How Long is an Hour?

[Luke17:37]

Um.. that verse says that Jesus reigns. The words "physical" and "bodily" you're putting those in from your own imagination. You guys really have to stop doing that.

Come on, that's the context.

Do you not believe in a bodily return of Jesus Christ? If so, you're called a scoffer by 2 Peter 3:3-9.

 

[Luke17:37]

That's a good start but I recommend you look up "progressive parallelism" and how it's used in Revelation. You'll find that chapter 20 is actually a summary of the preceding chapters.

Chapter 20 is definitely distinct from the earlier chapters, which are primarily about the Tribulation.

 

[LastSeven]

Doesn't matter what

It doesn’t matter what I think it means, it doesn’t say “he stays in heaven until the new earth”.

That’s how you interpret it. Remember your it doesn’t say He returns before the millennium argument.

It doesn't matter what it means? Really?

It says he stays in heaven until the time of the restoration of all things. So what is the restoration of all things if not the restoration of creation?

 

[LastSeven]

Come on, that's the context.

Do you not believe in a bodily return of Jesus Christ? If so, you're called a scoffer by 2 Peter 3:3-9.

Listen. I never said he doesn't return to earth. I said he doesn't return to earth to reign for 1000 years.

Clearly, when he comes, we are resurrected, and he hands over the kingdom to God the father. This is what it says in 1 Corinthians 15. If you can't see that, then you don't want to see that. There is no interpretation required. No context required. No assumptions required. It just says it plain as day.

 

[LastSeven]

That is the clear context of the passage.

Context? Really?

You can use context to discern meaning, not insert it. There's a big difference. You are inserting words and you know it. You just think it makes sense to do so because you're convinced he reigns on earth. I know why you do it. I just wish you'd admit that you're doing it.

You can bring out scriptures from Psalms and Isaiah and Zechariah and wherever else you can find them that talk about paradise on earth, and you say it sounds like the thousand years for whatever reason, but since they don't specifically say they are referencing the thousand year reign you can't use such nebulous evidence to contradict clear scripture such as Acts 3:21. Acts 3:21 clearly tells us when Jesus returns to earth and it's not at the start of the thousand years.

You must always interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scripture, and if scripture "A" says "1 + 2 = 3" then you can't say "well actually I think it means 4 because scripture "B" says 4 is the sum of two other numbers and scripture "C" mentions 1 and 2 together in the same verse and it seems to make sense to me so therefore 1 + 2 = 4".

You could do that if there was nothing contradictory in scripture (although even then you'd have to include a disclaimer) but in this case there clearly is.

 

[LastSeven]

No, He's already been there for a thousand years in Revelation 20:9.

sigh. It doesn't say that.

 

[Luke17:37]

It doesn't matter what it means? Really?

It says he stays in heaven until the time of the restoration of all things. So what is the restoration of all things if not the restoration of creation?

The restoration of creation is simply restoring the cursed world and removing the curse. Before the curse, there wasn't pain in childbirth. Before the curse, animals and men lived in peace. Before the curse, animals were vegetarian (so were men). These things and more will be reversed during Jesus' earthly reign. The last thing to go will be death itself.

A new heavens and a new earth is completely new creation (starting over from scratch). The millenium is about Jesus bringing healing to the existing earth and heavens by taking away most of the effects of the curse. The new heavens and new earth will be a reality after the great white throne judgment and the banishment of people without Christ to the Lake of Fire.

 

[Luke17:37]

Listen. I never said he doesn't return to earth. I said he doesn't return to earth to reign for 1000 years.

Clearly, when he comes, we are resurrected, and he hands over the kingdom to God the father. This is what it says in 1 Corinthians 15. If you can't see that, then you don't want to see that. There is no interpretation required. No context required. No assumptions required. It just says it plain as day.

It's plain as day that there's a thousand years between the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the resurrection of the rest of the dead. You'd rather reject a whole chapter because of your assumption that the handing over of the kingdom to full removal of the curse (death) is immediate.

 

[Luke17:37]

Context? Really?

You can use context to discern meaning, not insert it. There's a big difference. You are inserting words and you know it. You just think it makes sense to do so because you're convinced he reigns on earth. I know why you do it. I just wish you'd admit that you're doing it.

You can bring out scriptures from Psalms and Isaiah and Zechariah and wherever else you can find them that talk about paradise on earth, and you say it sounds like the thousand years for whatever reason, but since they don't specifically say they are referencing the thousand year reign you can't use such nebulous evidence to contradict clear scripture such as Acts 3:21. Acts 3:21 clearly tells us when Jesus returns to earth and it's not at the start of the thousand years.

You must always interpret less clear scripture in light of more clear scripture, and if scripture "A" says "1 + 2 = 3" then you can't say "well actually I think it means 4 because scripture "B" says 4 is the sum of two other numbers and scripture "C" mentions 1 and 2 together in the same verse and it seems to make sense to me so therefore 1 + 2 = 4".

You could do that if there was nothing contradictory in scripture (although even then you'd have to include a disclaimer) but in this case there clearly is.

It looks like we're wasting each other's time. There's no point in continuing back and forth. What you think is "proof" I don't and what I think is clear, you call allegory. Good day.

 

[LastSeven]

It's plain as day that there's a thousand years between the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the resurrection of the rest of the dead. You'd rather reject a whole chapter because of your assumption that the handing over of the kingdom to full removal of the curse (death) is immediate.

Don't you know that both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected together?

 

[LastSeven]

It looks like we're wasting each other's time. There's no point in continuing back and forth. What you think is "proof" I don't and what I think is clear, you call allegory. Good day.

I'm sorry that you feel it's a waste of time.

 

[Luke17:37]

Don't you know that both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected together?

Not according to Revelation chapter 20.

 

[LastSeven]

Actually, even Revelation 20, although it says there are two resurrections, it doesn't give us any information about the second resurrection. Revelation 20 says "the rest of the dead", regarding the second resurrection, but that does not require that the righteous can't be resurrected along with the rest of the dead.

The first resurrection is for the righteous, and the righteous only. I think we can agree on that.

But the Bible talks about a resurrection that includes both the righteous and the wicked. By process of elimination we know that this must be the second resurrection.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[BABerean2]

Not according to Revelation chapter 20.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(This is present tense at the time of the 7th trumpet.)


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

One group rewarded and another group destroyed at the time of the judgment of the dead.
.

 

[Luke17:37]

Actually, even Revelation 20, although it says there are two resurrections, it doesn't give us any information about the second resurrection. Revelation 20 says "the rest of the dead", regarding the second resurrection, but that does not require that the righteous can't be resurrected along with the rest of the dead.

The first resurrection is for the righteous, and the righteous only. I think we can agree on that.

But the Bible talks about a resurrection that includes both the righteous and the wicked. By process of elimination we know that this must be the second resurrection.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Yes, of course, if any righteous die in the thousand years, they will be included in the second resurrection. But the entire Church of the complete history up until Jesus return will be raised in the first resurrection, when Jesus comes.

 

[Luke17:37]

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
(This is present tense at the time of the 7th trumpet.)


Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

One group rewarded and another group destroyed at the time of the judgment of the dead.
.

I actually believe Revelation 20.

Haven't you read Revelation 19:21 and Zechariah 14:12-15? The wicked are killed by Jesus when He returns (Isaiah 26:21)... especially those gathered in His land (Isaiah 27:12). This is a form of judgment, even though it isn't the final judgment (the Great White Throne Judgment) which culminates in the wicked being thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[LastSeven]

Yes, of course, if any righteous die in the thousand years, they will be included in the second resurrection. But the entire Church of the complete history up until Jesus return will be raised in the first resurrection, when Jesus comes.

o.k. so that gives us a starting point. Now let's put the rest of the pieces together.

Daniel 12
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Notice that Daniel is told he will rest and not rise until the end of days.

Now, do you think this resurrection he's been promised is at the start of the thousand years, or at the end?

 

[Luke17:37]

Actually, even Revelation 20, although it says there are two resurrections, it doesn't give us any information about the second resurrection. Revelation 20 says "the rest of the dead", regarding the second resurrection, but that does not require that the righteous can't be resurrected along with the rest of the dead.

The first resurrection is for the righteous, and the righteous only. I think we can agree on that.

But the Bible talks about a resurrection that includes both the righteous and the wicked. By process of elimination we know that this must be the second resurrection.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

God is just saying that all will be resurrected. It doesn't mean they are resurrected at the same time. There can be a thousand years or so between the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the rest. There's nothing in those verses precluding that.

I don't understand how you can take two verses and cling to your one view of them and summarily reject an entire chapter (Revelation 20) which says Jesus has a thousand year reign on this earth.

Do you remember the passage in Isaiah that Jesus quoted part of in the synagogue? He stopped speaking halfway through the verse--only quoting the portion He had fulfilled to that point. The rest of it will be fulfilled when He comes again. It's the same Person (Jesus), and it's truth, but it's spanning more than two thousand years. We know that today because we have the benefit of history.

Isaiah 61:1-3
"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me,
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,
3 To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified.”

 

[LastSeven]

It's plain as day that there's a thousand years between the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the resurrection of the rest of the dead. You'd rather reject a whole chapter because of your assumption that the handing over of the kingdom to full removal of the curse (death) is immediate.

Just to be clear, I'm not rejecting anything. The entire chapter of Revelation 20 fits perfectly with all the other verses I've shown you, including 1 Corinthians 15. The key to making it all fit, is understanding the resurrections.

 

[Luke17:37]

o.k. so that gives us a starting point. Now let's put the rest of the pieces together.

Daniel 12
As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

Notice that Daniel is told he will rest and not rise until the end of days.

Now, do you think this resurrection he's been promised is at the start of the thousand years, or at the end?

Daniel is a believer. I expect him to be included in the first resurrection, which includes the believers. This is the end of days as we know it. If this resurrection is only the Church as in only people who lived after Jesus and accepted the gospel, then he wouldn't be included, but I personally imagine God will include those He saved by faith prior to Jesus' arrival. If not, well, that's up to God, but my point is, I believe in a literal thousand years in between the resurrections.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.