How long does it take to figure out what doctrine to believe?

[Carl Emerson]

I learned my theology by studying the Bible, the early church writings, and early church history. The early church writings can give us an idea of what the early church taught and nobody in the early church taught eternal security. Not one single early church writer.

Because eternal life was eternal life and no one questioned it...

1 John 2

25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Do you always nullify yourself immediately after writing things ?

Perhaps I worded that incorrectly. My point is, we are still living in sinful flesh, with fleshly desires, and that will remain so until our bodies are transferred in Heaven. That's what Paul talked about in Romans 7, the battle he had, the battle every Christian has.

Every true believer in Christ has been judged in Christ on the cross. God cannot judge His people in any way because His people have already been judged in Jesus. So you are saying God judged me in Christ and then changed His mind and is going to judge me again for something that's been judged in Christ already?

Christ satisfied God's wrath on the cross for the elect of God. When Christ drank the cup of God’s wrath He drank it to the dregs. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and that means on the final day and every day until then. God is never judging you for your sin if you are in Christ. So how can I lose my salvation and go to hell when Christ fully satisfied God's wrath for me? Christ satisfied God's wrath but then I'm going to suffer God's wrath for eternity? See the problem you are having?

John 5:24 “He that hears my Word and believes on Him that sent me has everlasting life and, therefore, shall not come into judgment but is passed from death unto life.”
If you believe, you have everlasting life
“And shall not come into judgment,” “is passed from death unto life.”
Does it say you have to live a certain way to come to everlasting life? No.

In John 6, verse 37, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me.” In other words, all those that God designs sovereignly to redeem will come to Christ. Very simple statement. And from the human viewpoint, that should not restrain any man because “him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out.”

In other words, only those whom the Father draws will come, and only those will come whom the Father draws. So there is a perfect meeting. “For I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me, and this is the Father’s will who sent me, that out of all that He hath given me, I should lose” - how many? - “none.”

“Of all that the Father gives me, I shall lose nothing, but raise him up again at the last day.” In other words, all those chosen unto salvation, all those who affirm that salvation by coming to Jesus Christ, will be raised up in the last day. There’s no loss, you see. Nobody escapes, nobody’s lost, nobody falls through the cracks. And verse 40 sums it up, “And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one who sees the Son” - and that is with the eye of faith, the eye of true spiritual perception - “and believes on Him may have everlasting life.” Saying salvation can be lost contradicts Jesus.

Romans 8:1 says, “There is, therefore, now no judgment” - there is no judgment, no final judgment, no ultimate condemnation - “to them who are in Christ Jesus.” No judgment to them in Christ Jesus.

God chose people to salvation. He will bring them to full conformity to Christlikeness. Nobody falls in the cracks. Nobody is lost. They will all be brought to that. “For whom He did predestinate, them He also called. And whom He called, them He also justified. And whom He justified, them He also glorified.” Do you see any loss there? Whoever is called, whoever is predestined, whoever is redeemed, whoever is justified, whoever is sanctified is glorified. No loss.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because eternal life was eternal life and no one questioned it...

1 John 2

25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

And yet you still keep dodging the question. If your theology is so superior why can’t you answer one simple question?

So when Paul said “if we deny Him, He will deny us” what did he mean that Jesus would deny them?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because eternal life was eternal life and no one questioned it...

1 John 2

25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

He also promised that whoever denies Him before men, He will deny before The Father.

Ok now apply 1 John 2:25-26 to 1 Corinthians 3:1-3

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So apparently 1 John 2:25-26 doesn’t apply to these Corinthians. So then it’s probably safe to say that it doesn’t apply to everyone and that John was again referring to a specific group of people and not making a statement that encompasses every Christian out there.

 

[Lost Witness]

I learned my theology by studying the Bible, the early church writings, and early church history. The early church writings can give us an idea of what the early church taught and nobody in the early church taught eternal security. Not one single early church writer.

there are two camps in the church
Now the Lord has said, "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day" -- john 6:39

 

[BNR32FAN]

there are two camps in the church
Now the Lord has said, "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day" -- john 6:39

Yes I did a video explaining why John 6:37-40 can’t be interpreted to support eternal security.

 

[Carl Emerson]

And yet you still keep dodging the question. If your theology is so superior why can’t you answer one simple question?

So when Paul said “if we deny Him, He will deny us” what did he mean that Jesus would deny them?

You don't need to keep repeating yourself.

I answered this but you didn't like my answer.

One more time.

The audience is wheat and tares.

Paul was addressing the tares in this statement.

Many are called, join fellowship, and few are chosen - the chosen don't deny Him. They are rendered incapable of doing so by the indwelling presence of the fear of Him.

 

[Aaron112]

The internet is just a tool.
Who uses it, and why, will manifest the true love of the users.

Guns are just a tool also, and having thought of it, guns are probably a lot less dangerous than the internet.

 

[Hoping2]

Perhaps I worded that incorrectly. My point is, we are still living in sinful flesh, with fleshly desires, and that will remain so until our bodies are transferred in Heaven.

I don't believe that is the case, since I was reborn of God's seed.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
With that scripture, both the flesh and the lusts are gone !
We can't blame something that is dead, for an action the mind initiates and enables.

That's what Paul talked about in Romans 7, the battle he had, the battle every Christian has.

Rom 7 is a narrative from Paul's pre-conversion life as a Pharisee, and trying unsuccessfully to live up to the Law's commandments.
He presented from whence he had come, and in Rom 8 shows where he "went".
Life in and lived after the Spirit, and not the flesh.

Every true believer in Christ has been judged in Christ on the cross. God cannot judge His people in any way because His people have already been judged in Jesus. So you are saying God judged me in Christ and then changed His mind and is going to judge me again for something that's been judged in Christ already?

If one is still committing sin, is one really "in Christ" ?
If one were, that would mean there is sin in Christ, a POV I don't believe is possible.

Christ satisfied God's wrath on the cross for the elect of God. When Christ drank the cup of God’s wrath He drank it to the dregs. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and that means on the final day and every day until then. God is never judging you for your sin if you are in Christ.

Again, is there sin in Christ ?
No, so sinners are not in Him either.

So how can I lose my salvation and go to hell when Christ fully satisfied God's wrath for me? Christ satisfied God's wrath but then I'm going to suffer God's wrath for eternity? See the problem you are having?

The problem in that scenario, is that the sinner never actually repented from sin.

John 5:24 “He that hears my Word and believes on Him that sent me has everlasting life and, therefore, shall not come into judgment but is passed from death unto life.”
If you believe, you have everlasting life
“And shall not come into judgment,” “is passed from death unto life.”
Does it say you have to live a certain way to come to everlasting life? No.

Do believers disobey and hurt the One who died in their place for their sins ?
No.

In John 6, verse 37, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me.” In other words, all those that God designs sovereignly to redeem will come to Christ. Very simple statement. And from the human viewpoint, that should not restrain any man because “him that cometh to me, I will in no wise cast out.”

Agreed, but will that man then turn against God ?

In other words, only those whom the Father draws will come, and only those will come whom the Father draws. So there is a perfect meeting. “For I came down from heaven not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me, and this is the Father’s will who sent me, that out of all that He hath given me, I should lose” - how many? - “none.”

Belief must include obedience.
Disobedience shows a lack of belief that there will be a day of judgement for both believers and unbelievers.

“Of all that the Father gives me, I shall lose nothing, but raise him up again at the last day.” In other words, all those chosen unto salvation, all those who affirm that salvation by coming to Jesus Christ, will be raised up in the last day. There’s no loss, you see. Nobody escapes, nobody’s lost, nobody falls through the cracks. And verse 40 sums it up, “And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one who sees the Son” - and that is with the eye of faith, the eye of true spiritual perception - “and believes on Him may have everlasting life.” Saying salvation can be lost contradicts Jesus.

Will the people that God has given to Jesus hate Jesus ?
Jesus said the servants of sin (John 8:34) will hate another master, in Matt 6:24.

Romans 8:1 says, “There is, therefore, now no judgment” - there is no judgment, no final judgment, no ultimate condemnation - “to them who are in Christ Jesus.” No judgment to them in Christ Jesus.

There will be a good judgement, and there are no sinners "in Christ".

God chose people to salvation. He will bring them to full conformity to Christlikeness.

Where are the sinners in that scenario ?

Nobody falls in the cracks. Nobody is lost. They will all be brought to that. “For whom He did predestinate, them He also called. And whom He called, them He also justified. And whom He justified, them He also glorified.” Do you see any loss there? Whoever is called, whoever is predestined, whoever is redeemed, whoever is justified, whoever is sanctified is glorified. No loss.

Agreed.
And none will be an offense unto Him.
It is written..."Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15)
There is no eternal life dwelling in any liar, thief, or adulterer, either.

 

[Hoping2]

Guns are just a tool also, and having thought of it, guns are probably a lot less dangerous than the internet.

You may have a point there.
But guns can help feed the hungry too.
It is the motive behind the user of both guns, and internets, that bears the fruit.

 

[Aaron112]

You may have a point there.
But guns can help feed the hungry too.
It is the motive behind the user of both guns, and internets, that bears the fruit.

oops? no. "motive" does not determine fruit.
We as men may plant the seed that Yahweh provides, and we may water as Yahweh provides,
but it is only Yahweh Who Gives The Growth , if any.

 

[Aaron112]

How can we believe in eternal security with these kind of testimony?

A lot of persons do not believe in eternal security, with or without these kind of testimony.
Whether someone does or not, it is their choice to believe it or not, and often their minds are made up in a way they won't listen to anyone else.

 

[Aaron112]

Those who serve God, will inherit eternal life.
Those that serve sin, will inherit eternal destruction.

God's Truth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You don't need to keep repeating yourself.

I answered this but you didn't like my answer.

One more time.

The audience is wheat and tares.

Paul was addressing the tares in this statement.

Many are called, join fellowship, and few are chosen - the chosen don't deny Him. They are rendered incapable of doing so by the indwelling presence of the fear of Him.

You do realize that this is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy right? Neither of the epistles to Timothy are addressed to a congregation. So when Paul says “WE” and “US” your official position is that Paul is talking about someone else? That’s called ignoring context brother. Who is talking and who is the audience are two of the most important things to consider when examining context.

 

[timewerx]

I want to find out whether eternal security is really true. I want to believe yes. There are people however who claim to have lost their faith, they say it was due to sin and they can no longer believe anymore even if they want to. That is concerning to hear, and also then there are those who simply just stopped believing.

How can we believe in eternal security with these kind of testimony?

Quite often, "security" is rooted in the wrong selfish motives where self-preservation becomes a higher priority than knowing the truth.

This is why Jesus said in Luke 9:24 "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it". They're compelled to believe anything that claims to protect them from death even from doctrine that isn't entirely in agreement with Biblical teachings (false teachings).

It can also be from selfish motives where happiness is a strong priority (John 12:25 - does not say it exactly but it's no-brainer that if you love your life, you will strive to make yourself happy all the time if possible) - whatever religion that makes them happy and makes the claim of eternal security. Although it's human nature to want to stay happy, there are many circumstances where happiness becomes a hindrance to the truth. Many don't realize it or don't wish to know, thus, choosing ignorance over the truth in order to stay happy (ignorance is bliss).

 

[Carl Emerson]

You do realize that this is a personal letter from Paul to Timothy right? Neither of the epistles to Timothy are addressed to a congregation. So when Paul says “WE” and “US” your official position is that Paul is talking about someone else? That’s called ignoring context brother. Who is talking and who is the audience are two of the most important things to consider when examining context.

Are you suggesting God didn't know that this letter would be read in churches down through the ages ???

 

[Carl Emerson]

He also promised that whoever denies Him before men, He will deny before The Father.

Ok now apply 1 John 2:25-26 to 1 Corinthians 3:1-3

“And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ. I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So apparently 1 John 2:25-26 doesn’t apply to these Corinthians. So then it’s probably safe to say that it doesn’t apply to everyone and that John was again referring to a specific group of people and not making a statement that encompasses every Christian out there.

I could be wrong but you seem to be following my reasoning...

 

[BNR32FAN]

Are you suggesting God didn't know that this letter would be read in churches down through the ages ???

And for the first 15 centuries nobody taught eternal security. All of the early church writers taught conditional security. The writings of the first two centuries of Christianity give us evidence of how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted because the first century writers were disciples of the apostles and received more information from them than what we receive in the scriptures. They were also able to ask questions and get direct answers. You can’t just ignore context based on a claim that Paul didn’t mean what he wrote the way he wrote it. That’s just twisting the passage in order to confirm it to coincide with your doctrine instead of allowing the scriptures to teach what they teach and allowing them to dictate your doctrines.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I could be wrong but you seem to be following my reasoning...

No my point was that not everyone who reads the scriptures come to the same interpretation and not every believer who has the Holy Spirit comes to the same conclusions on doctrine.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

If one is still committing sin, is one really "in Christ" ?
If one were, that would mean there is sin in Christ, a POV I don't believe is possible.

How you lived a perfect sinless life, without any sin since you have been saved? Because if you sinned only a single time, you have lost salvation according to your words. Or is there a limit?
Until end of your life, you do not know where you are going. Whether you lived your life good enough. This is what Islam teaches, do good deeds and there is a good chance allah will accept you. But the Bible teaches about assurance of salvation. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, adopted into God's family in Christ Jesus, because He paid for it. But what you say is that His payment is not enough, and we must add something to it. But there is nothing that can be added.

Despite God’s transforming work in salvation, and the new nature we enjoy as His children in Christ, we still fall short of His righteous standard. Scripture recognizes our lingering imperfection. Even the apostle Paul wrote, Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Every perfectionist inevitably comes face‑to‑face with clear and abundant empirical evidence that the residue of sin remains in the flesh and troubles even the most spiritual Christians throughout their earthly lives. In order to hang onto perfectionist doctrine, they must redefine sin or diminish the standard of holiness. Too often they do this at the expense of their own consciences.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christians can never attain sinless perfection in this life. “Who can say, ‘I have cleansed my heart, I am pure from my sin’?” (Proverbs 20:9). “For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well” (James 3:2). “For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please” (Galatians 5:17). “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

All perfectionism is essentially a disastrous misunderstanding of how God works in sanctification. Sanctification is a process by which God—working in believers through the Holy Spirit—gradually moves them toward Christlikeness (2 Corinthians 3:18). That the transformation is gradual—not instantaneous, and never complete in this lifetime—is confirmed by many passages of Scripture.

Rom 7 is a narrative from Paul's pre-conversion life as a Pharisee, and trying unsuccessfully to live up to the Law's commandments.

No. Paul is talking as a Christian already.

Peter sinned after being saved and yet he is in heaven.
King David sinned after being saved. Likewise Abraham. Did any of these men lose their salvation? No. Not even the most faithful lived a perfect sinless life after being saved.