How Many Mediators?

[mont974x4]

There is a difference, esepecially from a biblical stand point. The Bible is clear that there is One mediator.

 

[JoabAnias]

There is a difference, esepecially from a biblical stand point. The Bible is clear that there is One mediator.

And its also clear that we are part of the living Saints in heaven and can also go directly to our Father, or Jesus correct? Doesn't Jesus teach us to pray to our Father directly? It seems that in the terms you have applied it, though rightly to acknowlege Jesus through whom brought us our redemption from the old covenant by opening heaven your actually missing the fact that Jesus tells us to go directly to the Father and Paul tells us to go to the Saints to ask them to go to the Father for us.

When I go to the Father directly I am always reminded by the Holy Spirit to offer Him the only perfection I know and that is Jesus. But sometimes I just go to Jesus first and ask Him to go to the Father for me because I cannot do it. There are also times when I feel the familial ties to the rest of heaven to go to Jesus and the Father as one big mob or to ask some great living Saint in heaven to help me with my cause before the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Peace.

 

[mont974x4]

No, the Bible says to pray only to the Father. When Christs teaches us how to pray He never tells us circumstances where we are to pray to anyone else.


The Bible also says to not talk to the dead. Saul tried that with Samuel and it did not go well for him.

 

[JoabAnias]

No, the Bible says to pray only to the Father. When Christs teaches us how to pray He never tells us circumstances where we are to pray to anyone else.


The Bible also says to not talk to the dead. Saul tried that with Samuel and it did not go well for him.

One Laaaast reply

So then according to your first reasoning were not even to pray to Jesus?

and on your second point; Before Jesus completed our redemption everyone who was dead was in the place of the dead. After this point those delivered into heaven are in the place of the living. If I had more time I would corroberate this with Scriptures from Saint Pauls epistles. As I am short I can reference this instead:

The Communion of Saints

and this

The Communion of Saints


Peace.

 

[mont974x4]

We pray in/with the Spirit, through the Son, to the Father.

When the Bible talks about prayer in this way it has the connotation of worship. Offering prayers to anyone else is akin to worshipping them, or at least rendering more honor to them than we should, and is wrong.

This is different than asking a living saint (fellow believer) to help bear your burdens. There is no call for doing the same with saints that have already finished their race. In fact, the account of Matthew 17 concerning Moses and Elijah being seen with Christ is yet another example that shows we are not to honor/venerate/whatever anyone else.

 

[Technocrat2010]

We pray in/with the Spirit, through the Son, to the Father.

When the Bible talks about prayer in this way it has the connotation of worship. Offering prayers to anyone else is akin to worshipping them, or at least rendering more honor to them than we should, and is wrong.

This is different than asking a living saint (fellow believer) to help bear your burdens. There is no call for doing the same with saints that have already finished their race. In fact, the account of Matthew 17 concerning Moses and Elijah being seen with Christ is yet another example that shows we are not to honor/venerate/whatever anyone else.

Actually, the account in Matthew 17 shows that there was no condemnation of the matter of Jesus calling upon Moses and Elijah. Please point out to me where the crowd condemned the action. (incidentally, Chasidic Jews still practice the prayers to their saints to this day)

Are you implying that there is a divide within the body of Christ? That the physical barrier between mortal humanity and Heaven still exists? As Ephesians 3 points out, we are ONE family, both in Heaven AND on Earth. As we see in Luke 20, God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead. How much more alive, then, are those saints that are with Him! Where does it say that asking the saints to intercede on our behalf is wrong?

Your definition of "prayer" fails to take into account that the definition of the word "prayer" is "to ask". When Paul asks Timothy to send petitions and prayers on the behalf of the various people in 1 Tim. 2, he is praying to Timothy to send his petitions on his behalf to God.

As Hebrew 12 shows, we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. This is a Greek reference to the amphitheater (nephos marturon), in which the spectators do not merely watch, but cheer us on and witness on our behalf.

Mediation on one's behalf is perfectly acceptable, be it by a person on Earth or a person in Heaven. Both are alive in Christ.

 

[mont974x4]

The tabernacles were not allowed to be built. Is that not enough for you? Jesus did not call upon Moses and Elijah, they appeared.


I won't repeat myself as to the rest. The rcc teaching is unbiblical and no amount of double talk , redefining words, or rationalizing is going to change it.

 

[JoabAnias]

I won't repeat myself as to the rest.

The rcc teaching is unbiblical and no amount of double talk , redefining words, or rationalizing is going to change it.

The word prayer isn't defined as worship, never was. To do so is to lie against Holy Scripture.

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but God of the living. Therefore, you greatly err.

1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

Phi 4:21 Greet every saint in Christ Jesus.



Phi 4:8 For the rest, brothers, whatever is true, whatever honorable, whatever is right, whatever pure, whatever lovely, whatever of good report, if of any virtue, and if of any praise, think on these things.

Tit 1:9 clinging to the faithful Word according to the teaching, that he may be able both to encourage by sound doctrine and to convict the ones contradicting.

The present text of the Apostles Creed is dated c. 700 AD
I believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen There is so so much more I could go into but I am tired of anti-catholic bigotry constantly seeking to degrage my dignity as a Christian. It hurts me on a personal level yet I ignore and forgive your insult for the sake of building up the kingdom of heaven and for your sake though I fear for you in becoming as a vinedresser.

So if you say obstinately, case closed because you have studied yourself out of the actual meaning of the word prayer and into believing ancient apostolic truth from scripture is double speak then I say amen so be it. Your in my prayers, but know, my will is imperfectly united to God which is not possible with the most beautiful saints in heaven.

 

[mont974x4]

I did a study on the word "pray" from the passage where Christ taught us how to pray and it has the commotation of worship.

I don't appreciate being called a liar, welcome to the ignore list.

 

[Technocrat2010]

I did a study on the word "pray" from the passage where Christ taught us how to pray and it has the commotation of worship.

I don't appreciate being called a liar, welcome to the ignore list.

A connotation is dependent upon the context in which it is used. The word "prayer" is DEFINED several ways, ONE of which is worship, and ONE of which is to "ask" or "entreat" or even "beg". Don't forget the old English saying, "I pray thee...." That meant to ASK someone. The connotation depends upon the context, but the definitions include "to ask" or "to petition".

Again, I would like to see which sources you are using.

Furthermore, regardless of how Elijah and Moses appeared, there are two clear points made in that passage:
1) We can communicate with those in Heaven, and
2) It is not condemned, as there was no condemnation from the crowd.

Here's another thing for you - if praying to the saints was a sin, why was there no condemnation when Jesus called out in Aramaic, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" The crowd actually thought he was calling upon Elijah! If you claim it was wrong, why was there no condemnation there either? Neither the elders nor other members present at the crucifixion condemned him for supposedly calling out to Elijah; in fact they simply assumed by default that He was calling upon those with God. Sure, He wasn't actually calling out to Elijah, so the crowd probably misheard Him; but there was no condemnation of the act of calling upon Elijah.

Again, I would like to know what sources you referred to when defining "prayer".

 

[mont974x4]

I use multiple versions of the Bible, a Strongs concordance and Greek and Hebrew dictionaries.

When we are taught to pray, it is a form of worship. Look at the context and the example of a prayer Christ gives us. We are NOT to talk to anyone else in such a manner.


Christ prayed to the Father alone. Just because some people misunderstood Him doesn't mean anything. Just because your denomination has traditionally twisted prayer to something it never was meant to be doesn't make it right either.


unsubscribing because I'm tired of repeating myself in these threads.

 

[Technocrat2010]

I use multiple versions of the Bible, a Strongs concordance and Greek and Hebrew dictionaries.

When we are taught to pray, it is a form of worship. Look at the context and the example of a prayer Christ gives us. We are NOT to talk to anyone else in such a manner.

I asked for the sources for your definition of the word "prayer", not what you use for Biblical exegesis.

Christ prayed to the Father alone. Just because some people misunderstood Him doesn't mean anything. Just because your denomination has traditionally twisted prayer to something it never was meant to be doesn't make it right either.

It IS significant; the implication is that praying to Elijah was acceptable.

The word "prayer" IS defined to "ask" or to "beg" as well. Please see Merriam-Webster Online and other dictionaries as well.

Since we don't have a day-by-day account of Christ's activities, I don't think you can say with certainty that He prayed to the Father alone.

unsubscribing because I'm tired of repeating myself in these threads.

Repeating yourself while ignoring the rebuttals - yes, that is frustrating for all.

 

[Catholic Christian]

1. When did Jesus tell the Apostles to write the New Testament? He didn't, according to the Bible.
2. When did Jesus specifically use the word, "Trinity" He didn't, according to the Bible.

So when people ask "when did Jesus tell us to pray to Mary", and other such simplistic observations, my reply is "He didn't, and it doesn't matter." The point is that there are Biblical "principals" on which Christian teachings are based. Not everything is “specifically” stated in black and white in the Scriptures. As I said, the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible but most Christians believe in the Trinity.

So, what about prayer to Mary and the saints in heaven? Those in heaven pray with us and for us, as in the book of Revelation when John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). A prayer is a request. When we pray to Mary and the saints in heaven, we are asking them to pray for us, the same way non-Catholic Christians ask their friends or family to pray for them.
Question: When you ask your friends or family to pray for you, does that take away from Jesus or his role as mediator? Of course not, and neither does praying to our brother and sisters in heaven. Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16). The family of God transcends death: You are still a Christian even when you are in heaven, and you can still pray for your brothers and sisters when you are there. Catholics believe Jesus when he says, "He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive" (Luke 20:38).

Hebrews 12: 22-24 says that as we approach God, Jesus and the angels, we also approach "the spirits of righteous men made perfect". In other words, THE SAINTS. "But they can't hear us" you may say. Wrong. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. For example, in Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

I invite people to read this information:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

 

[Brennin]

There is only one, of course. The idea that Mary is comediatrix is rotten theology.

 

[Technocrat2010]

There is only one, of course. The idea that Mary is comediatrix is rotten theology.

How is it rotten?

Please have a look at this link -
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

 

[Brennin]

How is it rotten?

Please have a look at this link -
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm

No amount of Roman Catholic spin can save that false doctrine.

1 Timothy 2
5For
there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time.

 

[JoabAnias]

No amount of Roman Catholic spin can save that false doctrine.

1 Timothy 2
5For
there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all
—this was attested at the right time.

Your rebuttal stems from incomplete context and thus takes a perfect truth and attempts to put it at odds with what is actually being said.

Lets look at what the Scripture intends:

1Ti 2:1 First of all then, I exhort that petitions, prayers, supplications, and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men,

From where you tear the true context of that passage and pass it off as complete truth as a stand alone verse you miss the context that it is in exortation to pray for each other and as such, makes each of us when we do this, a mediator.

1Ti 2:2 for kings and all the ones being in high position, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet existence in all godliness and dignity.

Jesus, mother is above all kings and as such our greatest intercessor and mediator with her Son as she attests to in scripture at the wedding feast when she instructs them to "Do whatever He tells you".

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,

Again, the context tells us its good and acceptable to pray and to pray for each other. The kingdom of God begins here on earth with faith and is eternally united with that of heaven, as such we are encompassed with all those there even though we remain in exile here.

1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.

Full knowlege of truth is not in the explicit propogation of a single verse in lieu of the context of what the writer meant.

1Ti 2:5 For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,

This is why Christ's sacrifice is efficatious for out salvation. As the trinity is perfectly united, when we pray directly to the Father or Holy Spirit those prayers none the less pass through He who became flesh to free us in this new covenant with He who is one in three persons. There is no power in any intercession or mediation not granted by God and thus Jesus is the one mediator always.

1Ti 2:6 the One having given Himself a ransom on behalf of all, the testimony to be given in its own time,

A better way of saying what I tried to above and perfect witness to the Church that God brings understanding of that testimony in His time which defintely isn't ours. Don't know of anyone with the patience to have waited 2000 years to learn what has been understood through the Holy Spirit thus far.

1Ti 2:7 to which I was appointed a herald and apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie), a teacher of the nations, in faith and truth.

Prime example of the successive authority bestowed on the deciples of the apostles to carry on teaching that truth in all her beautiful doctrines which it has and will continue to despite all those who through lackings of their own will reject.

1Ti 2:8 Therefore, I desire the men to pray in every place, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting.

Its long been my opinion that doubting or wrath is connected to a lack of a prayer life which entails becoming more sinful.

Peace.

 

[Brennin]

Your rebuttal stems from incomplete context and thus takes a perfect truth and attempts to put it at odds with what is actually being said.

Lets look at what the Scripture intends:

1Ti 2:1 First of all then, I exhort that petitions, prayers, supplications, and thanksgivings be made on behalf of all men,

From where you tear the true context of that passage and pass it off as complete truth as a stand alone verse you miss the context that it is in exortation to pray for each other and as such, makes each of us when we do this, a mediator.

1Ti 2:2 for kings and all the ones being in high position, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet existence in all godliness and dignity.

Jesus, mother is above all kings and as such our greatest intercessor and mediator with her Son as she attests to in scripture at the wedding feast when she instructs them to "Do whatever He tells you".

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable before God our Savior,

Again, the context tells us its good and acceptable to pray and to pray for each other. The kingdom of God begins here on earth with faith and is eternally united with that of heaven, as such we are encompassed with all those there even though we remain in exile here.

1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to a full knowledge of truth.

Full knowlege of truth is not in the explicit propogation of a single verse in lieu of the context of what the writer meant.

1Ti 2:5 For God is one, also there is one Mediator of God and of men, the Man Christ Jesus,

This is why Christ's sacrifice is efficatious for out salvation. As the trinity is perfectly united, when we pray directly to the Father or Holy Spirit those prayers none the less pass through He who became flesh to free us in this new covenant with He who is one in three persons. There is no power in any intercession or mediation not granted by God and thus Jesus is the one mediator always.

1Ti 2:6 the One having given Himself a ransom on behalf of all, the testimony to be given in its own time,

A better way of saying what I tried to above and perfect witness to the Church that God brings understanding of that testimony in His time which defintely isn't ours. Don't know of anyone with the patience to have waited 2000 years to learn what has been understood through the Holy Spirit thus far.

1Ti 2:7 to which I was appointed a herald and apostle (I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie), a teacher of the nations, in faith and truth.

Prime example of the successive authority bestowed on the deciples of the apostles to carry on teaching that truth in all her beautiful doctrines which it has and will continue to despite all those who through lackings of their own will reject.

1Ti 2:8 Therefore, I desire the men to pray in every place, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting.

Its long been my opinion that doubting or wrath is connected to a lack of a prayer life which entails becoming more sinful.

Peace.

Please. If you actually read the New Testament you see that Jesus does not treat his mother as "the queen of heaven" or "comediatrix." Those are false RC doctrines that have no basis in scripture or Early Christianity.

Mark 3
31 Then his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside, they sent to him and called him. 32A crowd was sitting around him; and they said to him, ‘Your mother and your brothers and sisters* are outside, asking for you.’ 33And he replied, ‘Who are my mother and my brothers?’ 34And looking at those who sat around him, he said, ‘Here are my mother and my brothers! 35Whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.’

 

[JoabAnias]

Please. If you actually read the New Testament you see that Jesus does not treat his mother as "the queen of heaven" or "comediatrix." Those are false RC doctrines that have no basis in scripture or Early Christianity.

The basis of all doctrine comes from several sources given by God Himself.

Just because you can't or refuse to try and understand or don't pray so that you may see the implicit depth of Scripture doesn't make said doctrines false. Only your missinterpretations do that.

I would like to invite you to pray to Jesus. Most Christians would agree that it is completely safe to pray to Jesus about anything. I would like to invite you to pray to Jesus about Mary. Simply ask Jesus to show you the truth about his mother. Ask Him to direct your thinking about her. Ask Jesus if His mother is alive with Him. Ask Him if Mary is praying for us. Just pray to Jesus about her. Try this every night for six weeks. I am thoroughly convinced that He will bring you to the truth about His mother.

Mary's Coronation in Heaven

2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.

James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.

1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.

Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.

Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the "woman," is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.

Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.

Peace.

 

[Brennin]

The basis of all doctrine comes from several sources given by God Himself.

Just because you can't or refuse to try and understand or don't pray so that you may see the implicit depth of Scripture doesn't make said doctrines false. Only your missinterpretations do that.

I would like to invite you to pray to Jesus. Most Christians would agree that it is completely safe to pray to Jesus about anything. I would like to invite you to pray to Jesus about Mary. Simply ask Jesus to show you the truth about his mother. Ask Him to direct your thinking about her. Ask Jesus if His mother is alive with Him. Ask Him if Mary is praying for us. Just pray to Jesus about her. Try this every night for six weeks. I am thoroughly convinced that He will bring you to the truth about His mother.

We are supposed to do our homework first, and God has already given the answer via scripture. Mary was simply a human being who was blessed to give birth to Jesus Christ; that does not make her "queen of heaven" or "comediatrix."