souls in purgatory, and the faithful on earth intercede for mankind by their merits and prayers.

 

[JoabAnias]

that made me laugh

"It's the truth because my church says so."

There is certainly a call for us to intercede on behalf of others, this is proven by biblical examples. However, calling anyone other than Christ mediator is misleading at best and idolotry or necromancy at worst.

When did you take me off ignore? But I digress,.. so as to answer;

Well actually not because the Church says so per se but because its a Biblical practice and inline with the common definition of the terminology.

Are you saying if I do so as Christians have done since the beginning I am an idolator or necromancer?

Do you seek to change the definition of what it means to pray, intercede or mediate?

Was the chuckle you got in a spirit of Christian charity?

Glad you could laugh about it. Levity is good and healthy imho (unless its sinister laughter of course) so.... Your welcome.?

Unless your willing to address the sources anything else said is really superfluous and irrelevant so you may want to put me on ignore again bro.

 

[mont974x4]

No I did not take you off ignore. The system did when you became staff.

I was laughing at your logic, well more at the typical rc logic. It wasn't sinister, it was an honest chuckle.

The fact is, just because your denomination claims something...or any denomination for that..doesn't make it automatically the truth. It just happens that your denomination is the one who most often claims to have the "fullness" of said truth, regardless of what Scripture actually says.

As to the issue at hand..live saints praying to God interceding on behalf of living people has plenty of biblical examples, Job comes readily to mind. The living talking ot, or praying to, the dead has no examples.

Isn't fair, and certainly to be expected, that idolotry and necromancy be honest concerns when looking at how many people treat the dead?

 

[JoabAnias]

No I did not take you off ignore. The system did when you became staff.

I was laughing at your logic, well more at the typical rc logic. It wasn't sinister, it was an honest chuckle.

The fact is, just because your denomination claims something...or any denomination for that..doesn't make it automatically the truth. It just happens that your denomination is the one who most often claims to have the "fullness" of said truth, regardless of what Scripture actually says.

As to the issue at hand..live saints praying to God interceding on behalf of living people has plenty of biblical examples, Job comes readily to mind. The living talking ot, or praying to, the dead has no examples.

Isn't fair, and certainly to be expected, that idolotry and necromancy be honest concerns when looking at how many people treat the dead?

Well fair enough and to be honest, I didn't realize at first what forum I was in or wouldn't have replied that way. I thought I was in the Catholic forum and was providing Catholic teaching because it was being sought. Sry about that. Didn't mean to be pushing Catholic teaching on you.

Nevertheless though the historical basis of the definitions of the words aforementioned (i.e.: prayer, mediation and intercession) and the historical praxis of Christendom itself really speaks for itself when objectively examining the fact that prayer has always been intercessory and thus a sense of mediation.

This in no way is with any intent either direct or indirect to take away from our Lords status as one true mediator between us and our Father nor has it ever been.

That should treat the concern of idolatry and dispell that misconception entirely.

As far as the one on necromancy; Its entirely Biblical also to pray to (mediate/intercede) God for those already dead in the flesh whose souls have gone on before us. One only has to look to the literal interpretations of Holy and Sacred Scripture and to ancient apostolic tradition to see that as well. You see we do not consider those who have gone before us to heaven in Christ to be dead in spirit but only in the flesh. Those dead in spirit would not be with Christ at all. So once again there is a misconception over the definition and terminology purported by Jesus and the Scriptures themselves when they speak of who is dead and who isn't.

Christians from the earliest centuries of the Church have expressed their communion with those who have died by praying for the dead.

Inscriptions in the Roman catacombs indicate that the early Christians honored and prayed for their deceased relatives and friends. (see picture below) Tertullian (211) Wrote that Christians offered prayer and the Eucharist for the deceased on the anniversaries of their death. St. Augustine (354 - 430) Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church, which even now is the Kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ.
It is not uncommon that non-believers [and some non-Catholics] see the Roman Catholic devotion to the Saints and the dead in general as falling under the prohibition of necrology as found in the Hebrew Scriptures.

These people are not aware of the New Life of the Christian who has been called out of this life. They are not dead, but alive! [In Christ] Rom 6:3-4 Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. [Through Jesus who makes all things new we are made new and very much alive with Him in heaven] Col 2:12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
The early Christians, in praying for their dead were expressing their belief that departed brothers and sisters underwent a purification after death ("purgatory"). Their prayers were prayers that God would have mercy on them during this time of healing and purification.

Many people who do not share the Catholic Christian faith life have difficulty with the appearance that in their prayers, Catholics appear to pray to the Saints, to Mary, as one prays to God. This "praying to" appears to them to indicate a worship of the Saint as if giving to the Saint or Mary what is due to God alone.

However, earliest Christianity have always defined prayer as conversation, as in conversation with God.

Conversation, as any other act of communication ( e.g., talking, conversation, yelling, etc.), requires a sign of the direction of the communication: one talks to someone, communicates with someone, prays to someone, converses with someone, yells at someone, etc. Hence, praying to God, a Saint, the Virgin Mary indicates simply the direction of prayer communication.

It is more a matter of grammar and understanding communication than acknowledging the worship of the receiver.
From the earliest of Church Councils (the Council of Rome, 993; defined by the Council of Trent) the distinction was made between worship and honor.

Catholics believe that worship is due to God alone.

Catholics honor those saints who have gone before us as a sign of faith and victory in living the Christian life.
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap070600.htm

More info on my beliefs for anyone interested:
Praying to the Saints
The Intercession of the Saints
THE SAINTS

Prayer of intercession for the repose of the soul of a deceased individual as found in the catacombs from the first centuries of the Christian faith:

Peace.

 

[JoabAnias]

The fact is, just because your denomination claims something...or any denomination for that..doesn't make it automatically the truth. It just happens that your denomination is the one who most often claims to have the "fullness" of said truth, regardless of what Scripture actually says.

Mont let me ask;

Do you have a pastor?

Do you have an understanding of the science of hermeneutics?

 

[mont974x4]

yes and yes


And yes, I do test what he says against Scripture. In fact, we usually talk once a week. We keep each other in check, as he sits in a couple of classes I teach (when his schedule allows).


The vatican does not have biblical support for praying to the dead, in fact the Bible goes in the opposite direction. What you have is propaganda and the "it's true because the church says its true" argument.

 

[JoabAnias]

yes and yes


And yes, I do test what he says against Scripture. In fact, we usually talk once a week. We keep each other in check, as he sits in a couple of classes I teach (when his schedule allows).


The vatican does not have biblical support for praying to the dead, in fact the Bible goes in the opposite direction. What you have is propaganda and the "it's true because the church says its true" argument.

Yup I understand the differenses well.

I believe there is plenty of Biblical support for praying to those alive in Christ as they are not dead at all.

I will just let some links answer for me and then no one has to look if they don't want to:

The Communion of Saints
(Link to Graphics Version of this chapter)

• A Biblical Portrait of Saint
• The Canon of Holiness
• The Role of the Saints
• The Intercession of the Saints
  • How Do Saints Hear Us?
• The Canonization of Saints
  • The Current Canonization Process
  • The Biblical Description of Miracles
• Images and Relics of the Saints
  • The Incorruptibles
• Praying to the Saints / Praying for the Dead

 

[mont974x4]

I'm well aware of the proaganda rc's like to post, I'll pass thanks. I am also aware of the verses used to support the unbiblical ideals. The practice only works by twisting Scripture and redefining words. The preferance is to lessen, and ignore, what Scripture actually says in favor of your denominations pet doctrines.

Unsubscribing as I have said my piece and I'm tired of the usual merry go round.

 

[JoabAnias]

Unsubscribing as I have said my piece and I'm tired of the usual merry go round.

Thats the difference between understanding something and fighting Gods will.

Thank goodness real Shepherds cropped up in the 16th century to set ancient Christianity straight right?

2Pe 1:20 knowing this first, that every prophecy of Scripture did not come into being of its own interpretation;

Gal 1:8 But even if we, or an angel out of Heaven, should preach a gospel to you beside the gospel we preached to you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9 As we have said before, and now I say again, If anyone preaches a gospel beside what you received, let him be accursed.

What came first, what was recieved or what was re-interpreted?

No wonder its hard to hear the original truth before it got perverted and twisted. I suppose its always been this way since the Gnostics.

I am really sorry ancient and original theology as handed down to us is impossible for you to understand.

I wish I knew of a way I could make it easy for you but alas:

Gal 1:10 .... For if I yet pleased men, I would not be a slave of Christ.

Peace, if that be possible.

 

[david01]

Despite RCC propaganda to the contrary, the Protestant Reformation had everything to do with significant heresies and errors that were present in the RCC at that time and which had evolved over time as the ancient truths of the Bible had been reinterpreted and/or abandoned. The Protestant Reformers were hardly the first to call for reform in the RCC, and they were hardly the last, by any means.

Interestingly, the concept of Mary as Co-Mediatrix with Jesus Christ was virtually unknown at that time and is a much more recent departure in the RCC from scripture.