How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

[Hammster]

No it shows there was a plan that was to be followed....Isaiah 55:8-9

Right. Which means He wasn’t trying to save everyone.

 

[Hammster]

The point of this thread is to show that God does not try to save everyone. Even in Christ’s time on earth He didn’t try to preach the gospel to everyone, going as far as telling His disciples to avoid certain peoples. There’s no way to reconcile that fact with the notion that God wants everyone saved.

 

[zoidar]

They are the same in the sense that they are all undeserving.

That I can agree with.

 

[zoidar]

The point of this thread is to show that God does not try to save everyone. Even in Christ’s time on earth He didn’t try to preach the gospel to everyone, going as far as telling His disciples to avoid certain peoples. There’s no way to reconcile that fact with the notion that God wants everyone saved.

I don't think you made a very strong case for your position, though you seem to think so. There are ways to show you are wrong, like Christ showing people the way to salvation who rejects him.

Of course that is not showing God wants everyone saved, but that God wants people saved who isn't. I think though, you shouldn't say "try" and "want" is the same.

All Jews were circumcised, and all Jews weren't saved. Does that mean God tried to save people that weren't? It's not showing either or. If God wanted them saved is another matter.

 

[ralliann]

Perhaps the salvation Chirst brought is more inclusive than we give it credit for. Also the one thing that stands out between Jew and Gentile is the Jews were the ones who were under the Law. So perhaps they needed a level of salvation that the Gentiles didn't. It seems that those who were under the Law and knew the most about it, were under the greater level of wrath.

I think Christianity has lost sight of life after death, the next world and the next life. Heaven so to speak. Salvation through Christ is ultimately about Salvation from death itself. Jew's were under a curse, God's wrath was coming upon them by the law (Sinai covenant). This is what John's baptism was for an escape from the wrath that was coming. I believe it is a worldly wrath due to their purpose under the law as a nation. Those given much, much is expected sort of thing. They were called out of Egypt to bring God's Judgement on the nations to inherit an earthly, worldly nation. It was not a salvation from the death we die in Adam.

While Jesus only sent his disciples to the Jews, the Jews were also the only ones whom Jesus was condemning. What Gentiles did Jesus ever call sons of the devil or a brood of vipers etc? I don't recall Jesus ever expressing wrath towards any Gentile. I just remember encounters like Him praising the faith of the Roman centurion, while at the same time admonishing the Jews for their lack of faith.

If we read the law, It speaks (prophesies) about it.. That God would bring punishment on the nation of Israel for breaking the covenant they were under. It is a series of judgements, of the various nations they are exiled into.
Then when he was finished, he would turn his wrath on the nations for how they treated Israel.
So, I believe this is why the Jew first then the Gentile.

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:10-12

Jew's were baptised by John, a baptism of repentance to escape the wrath of God. The punishments as series, between each series is to give them time to repent. Those that did not,had the next series to come. The apostles as disciples of Jesus continued this baptism during Christs ministry. Notice with Cornelious.
Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
He was baptized in the holy spirit first, then after, they baptized him in water. But Jew's the baptism of John was first.
There is earthly worldly salvation, but in Christ, we are saved to the uttermost, from death itself that all men die.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Right. Which means He wasn’t trying to save everyone.

No, that is not what it means...

 

[Hammster]

I don't think you made a very strong case for your position, though you seem to think so. There are ways to show you are wrong, like Christ showing people the way to salvation who rejects him.

Then you missed the point. I never said anything about people rejecting Him. I’m talking about people He deliberately avoided. That’s not love.

 

[zoidar]

Then you missed the point. I never said anything about people rejecting Him. I’m talking about people He deliberately avoided. That’s not love.

I think you are missing my point.

There are no such people. The proof is in the cross. He was punished for the sin of every single person.

 

[John Mullally]

Then you missed the point. I never said anything about people rejecting Him. I’m talking about people He deliberately avoided. That’s not love.

Given God's infinite wisdom and Jesus's limited time on earth who can make any doctrinal observations (like you do) out of Jesus's decision to avoid a private audience with some Greeks?

Jesus has proved His love for humanity by suffering for all humanity (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10). And God desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9). IT IS WRITTEN.

 

[zoidar]

Given God's infinite wisdom and Jesus's limited time on earth who can make any doctrinal observations (like you do) out of Jesus's decision to avoid a private audience with some Greeks?

Jesus has proved His love for humanity by suffering for all humanity (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10). And God desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9). IT IS WRITTEN.

What a saviour we have!

 

[BBAS 64]

Maybe Jesus talked in parables so those who had hardened heart wouldn't understand it.

He began to teach again by the sea. And such a very large crowd gathered to Him that He got into a boat in the sea and sat down; and the whole crowd was by the sea on the land. And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching, “Listen to this! Behold, the sower went out to sow;
— Mark 4:1-3

As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, “To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing, they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven.”
— Mark 4:10-12

You think he taught the crowd in parables so they wouldn't understand a thing? That would be pretty much a waste of time.

With many such parables He was speaking the word to them, so far as they were able to hear it; and He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.
— Mark 4:33-34

Good Day, Zoidar

It is in the text:

To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables

some are given to know the secrets, while others it has not been given.

The one ( you) who knows more will be given
The others (them) who do not know, what little they have will be taking away.

That is why he speaks to them in Parables.

In Him,


Bill

 

[John Mullally]

What a saviour we have!

Amen!

1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach..​

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

It is in the text:

To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables

some are given to know the secrets, while others it has not been given.

The one ( you) who knows more will be given
The others (them) who do not know, what little they have will be taking away.

That is why he speaks to them in Parables.

In Him,


Bill

For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
— Matthew 13:12

I think Jesus speaks of two different persons, the one who believes and the one who doesn't. He who believes will be given more, even eternal life and the one who doesn't believe will lose out even on the things he thought he owned.

“Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he puts it on a lampstand, so that those who come in may see the light. For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light. So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
— Luke 8:16-18

He that has an open heart for truth will hear, he with a closed heart for truth won't.

Quoting Adam Clarke:

"Therefore speak I to them in parables - On this account, viz. to lead them into a proper knowledge of God. I speak to them in parables, natural representations of spiritual truths, that they may be allured to inquire, and to find out the spirit, which is hidden under the letter; because, seeing the miracles which I have wrought, they see not, i.e. the end for which I have wrought them; and hearing my doctrines, they hear not, so as to profit by what is spoken; neither do they understand, ουδε συνιουσι, they do not lay their hearts to it. Is not this obviously our Lord's meaning? Who can suppose that he would employ his time in speaking enigmatically to them, on purpose that they might not understand what was spoken? Could the God of truth and sincerity act thus? If he had designed to act otherwise, he might have saved his time and labor, and not spoken at all, which would have answered the same end, viz. to leave them in gross ignorance."

 

[Hammster]

I think you are missing my point.

There are no such people. The proof is in the cross. He was punished for the sin of every single person.

There are such people. For instance, how many in Japan heard the gospel in 30 AD?

 

[Hammster]

Given God's infinite wisdom and Jesus's limited time on earth who can make any doctrinal observations (like you do) out of Jesus's decision to avoid a private audience with some Greeks?

Jesus has proved His love for humanity by suffering for all humanity (1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 4:10). And God desires all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9). IT IS WRITTEN.

It’s a practical distinction. And it’s one you’ll continue to avoid by relying on you misunderstanding of the above verses. You refuse to deal with the actual argument.

 

[BBAS 64]

For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
— Matthew 13:12

I think Jesus speaks of two different persons, the one who believes and the one who doesn't. He who believes will be given more, even eternal life and the one who doesn't believe will lose out even on the things he thought he owned.

“Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed; but he puts it on a lampstand, so that those who come in may see the light. For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light. So take care how you listen; for whoever has, to him more shall be given; and whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has shall be taken away from him.”
— Luke 8:16-18

He that has an open heart for truth will hear, he with a closed heart for truth won't.

Quoting Adam Clarke:

"Therefore speak I to them in parables - On this account, viz. to lead them into a proper knowledge of God. I speak to them in parables, natural representations of spiritual truths, that they may be allured to inquire, and to find out the spirit, which is hidden under the letter; because, seeing the miracles which I have wrought, they see not, i.e. the end for which I have wrought them; and hearing my doctrines, they hear not, so as to profit by what is spoken; neither do they understand, ουδε συνιουσι, they do not lay their hearts to it. Is not this obviously our Lord's meaning? Who can suppose that he would employ his time in speaking enigmatically to them, on purpose that they might not understand what was spoken? Could the God of truth and sincerity act thus? If he had designed to act otherwise, he might have saved his time and labor, and not spoken at all, which would have answered the same end, viz. to leave them in gross ignorance."

Good day, Zoidar

Yes two peoples (you and them)

To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables

some are given to know the secrets, while others it has not been given.

The one ( you) who knows more will be given
The others (them) who do not know, what little they have will be taking away.

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good day, Zoidar

Yes two peoples (you and them)

To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables

some are given to know the secrets, while others it has not been given.

The one ( you) who knows more will be given
The others (them) who do not know, what little they have will be taking away.

In Him,

Bill

It's been given to those that believe. It's not the belief that has been given.

 

[zoidar]

There are such people. For instance, how many in Japan heard the gospel in 30 AD?

How many heard the gospel before the time of Abraham? Does that mean God left out those people from the gospel?

 

[BBAS 64]

It's been given to those that believe. It's not the belief that has been given.

Good Day, Zoidar

Agreed!

The secrets of the kingdom are given to the adopted children of God, the unadopted are not given the secrets.

The parables are meant (purposed and quite effective) for them (unadopted) to take away any knowledge they have.

"but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables"

(two groups)

In Him,

Bill

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Zoidar

Agreed!

The secrets of the kingdom are given to the adopted children of God, the unadopted are not given the secrets.

The parables are meant (purposed and quite effective) for them (unadopted) to take away any knowledge they have.

"but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables"

(two groups)

In Him,

Bill

Where do you get the idea that it is the knowledge that is been taken away?