How many "Kingdoms of Heaven" are there?

[5thKingdom]

Thy kingdom come! Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

That is called a STRAWMAN because we are not disputing that fact.

The dispute is simple... does the "Kingdom" in the verse above represent the
(5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [referenced in Mat 5 and 7 and 8 and 19] or the
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [referenced in Mat 25:1] or the
(3d) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [referenced in Mat 13] or the
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [referenced in Mat 22:2]

Since the Bible specifically NAMES four distinct "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth
you are talking a position of "willful ignorance" when you pretend otherwise.

You cannot intentionally IGNORE what the Bible specifically NAMES....
and expect to have any credibility on the issue. You can DENY the Bible
specifically NAMES four separate-and-distinct "Kingdoms of Heaven"....
but your DENIAL means less than nothing.


Jim

 

[5thKingdom]

The ten leader form of government of is shortly going to appear. Then of course, the identity of the person who eventually becomes the Antichrist will be known. Certain parameters will verify his identity. He will be a Jew. His religion Judaism. He will have a determined look appearance and will appeal to the Europeans - probably because of his anti-muslim take over of Europe likely.

That is called a "private interpretation" and means LESS than nothing because
it contradicts SCRIPTURE.

The "ten horns" and the "ten kings" of Daniel 7 are the SAME PEOPLE
as the "ten horns and the "ten kings of Rev 17.... and the SAME PEOPLE
as the "toes" and the "ten "kings" of Daniel ..... and the SAME PEOPLE
as the ten "virgins" of Matthew 25.

So.... if you cannot harmonize the passages above you cannot offer an "informed opinion"
on the matter and it is relevant that previous Saints have REJECTED your eschatology
because they have REJECTED the Scriptures you provide as support.

They have REJECTED your eschatology because it does not HARMONIZE with the Bible.
As we are seeing now.... you cannot harmonize the ten "horns/kings/virgins" into your
eschatology.

Doug.... the EVENTS we are discussing (occurring in the Fourth Beast and Revelation Beast)
are described in DOZENS of different passages. You must be able to harmonize ALL OF THEM
before you can pretend to have four more than partial-truth.

You ADMIT the Roman Empire was already destroyed....
and yet you PRETEND that Daniel 7:11-12 has not occurred already....
you cannot have it both ways.

Jim

 

[Radrook]

That is called a STRAWMAN because we are not disputing that fact.

The dispute is simple... does the "Kingdom" in the verse above represent the
(5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [referenced in Mat 5 and 7 and 8 and 19] or the
(4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [referenced in Mat 25:1] or the
(3d) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [referenced in Mat 13] or the
(2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [referenced in Mat 22:2]

Since the Bible specifically NAMES four distinct "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth
you are talking a position of "willful ignorance" when you pretend otherwise.

You cannot intentionally IGNORE what the Bible specifically NAMES....
and expect to have any credibility on the issue. You can DENY the Bible
specifically NAMES four separate-and-distinct "Kingdoms of Heaven"....
but your DENIAL means less than nothing.


Jim

I never perceived the Bible as referring to four distinct Heavenly kingdoms.

 

[5thKingdom]

Who's Greg? You are confusing the horn (the person) on the beast (the kingdom) with the beast the kingdom. The beast (the kingdom) in Daniel 7:11 does not equal the beast (the person) cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

The horn (a person) of the beast (the 4th kingdom) in Daniel 7:11 is who will be cast into alive (not slain) into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

First, I apologize for calling you Greg instead of Doug... a senior moment.

Secondly.... there is no dispute (Biblically) that the term "Kingdom" and the term "Beast"
represent Kingdoms of very real PEOPLE.

Third... and this is an important point that you continue to intentionally ignore....
the "ten horns" and the "ten kings" in Daniel 7 are the SAME PEOPLE as
the "ten horns" and the "ten kings" in Revelation 17 and the SAME PEOPLE
as the "ten virgins" in Matthew 25 and the SAME PEOPLE as the "ten toes"
and the ten kings" of Daniel 2.

We know this ABSOLUTELY because (in each case) they represent the PEOPLE
living on earth when the Lord Returns at the Seventh Trumpet.

If you cannot HARMONIZE the ten "horns/kings/virgins" living on earth at the
Lord's Return.... then you cannot offer an informed opinion on what the Bible says.
You can offer all the speculation you want - you can offer all the "opinions" you want....
but they are already PROVEN to be un-Biblical (and, therefore, incorrect) because they
show you cannot HARMONIZE Scriptures about the Last Saints on earth.

It's really as simple as that.
Your eschatology cannot harmonize the ten "horns/kings/virgins"...
so it is already proven wrong.

Jim


.

 

[5thKingdom]

I never perceived the Bible as referring to four distinct Heavenly kingdoms.

Never the less...
The Bible specifically NAMES four separate-and-distinct "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth...
so that Biblical FACT must be harmonized into our eschatology before we can even pretend
to have found more than some partial-truth.

Jim

 

[Douggg]

Secondly.... there is no dispute (Biblically) that the term "Kingdom" and the term "Beast"
represent Kingdoms of very real PEOPLE.

Beast can represent Kingdoms, agreed. But not always.

2Peter2:12, Peter describes certain wicked men as beasts, for example...

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

Third... and this is an important point that you continue to intentionally ignore....
the "ten horns" and the "ten kings" in Daniel 7 are the SAME PEOPLE as
the "ten horns" and the "ten kings" in Revelation 17 and the SAME PEOPLE
as the "ten virgins" in Matthew 25 and the SAME PEOPLE as the "ten toes"
and the ten kings" of Daniel 2.

I am with you, except on the ten virgins connection.

If you cannot HARMONIZE the ten "horns/kings/virgins" living on earth at the
Lord's Return.... then you cannot offer an informed opinion on what the Bible says.
You can offer all the speculation you want - you can offer all the "opinions" you want....
but they are already PROVEN to be un-Biblical (and, therefore, incorrect) because they
show you cannot HARMONIZE Scriptures about the Last Saints on earth.

The ten virgins - in the parable - are not a fit nor connect with the literally ten individuals represented by the ten horns vision and prophecy. The ten virgins represent more than just ten individuals, wouldn't you say? ...and it is a split of 5 wise and 5 unwise. The ten horns, on the other hand, will all be against Jesus and will ultimately pledge their kingdom to the beast... for that last 42 months.

 

[5thKingdom]

Where are you reading fruit in these verses? It says in the text the good seed are the children of the kingdom.

Are you kidding me?
The "field" where the "seed" (Gospel) is sown is the world....
the "fruit" of the "seed" is either "wheat" sown by Christ or "tares" sown by Satan.
It could not be more clear. Read the passage again, and read for comprehension.

BTW.... the "wheat" are also called the "sheep" and the "good fish"
And the "tares" are also called the "goats" and the "bad fish"
In EACH CASE they are PEOPLE who exist (.... wait for it.....)
within the "Kingdom of Heaven".

------

Jim the reason you don't understand it is because you don't understand that Revelation, the end times chapter(s) are grouped according to whether they cover the full 70th week or the second half of the 70th week.

I will explain, expanding what takes place in Chapters 7-9, a group; then what takes place in Chapters 10-11, a group.


Chapter 6 is an overview of the 70th week of Daniel 9, start to finish.

Chapters 7-9 is what takes place during the second half of the 70th week.

John sees something new after the sixth seal. He sees the sealing of the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel, before any hurt is done to the earth, sea, trees.

That hurt comes in chapter 8, as the trumpet judgements begin.

John also sees the great multitude coming out of the great tribulation in Chapter 7. So we know that is the second half of the seventieth week after the abomination of desolation has been setup.

Chapter 8 and 9 takes us through the remainder of the second half of the 70th week as the trumpet judgments take place, to the end when the 200,000,000 strong army kills a third of men. Two woes are described in Chapter 9, with the second woe being near the end of the second half of the 70th week.


Chapters 10-11 is the full 70th week according to the little book John eats

Chapter 10 begins a new vision for John. He sees a mighty angel, who ends up giving him a little book to eat and to prophesy. Then John is given a reed to measure the temple and count them with in. But to leave out the outer court because it will be tread down by the Gentiles 42 months (the same 42 months of the second half of the 70th week the beast rules in Revelation 13)

So that indicates the second half - the 42 months.

And John is told the two witnesses testify 1260 days. Those 1260 days are the same 1260 days in Revelation 12, that in the text come before the war in heaven, and Satan cast down for the time, times, half times. Thus we can know the 1260 days is the first half of the 70th week... leaving the time, times, half times as the second half of the 70th week.

The seventh trumpet sounds right after the 1260 days of the two witnesses - which places the seventh trumpet - which announces the third woe to mankind - Satan cast down to earth - as being near the mid-point of the 70th week.

So it is by separation of the chapters - what they cover - that the 1st and 2nd woes within Chapters 7-9 group are near the end of the second half of the 70th week. While the 3rd woe, within the Chapters 10-11 group, although numerically 3 follows 2 - the action of the 3rd woe is on a timeline before the 1st and 2nd woe.

As verification, Satan as the star fallen from heaven, when he is cast down to earth, the third woe is at the beginning of Chapter 9 before woes 1 and 2.


Chapter 12 is the 70th week relevant to Israel.

Chapters 13-14 is the second half of the 70th week, the great tribulation.

Chapters 15-16 is the second half of the 70th week, God's vials of wrath.

Chapters 17-18 is about Mystery Babylon, the beast, the seven kings and ten kings

Chapter 19 is the glorious return of Jesus to complete the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

Are you kidding me?
The "field" where the "seed" (Gospel) is sown is the world....
the "fruit" of the "seed" is either "wheat" sown by Christ or "tares" sown by Satan.
It could not be more clear. Read the passage again, and read for comprehension.

BTW.... the "wheat" are also called the "sheep" and the "good fish"
And the "tares" are also called the "goats" and the "bad fish"
In EACH CASE they are PEOPLE who exist (.... wait for it.....)
within the "Kingdom of Heaven".

Well, first a person has to understand that the verses which don't contain anything about fruit, sheep, or good fish in Matthew 13 on the parable of the tares, Jesus in Matthew 13:36-43 was explaining what the parable he had told the crowd earlier in Matthew 13 meant, when he was alone with the disciples as they ask him to explain (Declare) the parable.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[5thKingdom]

Well, first a person has to understand that the verses which don't contain anything about fruit, sheep, or good fish in Matthew 13 on the parable of the tares, Jesus in Matthew 13:36-43 was explaining what the parable he had told the crowd earlier in Matthew 13 meant, when he was alone with the disciples as they ask him to explain (Declare) the parable.

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

------------


You are kidding me right?
What did I say that was not the SAME as Scripture?

Hint: cutting and pasting Scripture means nothing without comments.
My comments HARMONIZED with everything you cut-and-pasted.
If you think otherwise all you need do is show some contradiction.

Can you do that?

I said EVERYTHING you just posted.... here it is again:

---------------------

In Matthew 13 the Lord Jesus reveals several different perspectives about the (3rd) New Testament "Kingdom of Heaven".

The Lord reveals [v3-8] the "Kingdom of Heaven" (Christian Kingdom) is like a man sowing seed, and the Christian Gospel

is called [v19] the "Word of the Kingdom". The Lord reveals [v24-30] the "Kingdom of Heaven" (Christian Kingdom) includes

both saved "wheat" (sown by Christ), and unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan). Moreover, these wheat and tares look very similar,

and they are allowed to grow together - until they are separated during the "Final Harvest", which occurs at the "end-of-the-age".


The Lord reveals [v47-50] the "Kingdom of Heaven" (Christian Kingdom) is like casting a net to gather both good fish ("wheat")

and bad fish ("tares"), which are later separated during the "Final Harvest". And finally, the Lord reveals [v52] that the GOSPEL

of the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" includes the Saints ("wheat") understanding the Harmony of Scripture between mysteries

which were revealed during the (2nd) Old Testament Kingdom (represented as "old treasure") and mysteries now being revealed

during the "testimony" of the Great Commission, during the (3rd) New Testament Kingdom (represented as "new treasure").


(1) The "Kingdom of Heaven" is an earthly Kingdom

(2) The sower of good seed represents the Lord Jesus Christ

(3) The sower of bad seed represents Satan, the King of Babylon

(4) The "Word of the Kingdom" (the seed) is the Gospel of the New Testament

(5) The "field" represents the world, as the Gospel goes forth to both Jew and Gentile

(6) The "fruit" of the field (both wheat and tares) represents the (3rd) "Kingdom of Heaven"

(7) The "Word of the Kingdom" gathers good fish and bad fish during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom

(8) The (saved) "wheat" and the (unsaved) "tares" LOOK similar, and grow together until the end-of-the-age

(9) At the end-of-the-age, the "wheat and tares" (the good fish and bad fish) are separated - during the "Final Harvest"


In Matthew 13 the Lord explains the THIRD "Kingdom of Heaven" (the Christian Kingdom -or- New Testament Church)

is an earthly Kingdom consisting of both (saved) "wheat" and (unsaved) "tares". This Biblical Truth also harmonizes with

the (2nd) Jewish Kingdom containing both saved "wheat" and unsaved "tares" within the "Kingdom" of national Israel and

the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom containing both saved "wheat" (shown as "Wise Virgins" and "Toes/Kings" of IRON),

and unsaved "tares" (shown as "Foolish Virgins" and "Toes/Kings" of CLAY) during the Fourth and Last Kingdom on earth.

 

[jerry kelso]

The A-Millennial doctrine is the TRADITIONAL doctrine of the early Christians
and the Catholic church and most of the Reformers.... I have not seen any
SCRIPTURE (or any Biblical reason) refuting that view from you... if I missed
it I apologize.

But let's remember... the CONTEXT of this thread is how many "Kingdoms of Heaven"
are there are earth and the BIBLE specifically NAMES four (out of five) periods as the
"Kingdom of Heaven".... and DEFINES four of those Kingdoms as "wheat and tares"
of both "flesh and blood".

If you can REFUTE the A-Millennial position... I would like to see that.
If you can REFUTE the fact the BIBLE NAMES four separate "Kingdoms of Heaven" show me.

Otherwise... so far, I have only seen you DENY what the Bible specifically NAMES
(regarding the KOH) and I have only seen you DENY the traditional A-Millennial doctrine.

I will wait to see if you have SCRIPTURE to support your denial.

Jim

5th kingdom,

1. The KoH message by Jesus was about offering the physical KoH earthly reign Matthew 4:17 for the Jews to rule at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7;66:7-9 and this is what they wanted. for they were looking for a conquering Messiah Matthew 21:1-9.
However, the condition was for the nation to repent and they rejected him instead for they weren't looking for the suffering Savior Isaiah 53:1-7. The second time they will recognize him as the one whom they pierced Revelation 1:7 and they will be a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:8.

2. The church will be raptured before the tribulation Revelation 4:1;5:9-10.
The rapture was a mystery in the Old covenant 1Corinthians 15:51.
The previous verse says flesh and blood will not inherit it which is talking about the Old Testament who have gone on before as well as the NC church.
The good seed are the children of the kingdom is not the For they are in Heaven before Revelation 4:1;5:9-10; 11:18 and 19:7-9 and come out of Heaven with the Lord Revelation 19:11-15-21 to do battle at Armageddon.
Since the church is not on earth during the tribulation they are not the children of the kingdom in Matthew 13:38.
You are basing your view on Matthew 13:30 as the Tares and wheat grow up together to be the church for you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.
You are wrong about a post rapture by scripture.

3. Jesus is teaching them about the end of the age which deals with the nation of Israel and the Gentiles nation who will surround her at Jerusalem and Christ will step on the Mount of Olives and their will be an earthquake and Christ will destroy the kingdom of this world and take them for his own Zechariah 14:1-9; Revelation 13.

4. Btw, Augustine started much of the teaching about a- millennialism though he first believed in pre-millennialism. He changed because he thought pre-millennialism was carnal.
He also got messed up with fatalism and other doctrines that was thought to lean towards metaphysics because of some of secularism etc.
Augustine believed that if there was a literal scripture that didn't line up with science and supposed God given sense then the passage should be a metaphor.
This is another false belief from a-millennialists.
The Bible is inerrant and not science and man.

5. There is only one earthly sphere physically ever since creation which I explained by scripture already which Daniel called the Kingdom under the whole heaven Daniel 7:27 and the reign will be on this earth forever.
There is only one definition of the KoH reign which is when the King is here personally for Jesus offered them this kingdom but they rejected it Matthew 23:37-39.
Also, the KoH reign is tied into the restitution of all things Acts 3:19.
Peter knew the signs of the kingdom and quoted Joel but it was not the fulfillment on the Day of Pentecost.
Matter of fact Jesus told his disciples that the restoration of the KoH was not for them to know Acts 1:6-7 for only the father knew.
Also in Joel 2 the curse has to be lifted so creation can flourish which is tied into the latter rain. It hasn't happened yet for Christ is not visibly hear on earth and the curse is still here and the wolf and the lamb don't lie together Isaiah 11:6 etc.

6. The 1000 years being just the way God looks at time even though you could say that, is not true to the immediate context because there is an actual 1000 years between the First and Second Resurrection. Revelation 20:4-6.
The purpose of the millennial kingdom is to put down all sin and rebellion and get rid of death and for the Son to give the kingdom to the father so God will be all in all 1 Corinthians 15:24-28. When this happens and death is no more the KoG universal.
So the millennial or the first thousand year reign is before the completed perfect state when God will be all in all 1Corinthians 15:28; Revelation 21-22.
The KoG will engulf the KoH forever 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; Revelation 21:3: 22:5; Daniel 2:44-45; 7:13-14-18.
You need to learn the scriptural differences between the KoH and the KoG.
I have to go for it is late. Jerry kelso

 

[Douggg]

both saved "wheat" (sown by Christ), and unsaved "tares" (sown by Satan). Moreover, these wheat and tares look very similar,

and they are allowed to grow together - until they are separated during the "Final Harvest", which occurs at the "end-of-the-age".

Jim, it doesn't say that the wheat and tares look very similar. That is not the reason they are allowed to grow together. Perhaps you haven't done any gardening, but as you pull out weeds, the good plants can be damaged as well as the roots get inter-connected, as well as the soil clumped around the weed roots is the same soil used by the good plants.

In the text it says that in verse 29. 29. But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Has nothing to do with wheat and tares looking similar.

Hint: cutting and pasting Scripture means nothing without comments.
My comments HARMONIZED with everything you cut-and-pasted.
If you think otherwise all you need do is show some contradiction.

Jim, Jesus's explanation of the wheat and tares parable is perfectly presented as is. We don't need any additions by you. Jesus declared the meaning of the parable to the disciples in the text of Matthew 13:36-43.

 

[Douggg]

In Matthew 13 the Lord explains the THIRD "Kingdom of Heaven" (the Christian Kingdom -or- New Testament Church)

Jim, Jesus is not saying he is explaining "the Third" Kingdom of Heaven. "the Third" is something you are adding.

You would be correct, if you wrote -
In Matthew 13 the Lord explains the Kingdom of Heaven".
Leave your stuff out.

Instead, if you think there is a third kingdom of heaven - explain why the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 13 is the third Kingdom of Heaven. But don't make it out like Jesus is saying there is a third Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus never says third, second, fourth, fifth, first, none of those adjectives regarding the Kingdom of Heaven.

I want to know why YOU think the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 13 is a third Kingdom of Heaven. Don't tell me - because the text says so - because it doesn't.

Give me some sort of rationale, why you think the Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 13 is a third Kingdom of Heaven. It is because....... (you fill in the rest).
______________________________________________________________

The Kingdom of Heaven in Matthew 13, you have stated is..the Christian Kingdom -or- New Testament Church.

Jim, what is your basis for that statement? Don't tell me because the text names the Kingdom of Heaven as the Christian Kingdom - or - New testament Church, because the text doesn't have those words.

 

[5thKingdom]

6. The 1000 years being just the way God looks at time even though you could say that, is not true to the immediate context because there is an actual 1000 years between the First and Second Resurrection. Revelation 20:4-6.

First... It is YOU that needs to learn the difference between the FIVE "Kingdoms of Heaven"
which the Bible specifically NAMES.... and the ONE "Kingdom of God".

But let me ask you a simple question:

WHAT do you think the "first resurrection" represents?
I assume that you can (at least) DEFINE the terms you are talking about.

If you are really a Bible scholar you should be able to also tell me the REASON
why early Christians and the Catholic church and most Reformers disagree with you?
In other words (if you are a Bible scholar) you would already know BOTH SIDES of the
argument and WHY early Christians were A-Millennial.... WHY did they disagree with you?

You see (as I explained before) you do nothing when you cannot REFUTE anything
and are limited to only DENIAL. This issue has been discussed for almost 2000 years
and you act as if you discovered something new.

So tell me.... WHAT do you think the "first resurrection" represents?



.

 

[5thKingdom]

5. There is only one earthly sphere physically ever since creation which I explained by scripture already which Daniel called the Kingdom under the whole heaven Daniel 7:27 and the reign will be on this earth forever.
There is only one definition of the KoH reign which is when the King is here personally for Jesus offered them this kingdom but they rejected it Matthew 23:37-39.

Again... you intentionally ignored everything I showed you from the BIBLE
in order to express your "feelings" again-and-again-and-again.

It is the BIBLE that specifically NAMES the (5th) "Kingdom of Heaven"
It is the BIBLE that specifically NAMES the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven"
It is the BIBLE that specifically NAMES the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
It is the BIBLE that specifically NAMES the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"

Your fight is with the BIBLE (not with me)
Once again you INTENTIONALLY IGNORE the passages I provided you
in order to express your "feelings" again-and-again-and-again.

If you want to be taken seriously.... you must FIRST address the SCRIPTURES
which contradict your theories.

Explain WHY the Bible specifically NAMES these Kingdoms as "Kingdoms of Heaven"
and explain WHY you think the Bible is wrong?


.

 

[5thKingdom]

4. Btw, Augustine started much of the teaching about a- millennialism though he first believed in pre-millennialism. He changed because he thought pre-millennialism was carnal.
He also got messed up with fatalism and other doctrines that was thought to lean towards metaphysics because of some of secularism etc.
Augustine believed that if there was a literal scripture that didn't line up with science and supposed God given sense then the passage should be a metaphor.
This is another false belief from a-millennialists.
The Bible is inerrant and not science and man.

First... Augustine was teaching hundreds of years AFTER the Saints were preaching Rev 20.
And the Saints preaching in 70AD and 170AD and 270AD and 370AD were NOT preaching that
the Millennial Kingdom was a LITERAL 1000 years. So your entire argument above is bogus.

But again... don't let something like REALITY stand in your way.
The early Christians were A-Millennial, the early Catholic church was A-Millennial
and most Reformers were A-Millennial.

So tell me WHAT do you know that the early disciples and early church and Reformers
were too stupid to understand?

Now... let me ask you one more question... be sure to answer this with Scripture...
When do you think Satan was "bound" for the 1000 years?
Please be specific.


.

 

[5thKingdom]

5th kingdom,


3. Jesus is teaching them about the end of the age which deals with the nation of Israel and the Gentiles nation who will surround her at Jerusalem and Christ will step on the Mount of Olives and their will be an earthquake and Christ will destroy the kingdom of this world and take them for his own Zechariah 14:1-9; Revelation 13.

That is called your "interpretation".
Now harmonize THESE SCRIPTURES into your theory.

That "interpretation" was around for almost 2000 years.
But the Bible PROMISES that Daniel's prophecies would remain "sealed"
(from all Saints) until the "time-of-the-end or the "Season and Time" on earth
AFTER the Fourth Kingdom. [Dan 12:8-10, Mat 24:15,33]

So tell me... was the Bible correct when it PROMISED the truth would remain "sealed"?
And that ONLY the Saints "shall understand" the "unsealed" truth...

Or are you correct and the truth was NOT "sealed"... and the unsaved "shall understand"?

You cannot have it both ways.... either the BIBLE is wrong, or you are wrong.
Which do you think it is?


.



..

 

[5thKingdom]

5th kingdom,



2. The church will be raptured before the tribulation Revelation 4:1;5:9-10.
The rapture was a mystery in the Old covenant 1Corinthians 15:51.
The previous verse says flesh and blood will not inherit it which is talking about the Old Testament who have gone on before as well as the NC church.
The good seed are the children of the kingdom is not the For they are in Heaven before Revelation 4:1;5:9-10; 11:18 and 19:7-9 and come out of Heaven with the Lord Revelation 19:11-15-21 to do battle at Armageddon.
Since the church is not on earth during the tribulation they are not the children of the kingdom in Matthew 13:38.
You are basing your view on Matthew 13:30 as the Tares and wheat grow up together to be the church for you don't believe in a pre-trib rapture.
You are wrong about a post rapture by scripture.

There is so much wrong there I don't know where to start.

First.... Rev 4 does not represent a rapture... that is your "interpretation"
which contradicts DOZENS of passages.

Second... WHEN is this supposed "rapture" you talk about... at the Seventh Trumpet?
as 1 Co 15 says?

Third... of course Rev 19 includes the Saints already dead (from each kingdom)
and you misunderstand the command to "Come up here" because you intentionally ignore
all the SCRIPTURES that correct that interpretation.

Fourth... it is not ME that says the "wheat and tares" represent the Christian Kingdom,
it is the Lord Jesus Christ. And this (very simple) doctrine has been accepted by Saints
for almost 2000 years. Do you think it represents the JEWISH Kingdom?


.
Third

 

[5thKingdom]

5th kingdom,

1. The KoH message by Jesus was about offering the physical KoH earthly reign Matthew 4:17 for the Jews to rule at the head of the nations Isaiah 2:2-4;9:6-7;66:7-9 and this is what they wanted. for they were looking for a conquering Messiah Matthew 21:1-9.
However, the condition was for the nation to repent and they rejected him instead for they weren't looking for the suffering Savior Isaiah 53:1-7. The second time they will recognize him as the one whom they pierced Revelation 1:7 and they will be a nation born in one day Isaiah 66:8.

So you think that you are comparing ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES when you cite Mat 4:17.
You don't think it refers to the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" (which was "at hand")
You think it refers to the Pre-Flood Kingdom and the Jewish Kingdom and the Great Tribulation....
that is hilarious.

Secondly.... it is so naive that it is PAINFUL to see that you do not understand that the Bible OFTEN
uses terms like "Jerusalem" and "Israel" and "Judah" and "Holy Place" and "Holy City" and "Jews"
and "Sanctuary" and "Temple" (and DOZENS of other names) to represent the "Body of Christ"
consisting of ALL SAINTS from Adam to the last person saved.

Jerry.... pay attention now...
I have already provided you with about TWO DOZEN SCRIPTURES related to the
person called the Anti-Christ RULING over the "wheat and tares" of the Kingdom
during the Fourth Beast / the Revelation Beast / the Great Tribulation.

You have decided to INTENTIONALLY IGNORE all those verses...
as if that somehow negates the truth.

You have ZERO CREDIBILITY (and cannot be taken seriously) unless/until
you stop intentionally ignoring these Scriptures and you ADDRESS EACH ONE
to show how it harmonizes with your theories (because they do not).

Here are the passages again....
Let's see if you INTENTIONALLY IGNORE them again
(and then have the nerve to pretend you have an informed opinion)

---------------


Daniel's "Abomination of Desolation" is Satan RULING over the Last Saints (through the actions of his Anti-Christ)

during the Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” on earth. (aka the Revelations Beast/the Great Tribulation/Satan’s Little Season).

The following passages show the “Little Horn” or “False Prophet” RULING over the “wheat and tares” of the Fourth Beast.

Although the “wheat and tares” are called by many different names, such as: the “Kingdom”, and the “Holy Place” and

the “Temple of God”, and the “Host and Stars”, and the “Mighty and Holy People”, and the “Sanctuary and Host”

and the “Holy People”. The Anti-Christ RULING over the “wheat and tares” of the Fourth Beast is shown as:



(1) The “Abomination” of the Anti-Christ “standing” (ruling) in the “Holy Place” [Mat 24]

(2) The “Man of Sin” when he is revealed “sitting” (ruling) in the “Temple of God” [2Th2]


The first two examples show the Anti-Christ RULING during the (4th) Great Tribulation Kingdom.

The next three examples also show the Anti-Christ RULING during the same period – the Revelations Beast.

We now have five (5) examples of the Anti-Christ RULING over the “wheat and tares” during Daniel’s Fourth Beast.


(3) The “Ten Kings” that “agree to give their Kingdom unto the Beast” [Rev 17]

(4) The “Ten Horns” that “give their power and strength unto the Beast” [Rev 17]

(5) The tormenting “Locusts” who are “ruled” by a King named Apollyon [Rev 9]


However, the EVENT known as Daniel’s Abomination of Desolation is shown in many other passages of Scripture.

Below is a partial list of some passages showing Daniel’s Abomination RULING over Daniel’s Fourth Kingdom.

You cannot pretend to have an “informed opinion” on Daniel’s AOD unless all of these verses are harmonized.



(6) The “Horns” that were “plucked up” by the Anti-Christ [Dan 7]

(7) The “Host and Stars” that are “cast down” by the Anti-Christ. [Dan 8]

(8) The “Kingdom” which the Anti-Christ “obtains with flatteries” [Dan 11]

(9) The “Kingdom” that is “overflown” and “broken” by the Anti-Christ [Dan 11]

(10) The “Mighty and Holy People” who are “destroyed” by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

(11) The “Sanctuary and Host” that are “trodden under foot” by the Anti-Christ [Dan 8]

(12) The “Woman” which is hidden from the face of the “serpent” for 3.5 “times” [Rev 12]

(13) The “Holy People” whose “power is scattered” by the Anti-Christ for 3.5 “times” [Dan 12]

(14) The “Kings” that are “given into his hand” (into the Anti-Christ’s hand) for 3.5 “times” [Dan 7]

(15) The “Witnesses” which are first “overcome” and then are “killed” by Satan for 3.5 “days” [Rev 11]

(16) The “Holy City” which the Anti-Christ “treads under foot” for Forty-two months / 3.5 years [Rev 11]

(17) The “Arms” that “shall stand on his part” (stand with the Anti-Christ) and “pollute the Sanctuary” [Dan 11]

(18) The “Ten Virgins” who “went forth” preaching the Gospel of the Anti-Christ during the Fourth Kingdom [Mat 25]

(19) The “Sanctuary” being “polluted” by the Anti-Christ during Daniel’s Fourth “Kingdom of Heaven” [Dan 11]

-----------------

While the people alive during Daniel’s Fourth Kingdom are shown [Mat 25] as the “ten Virgins” that “went forth”

(into the Great Tribulation “Kingdom of Heaven”)… and they are shown [Dan 7] as the “ten Kings” and “ten Horns”

(that were “given into the hand” of the Anti-Christ)… and they are shown [Rev 17] as the “ten Kings” and the “ten Horns”

(that “agreed to give their Kingdom to the Beast”), the Bible contains (literally) DOZENS of other passages talking about

these same people and every one of the passages must be harmonized before we can pretend to have more than partial-truth.


You cannot even pretend to have found BIBLICAL TRUTH about a subject unless you can harmonize ALL SCRIPTURES

that are related to that subject. In the case of the people living on earth during the reign of the Anti-Christ (the Fourth Beast),

you must be able to harmonize ALL passages related to those people – regardless of the names they are called in that passage.

The doctrine of “harmony of Scripture” does not mean harmony of select passages… it means harmony of all related passages.

 

[jerry kelso]

First... It is YOU that needs to learn the difference between the FIVE "Kingdoms of Heaven"
which the Bible specifically NAMES.... and the ONE "Kingdom of God".

But let me ask you a simple question:

WHAT do you think the "first resurrection" represents?
I assume that you can (at least) DEFINE the terms you are talking about.

If you are really a Bible scholar you should be able to also tell me the REASON
why early Christians and the Catholic church and most Reformers disagree with you?
In other words (if you are a Bible scholar) you would already know BOTH SIDES of the
argument and WHY early Christians were A-Millennial.... WHY did they disagree with you?

You see (as I explained before) you do nothing when you cannot REFUTE anything
and are limited to only DENIAL. This issue has been discussed for almost 2000 years
and you act as if you discovered something new.

So tell me.... WHAT do you think the "first resurrection" represents?



.

5th kingdom,

1. There is no scripture that says specifically in a plain scripture that there is the first, Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth kingdom of Heaven as you portray.
You can say that the context involves the church dispensation or the law dispensation concerning the Jews which for the most part it is connected with Israel the nation Israel 2:2-4; 9:6-7; 66:7-9 and their gifts and callings Romans 11:29. This stems from their part in their earthly calling from the Abrahamic Covenant Genesis 12-15 and the Davidic Covenant 2 Samuel 1:16 1Chronoicles 28:2-10; Isaiah 9:6-7. These are eternal covenants conditioned on obedience of the nation of Israel.

2. There is one physical KoG that is physical and I the whole universe Psalm 109:19; Colossians 1:10-18; 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 and one KoG that is spiritual Matthew 6:33; Luke 17:20; Romans 14:17.

3. The first resurrection concerns believers Revelation 20:4-6; Daniel 12:3; John 5:28-29.
It includes Adam to the millennium.
It covers the period from Christ's resurrection who was the firstfruit 1 Corinthians 15:20 to the tribulation saints Revelation 6:9-11; 7-14; 13:7; 14:13; 15:1-2 and the two witnesses Revelation 11:8-12 and the 144,000 sealed Jews Revelation 7-8; 14:1-5; 15:1-2.
This resurrection is called the out resurrection from being called out from among the dead (Philippians 3:11-14; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Luke 14:14; 20:35-36; Hebrews 11:35; Revelation 20:4-6) Dake's God's Plan For Man pg. 833 The First Resurrection.

3. Revelation 20:4-6 that are actually resurrected at that time are those that didn't take the mark of the beast etc.
This group is in Revelation 15:1-2 which is before the last 7 vials which is for the beast kingdom worshippers. Those in Revelation 15:1-2 are part of the blessed dead.

4. The Jews understood the last day resurrection in John 5:28-29.
They understood the kingdom promises throughout all the Old Testament which I've already given the scriptures.
In Hebrews 6 the Jews were to leave the principles of Christ which was the law of Moses and go onto perfection which was the New Covenant. They were not lay down again the foundation of different doctrines which one was the resurrection of the dead.
It shows that for the New Covenant resurrection was a mystery 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

5. The Catholic Church interpreted Matthew 16:18-19 thinking the NC church was the context of the KoH in the church dispensation when Peter was given the keys to the KoH. They were wrong and this is where Peter as the Head of Apostolic Succession for the Church which became the Catholic Church which means universal.
They were and still are wrong scripturallly and historically from the scriptures.
In the early church they were all called the church of whatever city they were in.
Peter was not ever called the Apostle of Rome alone or with Paul.
Paul was not called the Apostle of Rome Romans 1:1 though he wrote a letter and requested if be any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you Romans 1:10.
Romans 16:23; Gaius was the host and of the whole church.
The whole AS from Peter is a farce from the Catholic Church to be the only true church.
The Cc had a lot of good doctrines but they mixed in men's doctrines in most of their history just like the Jewish leaders Matthew 15:3,6,9, so who would want to believe them? The hierarchy will be judged for the evil they have done concerning their misleading people with their false doctrine. Jerry kelso

 

[5thKingdom]

5th kingdom,

1. There is no scripture that says specifically in a plain scripture that there is the first, Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth kingdom of Heaven as you portray.


3. The first resurrection concerns believers Revelation 20:4-6; Daniel 12:3; John 5:28-29.
It includes Adam to the millennium.

First... this is my last message to you.
It is not a matter of whether the Bible "says specifically in plain language....
that is not the way the Bible was written - or else the Jews would have understood
there was another TWO Kingdoms after theirs and before the Lord Returned.

I have given you Scriptures specifically NAMING the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"
You do not care.... you do not even TRY to refute the Scripture (you intentionally ignore them)

I have given you Scriptures specifically NAMING the (4th) Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven... you do not care... and you do not even TRY to refute
the Scripture (you simply intentionally ignore the Scripture)

I have given you Scriptures specificallly NAMING the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
but you don't care... you do not even TRY to refute the Scriptures (you only ignore them)

I have given you Scripture specifically NAMING the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven"
but you don't care... you do not even TRY to refute the Scripture (you just ignore instead)

That is your right... you can intentionally ignore Scripture.
But you cannot pretend to have found truth when you do so.

-------

Secondly... you do not even understand what the FIRST RESURECTiON represents.
I explained it to you.... I gave you SCRIPTURES supporting the Biblical truth....
but you just do not care. Therefore it is a waste of my time to talk to you
because you do not even TRY to harmonize Scripture. How sad:

Simply put: The "First Resurrection" is when we are "born again"
It is when we go from spiritual DEATH to spiritual LIFE
When we are "translated" into the KOG.

-----

While the redemption of our bodies does not occur until the Seventh Trumpet, our souls are redeemed when we become saved.

The souls of Saints enter into the "Kingdom of God" when we are indwelt with His Holy Spirit and our soul is "born again".

The "dead" souls of the Saints enter into the eternal "Kingdom of God" when they are "raised" by the Holy Spirit of God.

The "quickening" of our dead souls, as we are "born again" by the indwelling Holy Spirit of God, is the point in time

when we (our souls) are taken out of the "Kingdom of Babylon" and translated into the eternal "Kingdom of God".


Eph 2:5 Even when we were DEAD in sins, hath QUICKENED us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath RAISED US up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:


John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water [the Gospel]

and of the Spirit [and of the Holy Spirit], he cannot enter into the KINGDOM OF GOD.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh: and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.


While we enter into the temporal "Kingdom of Heaven" when we become associated with, and preach the Gospel of, one of Daniel's

four earthly Kingdoms - we enter into the eternal "Kingdom of God" when we (our souls) are "translated" from the spiritual death

of Satan's "Kingdom of Babylon" and we (our souls) are "regenerated" or "born again" by the "indwelling" Holy Spirit of God.

While our souls are redeemed when we are "raised" or "quickened" by His Spirit, our bodies are redeemed at the Last Trump.


(11) The "Kingdom of God" represents the Holy Spirit of God - and those "indwelt" with His Spirit.
The "Kingdom of God" represents the souls (but not the bodies) of those who are "born again" (saved)
in each of Daniel's four "Kingdoms of Heaven", and those within the (5th) Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven"


While there are FIVE "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth... there's only ONE "Kingdom of God".

Daniel's four Kingdoms are physical Kingdoms - the "Kingdom of God" is a spiritual Kingdom.


After understanding the difference between the (five) "Kingdoms of Heaven" and the (one) "Kingdom of God",

the next question becomes: What is the Biblical definition of the phrase "Kingdom of Babylon"? Throughout the

Christian Kingdom, Saints could never understand "Babylon the Great", which is demonstrated as the Bible [Rev 17:5]

actually NAMES this Kingdom "Mystery Babylon". We now reveal the "unsealed" mystery of the "Kingdom of Babylon".



.