How long do I stand?

[taku60]

The two bolded portions of this quote don't line up. They aren't being extorted by a legal process, nor is "it isn't how I'd like it" a viable excuse to fail at manhood.

You are right the legal system is facilitating the extortion. The second part of what you said does not make any sense, ones expectation of quality of life is not a reflection on their man hood it is simply a preference and if its their money who are you to guilt trip them (which is another forum of extortion) to giving it away or making them believe that the extortion being facilitated by the courts is just. this is very similar to the needs/wants guilt trips people play.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

If you can get 50/50 then there is no child support here either but from everyone I have known or heard of that has been through this 50/50 is rare. Also the burden should be shouldered by the one to cause the break up (if he cheated on her for no reason, if she prudes out, etc). The bottom line is the woman usually push for full custody because she can get above and beyond what it takes to raise a kid especially if he makes decent money so she can dump the kid at moms and have plenty of play money to get her nails done or whatever it is she does. The best thing he can do is try not to get divorced and just get his needs met elsewhere unless she agrees to 0 alimony and minimal/nessities only child support, if she wants the farm you should stay married and just get what you need somewhere else (of course having that discussion and then trying to stay married based on what she says is a catch 22, so you either have to take the risk that you might get extorted so you can properly form a new relationship in the future or stay married and mess around on the side and not expose yourself to extreme extortion), thats probalby not the most biblical advice but the position that this nation has put men in is evil.

This is a very good reason for any Christian to disregard your advice. Bad things can happen to good people and sometimes good people just do things that contribute to the demise of their marriage. Neither one of these scenarios make it ok to start disobeying God because life isn't going where you wanted.

The one thing that you wrote that I can kind of agree with is to look at plain jane instead of running after a hot blond. But, I would expand on that and say that everyone should be extremely careful about who they choose to marry and make sure they are marrying a person of character who shares the same values, has complimentary goals and some similar hobbies or interests. It's ok if he/she is a hot blond if all the other stuff matches up.

There is a lot of stuff going on that isn't fair and it's happening to mothers and fathers. My ex split the country and I haven't received a dime in about 5 years. My fiance is dealing with a psycho woman who tries to torture him by withholding his son. I can see both sides. To generalize and portray women as being so evil suggests you have some issues to work on.

 

[Macx]

You are right the legal system is facilitating the extortion. The second part of what you said does not make any sense, ones expectation of quality of life is not a reflection on their man hood it is simply a preference and if its their money who are you to guilt trip them (which is another forum of extortion) to giving it away or making them believe that the extortion being facilitated by the courts is just. this is very similar to the needs/wants guilt trips people play.

Yup, there are issues. . . . that need to be fixed.

Taku said (men)

are being extorted still have to live and when the courts force a man to quit his job becuase he can not keep enough of his income to live as he would like

My comment was rather that the statement contains inconsistencies. To be clear: If men are being extorted, there is a criminal justice system, officers, DA's, judges and the like to handle such. The courts can not extort, because they are the organ of society that represents law. The use of the word "extort" in the context Taku is using it would be a non sequitur . . . except that he actually means it. Further, no one is allowed to keep enough of their income to live as they would like. Everybody would like to pay a little less in taxes, perhaps nothing, maybe even have the government pay them . . . in addition to whatever income they normally bring in. The idea, that somehow having to live up to one's responsibilities and pay the bills that come with one's choices, is more than counterbalanced by man's innate right to buy toys is laughable. It isn't about guilt trip at all. Rather, as a citizen I am somewhat annoyed that I have to pay (in various ways, through taxes that go to build jails, police that are paid to populate jails, shrinkage induced price hikes including stores raising prices to compensate for greater security costs, backlogged courts. . . it goees on and on) for the misguided or unguided children of men who live by Taku's value system. It comes out of society's pocket, when men fail to ensure the health, wellbeing, education and spiritual formation of their children. Cut me a check for the costs of this philosophy or rob me with your complicity. I am not okay with being robbed . . . so get out your pen and checkbook or keep your male parts a safe distance from any female parts.

 

[HuntingMan]

My wife has left me, she wants a divorce, and is in a sexual affair.

God had said he would bring her home. He said this before she had the sexual relation.

I know that it is my choice now.

I just want to know, how long would you stand on this marriage?

You can 'stand' for as long as you feel you want to.
Sadly, that isnt going to make God 'force' your wife to do the right thing, even tho that seems to be the error taught by a few groups out there.
If a spouse wants to leave the marriage we are called to peace and are to let them leave.
I dont see anything in scripture that says we have to 'stand' for a marriage, so yes, it is your choice to do so or not.

 

[HuntingMan]

THE ONLY VICTIMS IN DIVORCE ARE THE CHILDREN. If you dont have any then you're lucky.

Huh.
So the woman whos face has been mutilated by her husband so that she has to divorce him to feel safe again isnt a 'victim' ???

Sorry but children arent always 'victims' in a divorce, nor are they the only ones. When my mother left the dog of a man she was married to when I was 12 it was the best thing she ever did for us kids. In lots of cases children are SAVED from being victims thru divorce.

 

[taku60]

Yup, there are issues. . . . that need to be fixed.

Taku said (men)

My comment was rather that the statement contains inconsistencies. To be clear: If men are being extorted, there is a criminal justice system, officers, DA's, judges and the like to handle such. The courts can not extort, because they are the organ of society that represents law. The use of the word "extort" in the context Taku is using it would be a non sequitur . . . except that he actually means it. Further, no one is allowed to keep enough of their income to live as they would like. Everybody would like to pay a little less in taxes, perhaps nothing, maybe even have the government pay them . . . in addition to whatever income they normally bring in. The idea, that somehow having to live up to one's responsibilities and pay the bills that come with one's choices, is more than counterbalanced by man's innate right to buy toys is laughable. It isn't about guilt trip at all. Rather, as a citizen I am somewhat annoyed that I have to pay (in various ways, through taxes that go to build jails, police that are paid to populate jails, shrinkage induced price hikes including stores raising prices to compensate for greater security costs, backlogged courts. . . it goees on and on) for the misguided or unguided children of men who live by Taku's value system. It comes out of society's pocket, when men fail to ensure the health, wellbeing, education and spiritual formation of their children. Cut me a check for the costs of this philosophy or rob me with your complicity. I am not okay with being robbed . . . so get out your pen and checkbook or keep your male parts a safe distance from any female parts.

Call it what you want but when you start involentarily taking money from someone it is going to drive specific behaviors in alot of people, and the type of behavior that is driven will almost exclusivly depend on the amont that is involentarily taken. The reason he is in that situation may very well be his own fault but alot of the time it is the fault of teh woman but no matter whos fault it is the man is always the one who has to pay. He can either work a high stress job where a large portion of him money goes away or he can work a cake walk job where a small portion of his money goes away and at the end of the day he is still living in a studio appartment driving whatever he had before and hoping there are no mechanical problems. Usually where the exteme meaures come is when the frustration levels of not being able to find a new mate because of the finance situation cause him to work under the table. Why should a man have to be celibate because our justice system is messed up, people are going to have sex thats just a fact its how the justice system judges and how fair it is that will drive specific behavior. Also child support can cause defaults on alot of other types of debt because child support orders take precident over other debt, if creditors are unable to collect they have to write the debt off, guess who gets to pay for that good ole american tax payer so that the mom can take her inflated child support check and get her nails done. Your 300,000 ft view of this situation does not work when the devil is in the details. Getting out your pen and check book is fine and dandy its what numbers are you making with that pen that matters and will determine if you end up paying for the kid because he starts working under the table or paying for gov bail outs because of defaults on other loans, if a very delicate balance is not kept then everything will fall apart, he needs to be able to pay his child support, student loans, mortgage, vehical repairs and maintence food gas and utilities, tools of his trade, etc , but they take a hard liner approach and set a percentage and if you cant make it then I guess the other creditors are a** out and if he cant make his bills then he will work under the table to live. We havent even started talking about toys yet.

 

[ddisciple]

Call it what you want but when you start involentarily taking money from someone it is going to drive specific behaviors in alot of people, and the type of behavior that is driven will almost exclusivly depend on the amont that is involentarily taken. The reason he is in that situation may very well be his own fault but alot of the time it is the fault of teh woman but no matter whos fault it is the man is always the one who has to pay. He can either work a high stress job where a large portion of him money goes away or he can work a cake walk job where a small portion of his money goes away and at the end of the day he is still living in a studio appartment driving whatever he had before and hoping there are no mechanical problems. Usually where the exteme meaures come is when the frustration levels of not being able to find a new mate because of the finance situation cause him to work under the table. Why should a man have to be celibate because our justice system is messed up, people are going to have sex thats just a fact its how the justice system judges and how fair it is that will drive specific behavior. Also child support can cause defaults on alot of other types of debt because child support orders take precident over other debt, if creditors are unable to collect they have to write the debt off, guess who gets to pay for that good ole american tax payer so that the mom can take her inflated child support check and get her nails done. Your 300,000 ft view of this situation does not work when the devil is in the details. Getting out your pen and check book is fine and dandy its what numbers are you making with that pen that matters and will determine if you end up paying for the kid because he starts working under the table or paying for gov bail outs because of defaults on other loans, if a very delicate balance is not kept then everything will fall apart, he needs to be able to pay his child support, student loans, mortgage, vehical repairs and maintence food gas and utilities, tools of his trade, etc , but they take a hard liner approach and set a percentage and if you cant make it then I guess the other creditors are a** out and if he cant make his bills then he will work under the table to live. We havent even started talking about toys yet.

yes i whole heartedly agree. Even in Australia the child support rules are stuffed.
My ex wife took my kids away, wouldnt let me know where they where, or when i would see them next. when i did finally see them, they clung to me like there was no tomorrow. they and didnt want to go back to her, they wanted to stay with me.
but i still have to pay her no matter what. i know for fact she is using the money foolishly, but theres nothing i can do about it.
either quit my job, or continue on and pay each month regardless

 

[Macx]

Call it what you want but when you start involentarily taking money from someone it is going to drive specific behaviors in alot of people, and the type of behavior that is driven will almost exclusivly depend on the amont that is involentarily taken.

You voluntarily donated your sperm to maybe create a whole living and breathing human with human rights. If you regret that choice, it does not absolve you of the consequences.

Men own up to their responsibilities. humanoids with male parts that make excuses, hem and haw, and don't fully support their children above whatever a court may dictate . . . aren't quite men, despite appearances.

 

[BarelyBreathing]

The reason he is in that situation may very well be his own fault but alot of the time it is the fault of teh woman but no matter whos fault it is the man is always the one who has to pay.

The man is always the one who has to pay? Women don't ever pay child support?

He can either work a high stress job where a large portion of him money goes away or he can work a cake walk job where a small portion of his money goes away and at the end of the day he is still living in a studio appartment driving whatever he had before and hoping there are no mechanical problems.

...so that the mom can take her inflated child support check and get her nails done.

...if a very delicate balance is not kept then everything will fall apart, he needs to be able to pay his child support, student loans, mortgage, vehical repairs and maintence food gas and utilities, tools of his trade, etc

I'm glad women don't have "student loans, mortgage, vehicle repairs and maintenance, food, gas, utilities, tools of her trade, etc." to pay for! Leaves us all that money to go get our nails done. It's a good thing we also don't have to pay for child care expenses, diapers, formula, school supplies, etc.

I wanna know how a man who pays maybe 25% of he NET income and retains 75% of it, lives poorly, yet a woman is rolling in the dough. It is no secret that women earn less on average than men, and also that studies have shown that women are the ones who are financially worse off after divorce. Most men do not pay near 50% of their net income, although I seem to hear them all claiming to. I knew a guy who claimed he was paying half his income to his ex-wife, and then when I found out how much he made and how much he was paying, turns out he was paying only 12% of his net. 12% is a long way from 50%. I have never met one single mother who lives well. Sure, they may exist, but they must not be that common.

 

[taku60]

The man is always the one who has to pay? Women don't ever pay child support?



I'm glad women don't have "student loans, mortgage, vehicle repairs and maintenance, food, gas, utilities, tools of her trade, etc." to pay for! Leaves us all that money to go get our nails done. It's a good thing we also don't have to pay for child care expenses, diapers, formula, school supplies, etc.

I wanna know how a man who pays maybe 25% of he NET income and retains 75% of it, lives poorly, yet a woman is rolling in the dough. It is no secret that women earn less on average than men, and also that studies have shown that women are the ones who are financially worse off after divorce. Most men do not pay near 50% of their net income, although I seem to hear them all claiming to. I knew a guy who claimed he was paying half his income to his ex-wife, and then when I found out how much he made and how much he was paying, turns out he was paying only 12% of his net. 12% is a long way from 50%. I have never met one single mother who lives well. Sure, they may exist, but they must not be that common.

It depends on whos fault the separation is, I dont think there should be financial consequences for a man when the separation was not his fault, if that means life is going to get REALLY hard for her so be it maybe she should not have acted in a manner that caused the separation. On the other hand if he is at fault then I dont disagree with the currant arrangement and support should be paid.

 

[taku60]

You voluntarily donated your sperm to maybe create a whole living and breathing human with human rights. If you regret that choice, it does not absolve you of the consequences.

Men own up to their responsibilities. humanoids with male parts that make excuses, hem and haw, and don't fully support their children above whatever a court may dictate . . . aren't quite men, despite appearances.

Sounds like you cut and pasted this out of a Dr. Laura web site, I also have no respect for her. You also took my post out of context like you do the bible.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Huh.
So the woman whos face has been mutilated by her husband so that she has to divorce him to feel safe again isnt a 'victim' ???

Sorry but children arent always 'victims' in a divorce, nor are they the only ones. When my mother left the dog of a man she was married to when I was 12 it was the best thing she ever did for us kids. In lots of cases children are SAVED from being victims thru divorce.

Fair enough.

My experience has been how my ex harps on about being a victim (when she is, in fat, a bully) when actually only the children suffer. Note I said DIVORCE, not marrage You seem to cite an example of a victim in marrage

 

[Macx]

Sounds like you cut and pasted this out of a Dr. Laura web site, I also have no respect for her. You also took my post out of context like you do the bible.

Who is Dr. Laura? Ain't worth Googling as you didn't really offer an argument. You wanna be specific about where I am taking the Bible out of context or do you want to tuck tail? You could say you "won't go fishing" but we all know that is just a cop out for "ain't got no proof".

 

[taku60]

Who is Dr. Laura? Ain't worth Googling as you didn't really offer an argument. You wanna be specific about where I am taking the Bible out of context or do you want to tuck tail? You could say you "won't go fishing" but we all know that is just a cop out for "ain't got no proof".

You only quoted and responed to one or 2 sentences out of my post thats why.

 

[eatenbylocusts]

It depends on whos fault the separation is, I dont think there should be financial consequences for a man when the separation was not his fault, if that means life is going to get REALLY hard for her so be it maybe she should not have acted in a manner that caused the separation. On the other hand if he is at fault then I dont disagree with the currant arrangement and support should be paid.

Right. So if the kids live with her and she was at fault they all have to starve?

And I will also take exception to your blanket statement that only men are put in this situation. It's absolutely false.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Again, I have to wonder why the conversation here is about "BLAME" in regards to child maintenance payments. The issue is to do with who has primary residency for the children (according to the court order or defacto arrangments - if the petitioner/respondent has not applied/appealed).

"Blame" and "fault" are matters for financial settlement in divorce and reason for divorce itself, where they are even relevant at all.

 

[Macx]

I'd take that one step forward. Blame and primary residency are things for adults to negotiate. The care of the child should ALWAYS be not just the prime consideration but the prime consideration by a HUGE margin. Sort blame and all that jazz out on your own time, kids come first!

 

[Billnew]

What do you mean "God said he'd bring her home"?

I'd grant her the divorce.

That part mad eme nervous too. imo Sounds like til death do we part, perverted. I truly hope that was not what you meant.

Is that really the case over there?! That sucks. Over here whoever is left holding the baby holds the baby Then you apply to court for whatever contact you wish. If it's 50/50 then no-one pays child support to anyone because the burden is shared (as is my case...kinda, I have majority custody).

So double check the laws acording to your country and, in the US, state.

It is not comon for the man to get full custody, unless unfit mother.
But I hear its also come along way from the 60's, when custody was given to mothers, even if unsafe.(very hard to prove back then.)

I would say look into no fault(if your state has it), the lawyers get less money. When fighting over who gets what, remember if you have to go to court for it, it would probably be cheaper to buy another one, or three even.

I haven't filed, but am looking into it. Thats why I am passing thorugh here.

 

[ido]

Again, I have to wonder why the conversation here is about "BLAME" in regards to child maintenance payments. The issue is to do with who has primary residency for the children (according to the court order or defacto arrangments - if the petitioner/respondent has not applied/appealed).

"Blame" and "fault" are matters for financial settlement in divorce and reason for divorce itself, where they are even relevant at all.

It cracks me up to read comments about single moms who habitually neglect their children and indulge themselves. Yes, those types of single moms exist, but they are the exception rather than the norm in the circle of single moms I know.

Primary physical custody (residency) here in the US typically goes to the mother unless she walks away from the children or the parents agree the father should have it - or she is proven an unfit parent. Joint parental custody is pretty standard, as well. That means that all decisions concerning/affecting the children are supposed to be made jointly by the parents.

50/50 custody is usually only awarded b/c both parents agree to and request it.

Child support is determined by a formula. Whoever pays childcare expenses is given a "credit" for that and so is whoever pays health insurance.

I can tell you my ears are numb to hearing my ex gripe about how he thinks his child support money is being spent when he routinely sends our children home dirty, hungry, and wearing clothes two sizes too small. Proper fitting clothes never get returned to me and I have to bring dinner for them on Sunday nights at 8PM b/c they have not been fed by then (they're 7 and 4).

So, when I hear men go on about how women exploit child support money, it makes me want to gag.

 

[HuntingMan]

My ex wife took my kids away, wouldnt let me know where they where, or when i would see them next. when i did finally see them, they clung to me like there was no tomorrow. they and didnt want to go back to her, they wanted to stay with me.
but i still have to pay her no matter what. i know for fact she is using the money foolishly, but theres nothing i can do about it.
either quit my job, or continue on and pay each month regardless

Now its all making sense...