How large would a bird need to be to carry us aloft?

[dad]

Yes, birds either modern or prehistoric just aren't heavy enough or strong enough. But I am not convinced about all flying reptiles. For example, I just can't imagine this monster dropping like a rock if I saddled him up and attempted to ride him.

Another factor in flying in the former nature is that it likely was easier. I see fossils of gigantic birds that some say would have trouble flying today, or getting in the air without jumping off a hill or something.

 

[Radrook]

Another factor in flying in the former nature is that it likely was easier. I see fossils of gigantic birds that some say would have trouble flying today, or getting in the air without jumping off a hill or something.

What birds do we have today that have to waddle up a hill and jump off in order to fly?

BTW
Yes, I am familiar with the concept that our preflood atmosphere was different from what it is now. But how much different it would need to be to allow that clumsy-looking, lumbering beast which I posted recently to get off the ground without having to waddle up a hill and leap is the question,.

 

[Blackmarch]

What birds do we have today that have to waddle up a hill and jump off in order to fly?

BTW
Yes, I am familiar with the concept that our preflood atmosphere was different from what it is now. But how much different it would need to be to allow that clumsy-looking, lumbering beast which I posted recently to get off the ground without having to waddle up a hill and leap is the question,.

an increase in atmospheric pressure would help... not sure how much of an increase you could go for before the large wings become more of a hindrance than a help. probably a higher oxygen content as well. but even gliding tho with large wings the larger you go you're going to need strong shoulder joints and muscles (or possibly some sort of joint-lock) to deal with the pressures that are going to be exerted.

a couple things you may want to look up on are wing suits and gliders.... interestingly we can get to really lightweight gliders that can carry a person;
Ruppert Archaeopteryx - Wikipedia

another thing you may want to look into is wingsuits- with wingsuits, the glide area that's connected to the arms has a limit, if it gets too large or long the pressure becomes too much on the human and the arms would be pressed back behind the back... which can give a rough idea of what kind of forces you are dealing with.

for what birds that have to jump off a high place i don't think there are any flying birds that aren' capable of doing self propelled power takeoffs.... however there are some that do come close, such as the condor which can't do powered flight for very long and mostly rely on thermals to stay in the air.

 

[dad]

What birds do we have today that have to waddle up a hill and jump off in order to fly?

BTW
Yes, I am familiar with the concept that our preflood atmosphere was different from what it is now. But how much different it would need to be to allow that clumsy-looking, lumbering beast which I posted recently to get off the ground without having to waddle up a hill and leap is the question,.

Quite different. Possibly gravity also, or maybe there was another force at the time that balanced gravity or..etc.

 

[Radrook]

an increase in atmospheric pressure would help... not sure how much of an increase you could go for before the large wings become more of a hindrance than a help. probably a higher oxygen content as well. but even gliding tho with large wings the larger you go you're going to need strong shoulder joints and muscles (or possibly some sort of joint-lock) to deal with the pressures that are going to be exerted.

a couple things you may want to look up on are wing suits and gliders.... interestingly we can get to really lightweight gliders that can carry a person;
Ruppert Archaeopteryx - Wikipedia

another thing you may want to look into is wingsuits- with wingsuits, the glide area that's connected to the arms has a limit, if it gets too large or long the pressure becomes too much on the human and the arms would be pressed back behind the back... which can give a rough idea of what kind of forces you are dealing with.

for what birds that have to jump off a high place i don't think there are any flying birds that aren' capable of doing self propelled power takeoffs.... however there are some that do come close, such as the condor which can't do powered flight for very long and mostly rely on thermals to stay in the air.

I find wing-suiting much too disturbingly similar to falling straight down to feel comfortable in trying it. What is it, three feet forward for every foot descended or one foot forward for every three that one comes closer to the ground?

BTW
So in order to ride one I would need to build a time machine and go back before the flood?. With my propensity towards unusual unfortunate events it would probably savagely peck me to death and feed me to its brrod as soon as I emerged from the time continuum.

 

[Radrook]

Quite different. Possibly gravity also, or maybe there was another force at the time that balanced gravity or..etc.

I never imagined that the pre-flood Earth might have had lesser gravity. Is there any biblical or scientific basis to even imagine such a thing?

 

[Blackmarch]

I find wing-suiting much too disturbingly similar to falling straight down to feel comfortable in trying it. What is it, three feet forward for every foot descended or one foot forward for every three that one comes closer to the ground?

anywhere from 1:1 to 4:1 in general.. altho the 4:1 is difficult to achieve.(horizontal:vertical). we can't really add more surface area to increase the ratio due to being too weak to handle the pressure increase.

BTW
So in order to ride one I would need to build a time machine and go back before the flood?. With my propensity towards unusual unfortunate events it would probably savagely peck me to death and feed me to its brrod as soon as I emerged from the time continuum.

pretty much.. and be a pretty small and light person at that.

 

[Blackmarch]

I never imagined that the pre-flood Earth might have had lesser gravity. Is there any biblical or scientific basis to even imagine such a thing?

if the world was spinning faster that would have an effect... however I doubt it would have been to any amount that would be significant.

 

[Radrook]

anywhere from 1:1 to 4:1 in general.. altho the 4:1 is difficult to achieve.(horizontal:vertical). we can't really add more surface area to increase the ratio due to being too weak to handle the pressure increase.


pretty much.. and be a pretty small and light person at that.

So I would not only need to build a time machine but need to be a midget as well? I think I will just settle for hang gliding.

 

[dad]

I never imagined that the pre-flood Earth might have had lesser gravity. Is there any biblical or scientific basis to even imagine such a thing?

There are the bird fossils. There are the early pyramids .. It makes sense the stones were easier to move. There is the future where a moon sized city comes down gently to earth.

 

[JackRT]

I never imagined that the pre-flood Earth might have had lesser gravity. Is there any biblical or scientific basis to even imagine such a thing?

If there were reduced gravity at some time in the past, this would mean that the earth would have to orbit much further away from the sun. It would be a much colder less habitable world --- perhaps somewhat like Mars. If then gravity increased it would take an absolutely enormous amount of energy to move it into a closer orbit (where it is now) and at the same time increase its orbital velocity in order to remain stable in that orbit.

If conditions were different in the past there are consequences that would be detectable today. The laws of physics are quite unforgiving unless you invoke magic.

 

[Radrook]

If there were reduced gravity at some time in the past, this would mean that the earth would have to orbit much further away from the sun. It would be a much colder less habitable world --- perhaps somewhat like Mars. If then gravity increased it would take an absolutely enormous amount of energy to move it into a closer orbit (where it is now) and at the same time increase its orbital velocity in order to remain stable in that orbit.

If conditions were different in the past there are consequences that would be detectable today. The laws of physics are quite unforgiving unless you invoke magic.

Very true, and since we are under scrupulous scrutiny by beady-eyed, lurking atheists on this science forum, we definitely don't want to seem as if we are strutting around in rooster style ruffling our feathers and happily chirping "Abracadarabra!" and "Open says me!" every five seconds-right? I mean hey!-they think we are flaky enough as it is. Numb sayin?

 

[JackRT]

Very true, and since we are under scrupulous scrutiny by lurking atheists on this science forum, we definitely don't want to seem as if we are strutting around wizard-like happily chirping "Abracadarabra!" and "Open says me!" every five seconds-right? I mean-they think we are flaky enough as it is.

"Abracadabra" is so old hat. Personally, I prefer "Oooo Eeee Ooo Ahhh Ahhh Ting Tang Walla Walla Bing Bang".

 

[Radrook]

There are the bird fossils. There are the early pyramids .. It makes sense the stones were easier to move. There is the future where a moon sized city comes down gently to earth.

Yes, I am aware that there are indeed monoliths and other extremely ancient structures which defy our understanding on how the were moved. Such have been attributed to giants or nephilim. Others the non-biblical explanation of alien technology. This is the first time that I see lesser gravity being suggested as the cause.


BTW

My understanding concerning the city that descends as described in Revelation, New Jerusalem, represents the Christian Church or the Bride of Christ.

Please consider the following scriptures.

2 Corinthians 11:2 ►
New International Version
I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.

Eph 5: 26
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.…

Revelation 21:2
I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Some food for thought (pun intended)

Pizza delivering bird

 

[dad]

Yes, I am aware that there are indeed monoliths and other extremely ancient structures which defy our understanding on how the were moved. Such have been attributed to giants or nephilim. Others the non-biblical explanation of alien technology. This is the first time that I see lesser gravity being suggested as the cause.

Thanks. I try to come up with original ideas. But to be clear it may not be lesser gravity, but possibly some previously existing other force that (at least at times in the day) countermanded the force of gravity.

BTW

My understanding concerning the city that descends as described in Revelation, New Jerusalem, represents the Christian Church or the Bride of Christ.

Please consider the following scriptures.

Yes, I know. It is our eternal home. On earth we are pilgrims and visitors now. The city has real trees, walls, mansions, gold, streets, dimensions and etc. It is the place where God dwells, and we go to be with Him when we die. That is our HOME. The hope of ages. To try to spiritualize it away as some unreal concept in the ether is wrong.

 

[Blackmarch]

Yes, I am aware that there are indeed monoliths and other extremely ancient structures which defy our understanding on how the were moved. Such have been attributed to giants or nephilim. Others the non-biblical explanation of alien technology. This is the first time that I see lesser gravity being suggested as the cause.


BTW

My understanding concerning the city that descends as described in Revelation, New Jerusalem, represents the Christian Church or the Bride of Christ.

Please consider the following scriptures.

Id lean towards giants.... Some pretty nteresting things were found by early settlers and in america. Had a scholar in who was of the opinion that the folks who raised stonehenge disappeared because they came over to the americas, and that they were large in stature.


But back to the bird line, i had a thought; artificial genetic manipulation + a large moon colony (say perhaps a large dome type). You could probably get a stuation there where you could be carried by a large bird

 

[Radrook]

Id lean towards giants.... Some pretty nteresting things were found by early settlers and in america. Had a scholar in who was of the opinion that the folks who raised stonehenge disappeared because they came over to the americas, and that they were large in stature.


But back to the bird line, i had a thought; artificial genetic manipulation + a large moon colony (say perhaps a large dome type). You could probably get a stuation there where you could be carried by a large bird

Yes I have read about those Native American giant skeletal remains with double rows of teeth. Also, the Egyptian hieroglyphs show giants lugging pyramid blocks and hovering over giraffes and normal sized humans.

Birds on the moon? Say! That's not a bad idea. Due to lesser gravity! Still the birds available seem rather skinny for us to saddle up.

 

[Blackmarch]

Yes I have read about those Native American giant skeletal remains with double rows of teeth. Also, the Egyptian hieroglyphs show giants lugging pyramid blocks and hovering over giraffes and normal sized humans.

Birds on the moon? Say! That's not a bad idea. Due to lesser gravity! Still the birds available seem rather skinny for us to saddle up.

Ya thats why there would have to be a high level of gene editing and/or splicing to get one to be big enough to ride.

 

[JackRT]

There is no evidence whatsoever of a giant race of human beings. We also now have a very good idea of how both Stonehenge and the pyramids were constructed. They did not have metal tools or machine power but the ancient engineers were very clever.