How long has man been created.

[mpok1519]

Coming from someone who is not even capable of mixing scripture with scripture? Truly authoritative.

Have absolutely no idea what you intend to communicate with that statement. Makes no sense to me, really.

Isaiah 40:22

He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in."​

That reveals that the Bible stated the world is not flat long ago while men were commonly thinking it is flat. And, it also revealed that there is a (atmospheric) boundary around the earth. How could anyone begin to know that back then? That states that what is directly above the earth did not simply continue on forever into space. It was like a tent. How could anyone back then know?


Just a lucky metaphor?


.

Yes; a metaphor that can be interpretted many differet ways. "Above the circle of the earth" can be many things. The moon. The sun. Etc. Canopy does not denote anything of this nature. Tent can be interpretted as anything you really want it. Theres no coorelation or relation to the mechanics of earth's atmosphere in a scientifically objective sense. Also, what does throne mean? Is it a real throne, or is this too a metaphorical throne? It doesn't matter really, because its all metaphorical.

You can look at an abstract painting and see whatever you want. Same with the Bible; luckily, people have been smart enough not to simply believe what someone else says it says.

 

[fwwid]

Coming from someone who is not even capable of mixing scripture with scripture? Truly authoritative.

Here is something I found in my shoe closet.

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

​

That reveals that the Bible stated the world is not flat long ago while men were commonly thinking it is flat. And, it also revealed that there is a (atmospheric) boundary around the earth. How could anyone begin to know that back then? That states that what is directly above the earth did not simply continue on forever into space. It was like a tent. How could anyone back then know?


Just a lucky metaphor?




.

Haha, evidently it is a metaphor Genez because as you well know, a circle is not a sphere - it is the difference between (3.14 • r²) & (4/3 • 3.14 • r³). In other words, a circle can be flat and there's no reason to believe the contrary when you consider that EVERYBODY from that time believed the world to be flat. The notion that (according to you) SOOOOO MAAAANNY people understood that the world was indeed a sphere and not flat is both preposterous and absurd at best. Why would they not share this knowledge with the world if that's what they knew? This testifies that your interpretation of this scripture is outrageous - big surprise .

 

[JS-POG]

Coming from someone who is not even capable of mixing scripture with scripture? Truly authoritative.

Here is something I found in my shoe closet.

Isaiah 40:22
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in."

​

That reveals that the Bible stated the world is not flat long ago while men were commonly thinking it is flat. And, it also revealed that there is a (atmospheric) boundary around the earth. How could anyone begin to know that back then? That states that what is directly above the earth did not simply continue on forever into space. It was like a tent. How could anyone back then know?


Just a lucky metaphor?




.

Where is there a discussion of an atmosphere? Where does it say that the earth is a sphere and not a flat circle? Circles can be flat you know?

 

[GenemZ]

Love how some say a Christian can take the liberty to to interpret Scripture any way they wish. And, then you turn right around to show us how its done.


Lucky metaphor. Just lucky.

 

[Assyrian]

Its not what it does not mention. Its what it does mention that should guide the Christian who has the propensity for science. Of course, having a poor translation is disaster for the earnestly seeking scientist.

All the realities you named should have you spell bound to know the one who conceived all what you speak of will be speaking to you someday.


I can tell you an experience I had about 25 years ago. I was going through a situation where I was tempted to be anxious about the outcome.
I was working for a commuter airline. It was a private airport. On a clear day you could see for miles. I used to use a mountain peak to determine the visibility for the pilots when they radioed in before their landings.

What happened was this...

I was being preoccupied with a situation I was waiting upon for a solution. I decided during a quiet time to get up and walk outside towards the fence surrounding the airstrip. It was a clear and warm day.

First.. I must say this. I am not an emotional holy roller type who seeks miracles and signs from God. I am leery of such things normally. What took place was very rare for me. It took me by surprise..

I stood at the fence. I was in an attitude of prayer.

Out of nowhere a voice filled my mind and told me....

"Look at the grass."

This was a very wide open area to be seen for miles. I looked down at my feet at the grass.

"Every blade of grass consists of millions of molecules."

I accepted the thought.

"Every molecule is made of of atoms."

I accepted the thought.

"Do you think when all these molecules and atoms were created, that I sent out a committee to create all you see?

I was getting scared, but I accepted the thought.

"I personally created each and every one INDIVIDUALLY!"

I was totally stunned at this point, but I accepted the though.

"Now, looks at all the blades of grass! Look at the fence that has millions of molecules and atoms!"

Then this voice boomed...

"DON'T YOU THINK I HAVE CONTROL OVER EVERYTHING!?"

I began at that point to experience trembling and fear. It was out of an uncontrollable awe that I could hardly bear. Then, there was silence. I snapped out of it.
​

Colossians 1:16-17
"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens
and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones
or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things
have been created through Him and for Him.


He is before all things,

and in Him all things hold together."

​

I later recalled Paul saying that when he preached he did so with great fear and trembling. He was not experiencing stage fright. Its not really like any fear we normally know. Its not out of terror. Its out of a fear of being overwhelmed by being made able to see a reality that is no longer by means of simple mental ascent. It becomes overwhelmingly real with what we normally would never think of experiencing as real.

Every molecule and atom that exists? All. He not only created each one personally, but he also always knew where each one would be throughout the history of time. Before your great grandfather was born, God already knew how many hairs you would have on your head at the very moment you read this.

Yes God's power is awesome and leaves us trembling in amazement when our eyes are opened to glimpse the smallest part of it. Thank you for sharing that.

That kind of God does not have to lie. If man came from a chimp? He would have told us.

No that does not follow. The bible does not tell the earth is a sphere, in fact reading some of the verses, it sound like some people in the OT thought the earth was flat, the bible does not tell us the earth rotates and goes round the sun, in fact for most of church history, people believed the bible taught geocentrism that the earth was stationary in the centre of the cosmos with the sun rotating around us. God who created an oblate spheroid earth orbiting a sun that is at the centre of the solar system, did not think it necessary to reveal these details to us. Perhap he thought it more important we learn to walk in righteousness and love than be taught science in pages of scripture. Perhaps having created us with brains he expected us to work it out ourselves.

Its you who has to seek and find out how the data science comes up with is to be reconciled with what the Bible says is so.

It is certainly what the church did when they learned from science the earth went round he sun. They had to find new ways to interpret the geocentric passages. It is what the church did when we learned from science the earth was not Bishop Ussher's 6000 years old. This was a bit easier than dealing with geocentrism where had never been any alternative interpretation of the passages. With the age of the earth Christians could discover a wide range of other interpretations of Genesis throughout church history that avoided the mistake of young earth literalism. There was the interpretation that the days were purely figurative, not time periods at all, that the days stand for ages, or your own Gap Theory. And responsible honest scholarship was right to look at other ways to interpret Genesis when the young earth interpretation was shown to be wrong.

Poor translations are not to be used as a poor excuse. For some qualified and sought an accurate understanding of what the Scriptures convey in a much more accurate fashion. Those not seeking throw up their arms, surrender to popular opinion, and deny the Spirit living in them to continue on to seek what the truth really is. God can not lie.

Ephesians 4:30
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom
you were sealed for the day of redemption."
​

Many do not care what that says. They only care about keeping their good standing amongst their mutually gifted peers.

In Christ, GeneZ

Ad homs are best avoided, they spoil an otherwise very good post.

 

[JS-POG]

No, I'm seriously being curious Genez. I just want to know how you came to the conclusions you did with those scriptures.

 

[GenemZ]

Yes God's power is awesome and leaves us trembling in amazement when our eyes are opened to glimpse the smallest part of it. Thank you for sharing that.

No that does not follow. The bible does not tell the earth is a sphere, in fact reading some of the verses, it sound like some people in the OT thought the earth was flat, the bible does not tell us the earth rotates and goes round the sun, in fact for most of church history, people believed the bible taught geocentrism that the earth was stationary in the centre of the cosmos with the sun rotating around us. God who created an oblate spheroid earth orbiting a sun that is at the centre of the solar system, did not think it necessary to reveal these details to us. Perhap he thought it more important we learn to walk in righteousness and love than be taught science in pages of scripture. Perhaps having created us with brains he expected us to work it out ourselves.

It is certainly what the church did when they learned from science the earth went round he sun. They had to find new ways to interpret the geocentric passages. It is what the church did when we learned from science the earth was not Bishop Ussher's 6000 years old. This was a bit easier than dealing with geocentrism where had never been any alternative interpretation of the passages. With the age of the earth Christians could discover a wide range of other interpretations of Genesis throughout church history that avoided the mistake of young earth literalism. There was the interpretation that the days were purely figurative, not time periods at all, that the days stand for ages, or your own Gap Theory. And responsible honest scholarship was right to look at other ways to interpret Genesis when the young earth interpretation was shown to be wrong.

Ad homs are best avoided, they spoil an otherwise very good post.

It was not a ad hominin. I was just pointing out that being a Christian is no guarantee that the Holy Spirit is guiding all Christians. You seemed to be unaware of that truth. Christians who walk in pride grieve the Spirit who does live in them, like he lives in all who believe in Christ. He is grieved because they have cut themselves off from knowing Christ. These can only know about Christ.


C'est la vie.

 

[mpok1519]

Love how some say a Christian can take the liberty to to interpret Scripture any way they wish. And, then you turn right around to show us how its done.


Lucky metaphor. Just lucky.

You can interpret anything in anyway you want; doesn't mean its smart, logical or rational, however.

Also, the metaphor isn't that great of one. Metaphor, but, not really lucky, or particularily a good one.

But, you can interpret anything you want. If you see a blue sky, but you like to replace the word "blue" with "green", go for it.

I'm just saying that discussing and rationalizing scripture shows us less than say, oh, just observing the natural wonderous processes of the universe by the grace of intellegence God gave us.

Granted, sure, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If that verse ACTUALLY pertained to a round earth and its atmosphere, it still does not tell us anything about the troposphere, the ionosphere, stratosphere, etc. By your definition of "perfect", the Bible should have each and every piece of information known to man. It should be a computer with endless amounts of memory. It should be able to predict every future moment for every single iota frame of time past, present and future. If its perfect, it can do all those things.

But no; its not perfect. Why? Its man-made. God-inspired, but man-made.

 

[mpok1519]

It was not a ad hominin. I was just pointing out that being a Christian is no guarantee that the Holy Spirit is guiding all Christians. You seemed to be unaware of that truth. Christians who walk in pride grieve the Spirit who does live in them, like he lives in all who believe in Christ. He is grieved because they have cut themselves off from knowing Christ. These can only know about Christ.


C'est la vie.

sentiments like these do little to unite, but only divide people.

Faith isn't supposed to divide people; but, people do use to do just that.

 

[GenemZ]

No, I'm seriously being curious Genez. I just want to know how you came to the conclusions you did with those scriptures.

A tent is something that covers you. It stops at a given point. You live in a tent. The atmosphere reaches out only so far and it contains where we live. It shows that the Spirit guiding the mind of Isaiah understood that our atmosphere is like a tent covering our world. When looking up into the sky back then, man had no way of knowing of this reality on their own.


It says the The Lord sits above the circle of the earth. Christopher Columbus referred to the book of Isaiah in his inspiration.

Christopher Columbus Diary
​

There is no other passage to be found in Isaiah that could have been used to motivate Columbus in such a manner. And, Columbus believed the world is round.

It was the ignorant church leaders who already assumed the world is flat that determined for themselves that the earth is like a plate. Not God's Word. They forced God's Word to conform to their concept. Yet, the Holy Spirit knew that men someday would discover why it says "circle."

If the Bible meant flat and round? It would more likely say he sits above the plate of the earth. It does not. Plates were a reality back then. The earth's unmistakable shape was purposely being pointed to. It was yet to be discovered that God's Word was well ahead of the knowledge of men. Just like the prehistoric creation remained a mystery, and is revealed in the Hebrew. When Isaiah wrote his book? The word "sphere" was not used back then like we now use it. Sphere could be used to speak in regards to location. As in, the sphere of knowledge, etc. In the sphere of the river, etc.

Another alternative would have been "ball." But ball did not always connote a perfect circle shaped object that we commonly think of. Even the American football reveals this to be true. Circle's shape, can not be mistaken like a ball could be. The Greek word we derive "ball from is "ballo". It simply means to throw or hurl. The ball was the object that was thrown in a game. It did not have to connote exact circle shape. Today we usually assume a ball's circular shape. But, even today it is not always the case. There is no consistency like circle. American football is not a circle. So, I believe "circle" was the word of choice to describe the shape of the earth.


A woman's Rugby ball looks like this:

The American foot"ball."

 

[richterforest]

Uh, I have the most valid point on gene distribution. You suggest that in six-thousand years, humans have populated the earth from two individuals; by a scientific standard, the gene pool simply isn't diverse enough to sustain itself. This whole "perfection" theory you have is also bullspit. Nothing is perfect unless everything is. Perfect isn't even a real biological term used in any scientific settings. Perfect is a subjective term to describe something that pleases you, nothing more.

It wasn't bacteria; it was single-celled mitochondrial eukaryotes with prokaryotic traits. Dont kow what that means? Then don't try to lecture me on science bub. You simply spread lies and deception; thats the devil's job.

Take the course in either biological evolution or physical anthropology. THEN you'll understand. Until then, you won't, and you'll believe ridiculous and incredible and false things until the day you decide to stop learning. So please, support your local library and university.

oh well nevermind, I give up. If its gotten to name calling and condescending words then I need no part of this anymore, that is not Christlike and I would hate that I have hampered my witness to anyone. So, I apologize if I have offended you. We will just have to agree to disagree, I will trust the Word I have from God, all of it, and thats that.
By the way, I am an Auburn fan and I do support the football team wholeheartedly, War Eagle, and I hardly go to the library, I just read on the internet. But I do enjoy the book store, buying and reading fantasy novels, and, of course, I read the Bible everyday.

 

[JS-POG]

A tent is something that covers you. It stops at a given point. You live in a tent. The atmosphere reaches out only so far and it contains where we live. It shows that the Spirit guiding the mind of Isaiah understood that our atmosphere is like a tent covering our world. When looking up into the sky back then, man had no way of knowing of this reality on their own.


It says the The Lord sits above the circle of the earth. Christopher Columbus referred to the book of Isaiah in his inspiration.

There is no other passage to be found in Isaiah that could have been used to motivate Columbus in such a manner. And, Columbus believed the world is round.

It was the ignorant church leaders who already assumed the world is flat that determined for themselves that the earth is like a plate. Not God's Word. They forced God's Word to conform to their concept. Yet, the Holy Spirit knew that men someday would discover why it says "circle."

If the Bible meant flat and round? It would more likely say he sits above the plate of the earth. It does not. Plates were a reality back then. The earth's unmistakable shape was purposely being pointed to. It was yet to be discovered that God's Word was well ahead of the knowledge of men. Just like the prehistoric creation remained a mystery, and is revealed in the Hebrew. When Isaiah wrote his book? The word "sphere" was not used back then like we now use it. Sphere could be used to speak in regards to location. As in, the sphere of knowledge, etc. In the sphere of the river, etc.

I wonder why they didn't use the word sphere, globe, orb, or bubble-shaped. Isaiah had to have been aware of spheres; even in his time. The sphere seems to be a pretty common shape, even the pebbles in the dirt would remind them of the shape. It's just that theres a huge difference between a circle and a sphere. Circles are traditionally flat in geometry, even carrying different equations for their circumference and area.

 

[GenemZ]

oh well nevermind, I give up. If its gotten to name calling and condescending words

Gotten? You should have been out of here a long time ago. That's the way he is all the time. Gotten?





Have a safe journey!

 

[GenemZ]

But no; its not perfect. Why? Its man-made. God-inspired, but man-made.

Is your science even "God-inspired?"



.

 

[GenemZ]

sentiments like these do little to unite, but only divide people.

Faith isn't supposed to divide people; but, people do use to do just that.

I know you claim to know the Bible better than I do. But, you once more showed that you know little, if any, of what the Bible says concerning faith.

Matthew 10:34-35
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth.
I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."
​

Jesus was saying that "faith" will cause divisions. For not everyone is willing to accept faith as it is, and must re-create it to suite their needs.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19
"In the first place, I hear that when you come together
as a church, there are divisions among you,
and to some extent I believe it.
No doubt there have to be factions among you
to show which of you have God's approval."
​

What did you tell me?

Faith isn't supposed to divide people; but, people do use to do just that.

What is faith?

Romans 10:17
"So faith comes from hearing,
and hearing by the word of Christ."



John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God."
​

Want to see faith that divides?




"Then the LORD God formed man of dust
from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils
the breath of life; and man became a living being."





Faith will, and does divide and not unite.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19
"In the first place, I hear that when you come together
as a church, there are divisions among you,
and to some extent I believe it.
No doubt there have to be factions among you
to show which of you have God's approval."





Faith only unites those believers who have it.

Faith is an offense to those trying to save something that the Word says must go.
.
​

 

[LightSeaker]

Jesus was saying that "faith" will cause divisions. For not everyone is willing to accept faith as it is, and must re-create it to suite their needs.

There's no doubt that a persons faith can cause divisions. History shows us that there have been way too many religious wars to deny that truth. What gets me though is when I see my fellow Christians, in a very self-righteous way, act like the biggest jerks possible to other people, there by causing division. They than run and hide behind Luke 12:49-53 like they have a God given right to cause that division.

.

 

[JS-POG]

There's no doubt that a persons faith can cause divisions. History shows us that there have been way too many religious wars to deny that truth. What gets me though is when I see my fellow Christians, in a very self-righteous way, act like the biggest jerks possible to other people, there by causing division. They than run and hide behind Luke 12:49-53 like they have a God given right to cause that division.

.

This is truth! Genez, Christ was speaking of the inevitable divisions that would take place between the believers versus the non-believers. Obviously the gospel of Jesus Christ will form a dichotomy with the precepts of this world. However, as brethren of Christ (as I assume we all here are) should we not unite in common effort for this "greater cause"?

Eph. 4: 3, 13​

3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.


13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Ps. 133: 1
​

1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

I can't imagine the Prince of Peace cultivating mayhem amongst His disciples. Nor can we say to each other, "I have no need for thee"...

1 Corinthians 12: 14-16
​

14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

 

[GenemZ]

This is truth! Genez, Christ was speaking of the inevitable divisions that would take place between the believers versus the non-believers.

I wish you would have read what I quoted the first time.

Here it is again.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19
"In the first place, I hear that when you come together
as a church, there are divisions among you,
and to some extent I believe it.
No doubt there have to be factions among you
to show which of you have God's approval."
​

Did you read that? Faith will divide believers! That does not speak about believer and unbeliever.

Obviously the gospel of Jesus Christ will form a dichotomy with the precepts of this world. However, as brethren of Christ (as I assume we all here are) should we not unite in common effort for this "greater cause"?

What might that 'cause' be? Unite around some church program? Everyone soul win? And, not unite to grow in knowledge of God's Word, which is to be believed = faith? Uniting around a cause does nothing for the gaining of knowledge of God's Word. Its human reasoning. Human organizations unite around causes. God's people are to unite around learning and growing in God's Word.

2 Peter 3:18
"But grow in the grace and knowledge of our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To him be glory both now and forever! Amen."


​

Next is the problem with faith personified... It speaks of the Church only. Not unbelievers.

2 Timothy 4:3
"For the time will come when men will not put up
with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires,
they will gather around them a great number of teachers
to say what their itching ears want to hear."
​

FAITH must divide! For, faith quite often will run contrary to what someone thinks is good and right. There will be believers who resent the truth and will not want to deny self and take up their cross when the Word of God tells them that what they cherish is not of God. If that were not the case? We would not see so many different denominations today.





In Christ, GeneZ



.

 

[GenemZ]

There's no doubt that a persons faith can cause divisions. History shows us that there have been way too many religious wars to deny that truth. What gets me though is when I see my fellow Christians, in a very self-righteous way, act like the biggest jerks possible to other people, there by causing division. They than run and hide behind Luke 12:49-53 like they have a God given right to cause that division.

.

What they may do, does not negate the fact that Luke 12:49-53 is true.

Satan loves to motivate jerks to mock God's Word by their abuses of it. Jerks seek division. We are not to seek division. We are to seek truth. Seeking truth will bring division because believers are willing to compromise truth when they find the truth inconvenient. Its like Seventh Day Adventist denying that the Sabbath was only given to the Jews under the Law. Or, Catholics getting all upset when they are shown that the bread and wine are never said to become literal flesh and blood. Those are some obvious divisions caused by opposition to faith. Many other divisions are caused by what is to be found on a more subtle level.


Grace and peace, GeneZ



.

 

[Gary51]

I wonder why they didn't use the word sphere, globe, orb, or bubble-shaped.

What do you see when you look at the sun or the moon?

I see a circle!