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How many "Kingdoms of Heaven" are there?

jnhofzinser

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FWIW, to make the situation even more interesting, it is quite possible that Jesus' Aramaic expression was (the equivalent of) "the Kingdom of YHWH". But around the time of Jesus, there was an effort to control the expressions of the Holy Name of God. It appears, for example, that the original (Greek) Septuagint contained the Tetragrammaton, but by the time of Christ, it had been replaced by Kyrios or Theos. So if the (Aramaic) word that was used by Jesus a) was untranslatable in Greek and b) was considered inappropriate to express untranslated, then the gospel writers (Matthew and Mark) would have had to rely on the Holy Spirit to provide an appropriate translation for them.

But the other aspect in play is that Hebrew/Aramaic thinking is synthetic/metaphoric/associative. That is, if you were to suggest to an early-first-century Jew that the Kingdom of Tiberius (i.e., the King) was at all different from the Kingdom of Rome (i.e., the domain of that King), they would be bewildered. Similarly, the suggestion that the Kingdom of God (i.e., the King) was at all different from the Kingdom of Heaven (i.e., the domain of that King) would sound absurd to Matthew and Mark.
 
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5thKingdom

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FWIW, to make the situation even more interesting, it is quite possible that Jesus' Aramaic expression was (the equivalent of) "the Kingdom of YHWH". But around the time of Jesus, there was an effort to control the expressions of the Holy Name of God.


Again... you did not bother to use a CONCORDANCE
Use the Concordance to search G3772 and you will find it is used 284 times in the Bible
and it is always translated "heaven"
----
Now... use the Concordance to search G2316 and you will find it is used 1343 times in the Bible
and it is always translated "God"

You do not have to LIKE what the Bible says... and you do not have to ACCEPT what the Bible says....
but you can never CHANGE what the Bible says.


.
 
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jnhofzinser

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Matthew 13:31,32 says:
He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed which a man took and planted in his field. Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”

Mark 4:30-32 says:
Again he said, “What shall we say the kingdom of God is like or what parable shall we use to describe it? It is like a mustard seed, which is the smallest of all seeds on earth. Yet when planted, it grows and becomes the largest of all garden plants, with such big branches that the birds can perch in its shade.”

Luke 13:18,19 says:
Then Jesus asked, “What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree and the birds perched in its branches.”

As the man said:
Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are synonymous.
 
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jnhofzinser

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After the parable of the sower, Jesus says:

(in Matthew 13:11)
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you but not to them.

(in Mark 4:11)
He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you.

As the man said:
Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are synonymous.
 
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jnhofzinser

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Matthew introduces the message of Jesus with these words (4:17):
Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

...and Mark introduces the message of Jesus with these words (1:15):
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.

5thKingdom writes:
why don't you offer some SCRIPTURE that contradicts what I have [claimed] the Bible says?

There you go -- three near-perfect parallels between the gospels in which "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" are used interchangeably. Case closed.

As the man said:
Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are synonymous.
 
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5thKingdom

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One..........

.

Yes, one "Kingdom of Heaven" during the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven"
and one "Kingdom of Heaven" during the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
and one "Kingdom of Heaven" during the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13]
and one "Kingdom of Heaven" during the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]

That is why Daniel 7 reveals there are four (4) Kingdoms on earth before the (5th) Eternal Kingdom...
that is called "harmony of Scripture"... and is the ONLY MEASURE of Biblical Truth. More than that,
it is CONFIRMED in history (aka "reality").

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the FOURTH KINGDOM UPON EARTH,
which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth,
and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So your argument is with the BIBLE (not with me) and with History/Reality (not with me).
Good luck with that.


.
 
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Douggg

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You have a theory that the Four Kingdoms that arise on earth represent Babylon/Persia/Greece and Rome...
I did not write arise out of the "earth". I wrote come out of the "sea".

3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

(2) Second.... you are avoiding the BIBLICAL FACT that the Bible does NAME the Kingdoms in Matthew.

No, it doesn't. The four beasts coming out of the sea in Daniel 7, correspond to the four kingdoms represented by the statue dream in Daniel 2. Which states that Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold.
Which makes the first empire the Babylonian empire. Which Nebuchadnezzar as the king corresponds to what Daniel was told in Daniel 7:17 about the four beasts being 4 kings also - coming out the earth (not sea , because as kings, they are men, which men are made from the dust of the earth). Which corresponds to Revelation 13, as the first beast represents both a king and kingdom.

17 'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth.

Do you actually teach that people live on earth AFTER the Romans are "cast alive into the "Lake-of-Fire"?
I don't think so.
It doesn't say lake of fire. In the kjv it say burning flame. It means that the ends times version of the Roman Empire (the EU), the feet of clay and iron of the feet in Daniel 2, with the ten toes representing the ten kings, will be destroyed as a union entity, end of the EU, and not continue into the 1000 year millennium reign of Jesus.

The other three beasts comprised of the nations that once made them up - will continue into the1000 year millennium as Jesus rules the nations with a rod of iron, and they will learn war no more, nation

against nation. Isaiah 2:4.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

So.... we have established that Matthew NAMES four of the five "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth.

No you haven't. There is only one Kingdom of Heaven. The kingdoms of the this world will be ruled over by the Kingdom of God when Jesus returns, bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to earth.
 
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Douggg

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Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are synonymous.
Agree. And it doesn't say 1,2,3,4,5 Kingdoms of Heaven ,nor 1,2,3,4,5 Kingdoms of God, anywhere in the bible.
 
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5thKingdom

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It doesn't say lake of fire. In the kjv it say burning flame. It means that the ends times version of the Roman Empire (the EU), the feet of clay and iron of the feet in Daniel 2, with the ten toes representing the ten kings, will be destroyed as a union entity, end of the EU, and not continue into the 1000 year millennium reign of Jesus.


----------

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake:
I beheld even till the [Fourth] beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away:
yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


Rev 19:20 And the [Revelation] Beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,
with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

---------------

If you cannot understand that the verses above are talking about the SAME EVENT... I cannot help you.

Secondly.... the PEOPLE living in Daniel's Fourth Beast are called "ten horns" and "ten kings".
And the PEOPLE living in the Revelations Beast are called "ten horns" and "ten kings".
In both cases these are the PEOPLE living on earth when the Lord Returns.
If you cannot understand they are the SAME PEOPLE... I cannot help you.

------------

The Bible NAMES the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 22.... do you think the Bible is wrong?
The Bible NAMES the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 13... do you think the Bible is wrong?
The Bible NAMES the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 25.... do you think the Bible is wrong?
The Bible NAMES the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" in Matthew 5, 7, 8 and 19.... do you think the Bible is wrong?

The Bible says there are four (4) "Kingdoms" on earth before the Lord Returns to establish
the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven".... do you think the Bible is wrong?

Do you also think the following verse is wrong:

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The KINGDOM OF GOD shall be taken from you,
[taken from the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom of Heaven] and given to a nation bringing forth
the fruits thereof [given to the (3rd) Christian Kingdom of Heaven]

Have you ever heard of the theological concept of "harmony of Scripture"?
Do you realize your theories must harmonize with ALL RELATED SCRIPTURE
before we can even pretend to have an informed opinion?

------------


1.1 Harmony of Scripture



This is an important part of the Gospel that most Biblical "scholars/teachers" either overlook or don’t understand:
The only measure of Biblical Truth is "Harmony of Scripture". The only way to find Biblical Truth is when our doctrine
harmonizes with all related Scripture. If we can find even ONE VERSE in the Bible that contradicts our doctrine, then we know
that we have not found Biblical Truth... at best we have found some partial-truth. Since the Bible is the “Word of God” and contains
(in the original) no errors or contradictions, this is the First Principle in all Bible study, and the only presupposition of this prophecy.


For example: I could provide several verses that seem to teach that salvation is the result of water baptism.
In fact, that belief is an essential doctrine for some individuals and churches. However, I could also provide Scriptures
teaching there’s NO ACTION a person can perform to attain salvation – that it’s a gift of Sovereign Grace and not of works.
The Biblical Truth about the process of salvation can only be found when we harmonize all Scriptures related to this subject…
anything less would be (at best) some partial-truth. You cannot have error (or heresy) when you have “Harmony of Scripture”.


Throughout history, false Christians (unsaved "tares/goats") normally decide to intentionally ignore all the Scriptures
contradicting (and invalidating) their doctrines. That is the reason there are so many false doctrines in the churches today.
However, one of the "fruits" of real Christians (saved "wheat/sheep") is to gladly modify our doctrines until they harmonize
withALL related Scriptures. Real Saints SUBMIT to what the Bible says – they do not intentionally ignore what they dislike.


If we can find even ONE VERSE that contradicts our doctrine/gospel then we have proven we have not found Biblical Truth
(we have not found “Harmony of Scripture”) and, at best, we have only found some partial-truth which must be revised
until it harmonizes with ALL Scripture. The only measure of Biblical Truth is harmony of all related Scripture.
And the only confirmation of Biblical Truth is FULFILLMENT of that prophecy in history (aka. “reality”).


It does not matter what our church or preacher teaches… if only ONE VERSE of Scripture contradicts that teaching
then it has already been PROVEN to be un-Biblical (and, therefore, incorrect) because it does not have “Harmony of Scripture”.
The same standard applies now while discussing “unsealed” Biblical mysteries (as the Gospel of early Christians clearly did also).
Throughout history, the Saints have always understood that the only measure of Biblical Truth is complete “Harmony of Scripture”.


It's un-Biblical to teach that all interpretations are equally valid. But it's also incorrect to teach that we cannot find Biblical Truth.
The fact is: Scripture was written so that real Saints (the saved "wheat/sheep") would be able to discern the "Word of God",
within God's timeline for revealing His mysteries… by comparing (and then by harmonizing) Scripture-with-Scripture.




.








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5thKingdom

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Agree. And it doesn't say 1,2,3,4,5 Kingdoms of Heaven ,nor 1,2,3,4,5 Kingdoms of God, anywhere in the bible.



It does not have to say 1.2.3.4.5 Kingdoms....

(a) Because it says there are four (4) Kingdoms before the Lord Returns to establish the (5th) Eternal Kingdom
and we are expected to be aware that the number 5 follows the number 4 and

(b) Because it NAMES four of the five Kingdoms in Matthew.... and we already know the (1st) Pre-Flood Kingdom
precedes the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom NAMED in Matthew 22:2

You seem to be under the impression that Biblical Truth requires your acceptance.... it does not.
You can argue there are not FIVE KINGDOMS because the Bible does not have a passages that says
#1 and #2 and #3 and #4 and #5. But that is not a valid argument and (frankly) is described in the Bible
as being "willfully ignorant".

Pre-Flood Kingdom (Adam to Noah)
Jewish Kingdom (the temples)
Christian Kingdom (the churches)
Great Tribulation Kingdom (Revelation Beast)
Eternal Kingdom (New Jerusalem)
-------------------------------------------
That is a total of five (5) Kingdoms
whether you can count to five or not
--------------------------------------------



.
 
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5thKingdom

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Agree. And it doesn't say 1,2,3,4,5 Kingdoms of Heaven ,nor 1,2,3,4,5 Kingdoms of God, anywhere in the bible.


First.... you need to be able to DEFINE the TERMS you are talking about before you can pretend
to offer an informed opinion on the matter.

DEFINE the four "Kingdoms of Heaven".... does it contain BOTH "wheat and tares" (the answer is yes)
DEFINE
the one "Kingdom of God".... does it contain ONLY the "wheat" (the answer is yes)

DEFINE the four "Kingdoms of Heaven"..... do they include flesh and blood (the answer is yes)
DEFINE
the one "Kingdom of God".... does it contain flesh and blood (the answer is no)

Before you can offer an informed opinion on the Biblical MEANING of a term
you must first be able to DEFINE that term... so far, you have not even TRIED to define the terms....
and yet you actually pretend to be able to offer an informed opinion on the terms and you actually
expect to be taken seriously (on the meaning of terms you cannot define).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the KINGDOM OF GOD;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


.
 
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Douggg

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First.... you need to be able to DEFINE the TERMS you are talking about before you can pretend
to offer an informed opinion on the matter.

DEFINE the four "Kingdoms of Heaven".... does it contain BOTH "wheat and tares" (the answer is yes)
DEFINE
the one "Kingdom of God".... does it contain ONLY the "wheat" (the answer is yes)

DEFINE the four "Kingdoms of Heaven"..... do they include flesh and blood (the answer is yes)
DEFINE
the one "Kingdom of God".... does it contain flesh and blood (the answer is no)

Before you can offer an informed opinion on the Biblical MEANING of a term
you must first be able to DEFINE that term... so far, you have not even TRIED to define the terms....
and yet you actually pretend to be able to offer an informed opinion on the terms and you actually
expect to be taken seriously (on the meaning of terms you cannot define).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the KINGDOM OF GOD;
neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


.
Jesus spoke in a multitude of parables about the one Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of God. It is a multiple of parables, not multiple Kingdoms of Heaven, Kingdom of Gd.
 
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Douggg

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It does not have to say 1.2.3.4.5 Kingdoms....

(a) Because it says there are four (4) Kingdoms before the Lord Returns to establish the (5th) Eternal Kingdom
The bible does not say four (4) Kingdoms of Heaven before the Lord Returns. There are four kingdoms coming out of the sea; the sea representing humanity, the nations. The Kingdom of Heaven does not come out of the sea, the nations - but from heaven.

And there are four (4) kingdoms in Daniel 7. Three of the kingdoms were prior to Jesus's first coming. The fourth kingdom was ruling at the time of Jesus's first coming , the Roman Empire. At the time of Jesus's second coming,the fourth kingdom, the end times version of it, the EU, will be ruling.

60 years of the Rome Treaties - European Union - European Commission
 
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Douggg

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Jesus spoke in a multitude of parables about the one Kingdom of Heaven, Kingdom of God. It is a multiple of parables, not multiple Kingdoms of Heaven, Kingdom of Gd.

In Daniel 7, Daniel saw one like the Son of Man coming on the clouds to the throne of God... when did that take place?

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

And what was the kingdom given to him? And where was it given to him?
 
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ViaCrucis

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There's one kingdom of God/heaven. The reign of God as king as inaugurated in and through Jesus Christ, His life, teachings, works, death, resurrection, ascension, and glorious return with the renewal of all things.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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5thKingdom

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There's one kingdom of God/heaven. The reign of God as king as inaugurated in and through Jesus Christ, His life, teachings, works, death, resurrection, ascension, and glorious return with the renewal of all things.

-CryptoLutheran


If there is ONE "Kingdom of Heaven" (as you suggest) then tell me two things:

(1) What do you DEFINE as the "Kingdom of Heaven".... does it contain both saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares"
as the Lord insisted in Matthew 13. Or do you disagree with what Matthew 13 teaches?


(2) Since the Bible specifically NAMES the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 5 and 7 and 8 and 19]
Do you suggest the Bible is WRONG in those Scriptures?

Since the Bible specifically NAMES the (4th) Great Tribulation as being the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
Do you suggest the Bible is WRONG in that Scripture?

Since the Bible specifically NAMES the (3rd) Christian Kingdom as the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13]
Do you suggest the Bible is WRONG in those passages?

Since the Bible specifically NAMES the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom as the "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
Do you suggest the Bible is WRONG in that Verse?


I understand that you may not LIKE what the Bible says in those SCRIPTURES.
What I don't understand is why you think that matters. Either the SCRIPTURES use the term "Kingdom of Heaven"
or they don't. Since they clearly do use the term "Kingdom of Heaven"... how do you justify expressing the contrary?
How do you justify contradicting what the SCRIPTURES specifically say?

I am Sincerely asking a question....
how do you intentionally ignore specific SCRIPTURES?
How do you justify CONTRADICTING specific Scriptures without offering
any contradictory Scriptures?

.

.
 
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