How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

[zoidar]

Does it say that?

I like to quote Chrysostom for you:

John 12:40​

"He has blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, lest they at any time should see with their eyes, and understand with their heart."

"Here again is another question, but it is not so if we rightly consider it. For as the sun dazzles the eyes of the weak, not by reason of its proper nature, so it is with those who give not heed to the words of God. Thus, in the case of Pharaoh, He is said to have hardened his heart, and so it is with those who are at all contentious against the words of God. This is a peculiar mode of speech in Scripture, as also the, He gave them over unto a reprobate mind [ Romans 1:28 ], and the, He divided them to the nations, that is, allowed, permitted them to go. For the writer does not here introduce God as Himself working these things, but shows that they took place through the wickedness of others.

For, when we are abandoned by God, we are given up to the devil, and when so given up, we suffer ten thousand dreadful things. To terrify the hearer, therefore, the writer says, He hardened, and gave over. For to show that He does not only not give us over, but does not even leave us, except we will it, hear what He says, Do not your iniquities separate between Me and you? [ Isaiah 59:2, Septuagint ]. And again, They that go far away from You shall perish. [ Psalm 73:27, Septuagint ] And Hosea says, You have forgotten the law of your God, and I will also forget you [ Hosea 4:6, Septuagint ]; and He says Himself also in the Gospels, How often would I have gathered your children— and you would not. [ Luke 13:34 ] Esaias also again, I came, and there was no man; I called, and there was none to hearken. [ Isaiah 50:2, Septuagint ]

These things He says, showing that we begin the desertion, and become the causes of our perdition; for God not only desires not to leave or to punish us, but even when He punishes, does it unwillingly; I will not, He says, the death of a sinner, so much as that he should turn and live. [ Ezekiel 18:32, Septuagint ] Christ also mourns over the destruction of Jerusalem, as we also do over our friends.

 

[zoidar]

That’s another argument from silence. Why not all of six? Or some of 65? You skipped 26 whole verses to make it say what you wanted.

I think it’s best to let Jesus speak what He wants to speak, even if it

No, not an argument from silence. I was thinking of posting the whole chapters, but felt it would be too much. Isaiah 5 describes the evil of the people. And Isaiah 6 acknowleges this, they have unclean lips. It's not specifically mentioned that this is the reason God hardens their heart, but it's hard to come to another conclusion from reading the text.

 

[BBAS 64]

Look at the passages in Isaiah chapter 5-6 where you find the quote. Then you might get a better picture of what is going on.

... But they do not pay attention to the deeds of the Lord,
Nor do they consider the work of His hands.
— Isaiah 5:12

And one called out to another and said,
“Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory.”
And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke. Then I said,
“Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.”
Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven.” Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand.’
“Render the hearts of this people insensitive,
Their ears dull,
And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed.”
— Isaiah 6:3-10

Good Day, Zoidar

Jesus quotes Isa 6 here:

Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

 

[Lost4words]

I’m sure He did. But that’s not the scope of the OP.

To me, it seems to cover it perfectly.

 

[Hammster]

To me, it seems to cover it perfectly.

Okay, but that’s not the scope of the OP. The scope is what was happening at that time, prior to the crucifixion.

 

[zoidar]

Does it say that?

“He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”
— John 12:40

I'm sure you believe the reason that God hardened their heart was so they wouldn't see, be converted and healed.

Are you sure that it's describing reason, and not the consequence of God hardening their heart, that they wouldn't see, be converted and healed?

 

[Hammster]

“He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”
— John 12:40

I'm sure you believe the reason that God hardened their heart was so they wouldn't see, be converted and healed.

Are you sure that it's describing reason, and not the consequence of God hardening their heart, that they wouldn't see, be converted and healed?

What’s the difference?

 

[zoidar]

What’s the difference?

Maybe the intention of God being different? Then the intention for hardening them was not that they wouldn't be converted and healed. The intention was to harden them because of their stubborness and that lead them to not being converted and healed.

Not saying this is where I stand, just sharing thoughts.

 

[Hammster]

Maybe the intention of God being different? Then the intention for hardening them was not that they wouldn't be converted and healed. The intention was to harden them because of their stubborness and that lead them to not being converted and healed.

Why would they need their hearts hardened, then?

 

[Lost4words]

Okay, but that’s not the scope of the OP. The scope is what was happening at that time, prior to the crucifixion.

You need to word it differently then my friend

 

[Hammster]

You need to word it differently then my friend

The question was clear with the context of the passage.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

If He wants to save everyone, why did He specifically tell the disciples not to go to the Gentiles or to Samaria?

Because He had to go to Israel first per the prophecies...I mean you could say the same regarding Adam, if He wanted to save everyone, He would of with Adam, or made Adam without free will

 

[zoidar]

Why would they need their hearts hardened, then?

I have some ideas, but it gets much into speculation. I'm fine with the idea that God's reason for hardening them was so they would not be converted. What I'm not fine with is God doing this without it being their own fault.

 

[Hammster]

Because He had to go to Israel first per the prophecies...I mean you could say the same regarding Adam, if He wanted to save everyone, He would of with Adam, or made Adam without free will

So even the prophecies show that He wasn’t trying to save everyone.

 

[Hammster]

I have some ideas, but it gets much into speculation. I'm fine with the idea that God's reason for hardening them was so they would not be converted. What I'm not fine with is God doing this without it being their own fault.

Are you suggesting that these were somehow worse sinners?

 

[zoidar]

Are you suggesting that these were somehow worse sinners?

More responsible sinners. Worse sinners in the sense, they should know better. They had the prophecies about Jesus and had seen the signs and miracles but denied him. Many even believed (to the contrary of Isaiah I might add), yet denied him anyway.

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
— John 12:42-43

I have to ask you, do you suggest that all sinners are the same?

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

Jesus quotes Isa 6 here:

Mat 13:10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

Maybe Jesus talked in parables so those who had hardened heart wouldn't understand it.

He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land. And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching, “Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow;
— Mark 4:1-3

As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.”
— Mark 4:10-12

You think he taught the crowd in parables so they wouldn't understand a thing? That would be pretty much a waste of time.

With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; and He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.
— Mark 4:33-34

 

[zoidar]

I have some ideas, but it gets much into speculation. I'm fine with the idea that God's reason for hardening them was so they would not be converted. What I'm not fine with is God doing this without it being their own fault.

I want to add to this, even they were hardened at this time does not mean it's a permanent hardening.

But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
— 2 Corinthians 3:15-16

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

So even the prophecies show that He wasn’t trying to save everyone.

No it shows there was a plan that was to be followed....Isaiah 55:8-9

 

[Hammster]

More responsible sinners. Worse sinners in the sense, they should know better. They had the prophecies about Jesus and had seen the signs and miracles but denied him. Many even believed (to the contrary of Isaiah I might add), yet denied him anyway.

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
— John 12:42-43

I have to ask you, do you suggest that all sinners are the same?

They are the same in the sense that they are all undeserving.