How Ladies can be a Bishop?

[Lovely Lane]

Why does the United Methodist Church ordain women, especially when certain passages of Scripture seem to suggest that they not be given ministerial standing? Especially pertinent are statements in the New Testament that women should not teach or have authority over men (1 Tim. 2:8-15) and should not speak in church (I Cor. 14:34-35).

United Methodism and the Ordination of Women

We believe that the Holy Spirit continues to lead, revealing God’s will in ways that previous generations may not have discerned as we face new situations and questions of critical import in our time. On some matters we believe that we understand more clearly God’s will than Christians of previous generations.Now, more specifically on the question of the ordination of women. Methodists begin by underscoring the point that all baptized Christians are ministers of the gospel. “Our links with the apostolic faith... lead us solemnly to affirm… that all who are baptized into Christ are members of Christ’s ministry....” (Social Principles, 153) Hence, all of us--men and women--in the Methodist fold are called to witness to Jesus as Lord and Savior. Further, we believe that in the sight of God all--men and women--are equal. “We affirm with Scripture the common humanity of male and female, both having equal worth in the eyes of God.” (Social Principles, 35) If these affirmations are taken seriously, it is only logical that our Church would conclude that ordained ministry should be open to both men and women--regardless of what some texts of Scripture might suggest to the contrary.

Women Clergy

 

[Victory of the Cross]

Why does the United Methodist Church ordain women, especially when certain passages of Scripture seem to suggest that they not be given ministerial standing? Especially pertinent are statements in the New Testament that women should not teach or have authority over men (1 Tim. 2:8-15) and should not speak in church (I Cor. 14:34-35).

United Methodism and the Ordination of Women
Women Clergy

Because Paul's beliefs/letters of personal non inspired opinion (which often disagree with Christ) and 50cents will get you a 50cent candy bar at most mom and pop stores

Where did Jesus say women couldn't be bishops?

In fact where did Jesus say he even wanted bishops?

 

[ZaidaBoBaida]

I really think that slamming my head into my desk repeatedly would be a more
productive use of my time than taking part in this conversation. People who say women can’t be in ministry base their entire world view on TWO verses by Paul when the entire
rest of the Bible - including other writings of Paul’s - would support the idea
that - Yeah, women can be in these roles. Really, this rates up there with when
certain denominations (SBC included) used scripture to justify slavery. You need
to feel superior to someone. Paul was writing to people who came from one of the most misogynistic societies in the ancient world. He was not going to let a women’s movement in the church hinder the spread of the Gospel - which is EXACTLY what would have happened.


I must point out that the Greek word diakonos, which is translated as deacon or minister for men is translated servant for women. Oh gee - some deliberate distortion of the original text by translators? Maybe. They almost certainly deliberately mistranslated Romans 16:7 when they deliberately mistranslated the name of Junia to try and make it appear that she was male – since you know Paul describes her as an apostle. So, they changed her name to Junias ( a name that didn’t exist at the time of Paul) and used deliberately male pronouns to describe her). Young’s Literal Translation translates Romans 16:1 as, “And I commend you to Phebe our sister — being a ministrant of the assembly that is in Cenchreae” Other translations translate it as deacon or elder.

I give to you Deborah - a judge and a leader of Israel.

I give to you Phoebe a deacon/minister in the church.

I give to you Prisca - Acts 18:26 tells us that she and Aquilla BOTH taught Apollos the ways of God. Anytime, Paul mentions Aquilla he mentions Prisca. Their names are always in tandem, and she is credited as doing all of the things her husband did. They were a team.

Finally, these never ending discussions about the role of women in the
church is nothing short of soul killing for many women. As someone pointed out,
it sounds more like a discussion worthy of the Taliban. How many women either 1)
won’t come to Christ because you all portray the church as a misogynistic boys
club, or 2) have left the church because of it?

Now, if you’ll excuse me I’m going to go bang my head on my desk for awhile.

 

[Albion]

I really think that slamming my head into my desk repeatedly would be a more
productive use of my time than taking part in this conversation. People who say women can’t be in ministry base their entire world view on TWO verses by Paul when the entire

I don't want to make this another pro vs anti debate when the OP didn't ask for that exactly, but you are quite wrong about that. There are a number of verses and reasons for not changing the historic way while, on the other hand, the arguments in favor of women's ordination are confined almost totally to ONE verse from Paul and rationalistic, emotional arguments.

I must point out that the Greek word diakonos, which is translated as deacon or minister for men is translated servant for women. Oh gee

No, we are aware that it means servant in all cases.

I give to you Deborah - a judge and a leader of Israel.

Not a clerical office.

I give to you Phoebe a deacon/minister in the church.

A deaconess, you mean. Also not an ordained minister.

And so on. There are many references to women in postions of leadership and importance, but none of that matters when the discussion is about ordination to the ranks of clergy.

In any case, the OP asked about women as BISHOPS, and I suggest we stay on topic.

 

[Albion]

Because Paul's beliefs/letters of personal non inspired opinion (which often disagree with Christ) and 50cents will get you a 50cent candy bar at most mom and pop stores

Where did Jesus say women couldn't be bishops?

In fact where did Jesus say he even wanted bishops?

You are right, of course. If we discard a number of books from the Bible, we can easily argue this issue or many others simply on the basis of practicality. Most of us cannot justify considering part of the Bible to be merely personal opinion, and therefore non-binding, while other parts are considered inspired.

 

[florida2]

It's a very sad day for the Church of England that a small minority of members managed to block the introduction of women bishops. Very sad.

 

[Albion]

It's a very sad day for the Church of England that a small minority of members managed to block the introduction of women bishops. Very sad.

...and if the vote had gone the other way, I'd be reading about how we have to accept the outcome because it was a fair and square vote.

 

[Lovely Lane]

Because Paul's beliefs/letters of personal non inspired opinion (which often disagree with Christ) and 50cents will get you a 50cent candy bar at most mom and pop stores

Where did Jesus say women couldn't be bishops?

In fact where did Jesus say he even wanted bishops?

lol... good questions. That seems to hit to close to the core of institutionalized religious organizations across the world.

 

[Lovely Lane]

...and if the vote had gone the other way, I'd be reading about how we have to accept the outcome because it was a fair and square vote.

Maybe so, it's only human nature to express disappointment.
Thank goodness I'm not apart of a religious organization like that one. I would hope that the women members of that organization revolt, stand up and act like they got a clue into what is going on there. Sexism and discrimination leap to mind at first glance.

 

[Ringo84]

If it were only a job, it probably wouldn't.

Which doesn't answer my question.

A deaconess, you mean. Also not an ordained minister.

A deaconess had many of the same roles as an ordained minister:

Several deaconesses are specifically commended who took part in the Jesus movement alongside himself. Two of these women are Priscilla and Phoebe of the church in Cenchreae. He describes both of these women as "helpers of many" and "servants of the church whose business in Rome warranted the support of all the saints" (Rom 16:1–2).[19] When Paul mentions Phoebe, "our sister Phoebe [the] ἀδελφήν which means (sister) of the church of Cenchreae", he adds "she has been a helper of many and of myself as well". In describing her role and his in the congregation, Paul uses the Greek verb meaning "to be at the head of, to rule, to direct". In addition, Paul also speaks of other female ministers such as Mary, Tryphaena, Typhosa and Persis whom he writes "worked hard in the Lord" and "workers in the Lord" (v. 12). The contribution of these women is described by the same verb, χοπιάω, used to describe "toil" and "labour" (Matthew 11.28; John 4.6). Moreover, Paul uses this verb to describe his own work for the Lord and other apostolic labours. In addition, Mary's labour described as "among you" or "for your benefit" (v. 6) suggest a recognized role of ministry within the church .[20] The church at Philippi is another example of early female leadership where women both founded and controlled the church's ministry. In Paul’s letter to the Philippian church, he addresses the three female leaders, Euodia, Syntyche and a third, for which he uses the affectionate term, syzugē to mean "mate" (Phil. 4:1-3).[21] Through the Pauline epistles it is clear that deaconesses and other women exercised important roles identified and recognized as central within the office of the church.

Source: Deaconess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most of us cannot justify considering part of the Bible to be merely personal opinion, and therefore non-binding, while other parts are considered inspired.

Perhaps, but we all do it anyway. When was the last time you stoned disobedient children?
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

If it were only a job, it probably wouldn't.

Which doesn't answer my question.

A deaconess, you mean. Also not an ordained minister.

A deaconess had many of the same roles as an ordained minister:

Several deaconesses are specifically commended who took part in the Jesus movement alongside himself. Two of these women are Priscilla and Phoebe of the church in Cenchreae. He describes both of these women as "helpers of many" and "servants of the church whose business in Rome warranted the support of all the saints" (Rom 16:1–2).[19] When Paul mentions Phoebe, "our sister Phoebe [the] ἀδελφήν which means (sister) of the church of Cenchreae", he adds "she has been a helper of many and of myself as well". In describing her role and his in the congregation, Paul uses the Greek verb meaning "to be at the head of, to rule, to direct". In addition, Paul also speaks of other female ministers such as Mary, Tryphaena, Typhosa and Persis whom he writes "worked hard in the Lord" and "workers in the Lord" (v. 12). The contribution of these women is described by the same verb, χοπιάω, used to describe "toil" and "labour" (Matthew 11.28; John 4.6). Moreover, Paul uses this verb to describe his own work for the Lord and other apostolic labours. In addition, Mary's labour described as "among you" or "for your benefit" (v. 6) suggest a recognized role of ministry within the church .[20] The church at Philippi is another example of early female leadership where women both founded and controlled the church's ministry. In Paul’s letter to the Philippian church, he addresses the three female leaders, Euodia, Syntyche and a third, for which he uses the affectionate term, syzugē to mean "mate" (Phil. 4:1-3).[21] Through the Pauline epistles it is clear that deaconesses and other women exercised important roles identified and recognized as central within the office of the church.

Source: Deaconess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most of us cannot justify considering part of the Bible to be merely personal opinion, and therefore non-binding, while other parts are considered inspired.

Perhaps, but we all do it anyway. When was the last time you stoned disobedient children?
Ringo

 

[Ringo84]

If it were only a job, it probably wouldn't.

Which doesn't answer my question.

A deaconess, you mean. Also not an ordained minister.

A deaconess had many of the same roles as an ordained minister:

Several deaconesses are specifically commended who took part in the Jesus movement alongside himself. Two of these women are Priscilla and Phoebe of the church in Cenchreae. He describes both of these women as "helpers of many" and "servants of the church whose business in Rome warranted the support of all the saints" (Rom 16:1–2).[19] When Paul mentions Phoebe, "our sister Phoebe [the] ἀδελφήν which means (sister) of the church of Cenchreae", he adds "she has been a helper of many and of myself as well". In describing her role and his in the congregation, Paul uses the Greek verb meaning "to be at the head of, to rule, to direct". In addition, Paul also speaks of other female ministers such as Mary, Tryphaena, Typhosa and Persis whom he writes "worked hard in the Lord" and "workers in the Lord" (v. 12). The contribution of these women is described by the same verb, χοπιάω, used to describe "toil" and "labour" (Matthew 11.28; John 4.6). Moreover, Paul uses this verb to describe his own work for the Lord and other apostolic labours. In addition, Mary's labour described as "among you" or "for your benefit" (v. 6) suggest a recognized role of ministry within the church .[20] The church at Philippi is another example of early female leadership where women both founded and controlled the church's ministry. In Paul’s letter to the Philippian church, he addresses the three female leaders, Euodia, Syntyche and a third, for which he uses the affectionate term, syzugē to mean "mate" (Phil. 4:1-3).[21] Through the Pauline epistles it is clear that deaconesses and other women exercised important roles identified and recognized as central within the office of the church.

Source: Deaconess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most of us cannot justify considering part of the Bible to be merely personal opinion, and therefore non-binding, while other parts are considered inspired.

Perhaps, but we all do it anyway. When was the last time you stoned disobedient children?
Ringo

 

[wordsoflife]

Taken from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod's website on the ordination of women:

Greetings to you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Many denominations ordain women to the pastoral
office, even some Lutheran churches. It is important
that Missouri Synod Lutherans be able to give a kindly
response and explanation to those who may question our
position on this issue.We have an opportunity to speak the
truth in love.
What does God say about women serving in
the pastoral office?
The Lord teaches us through His Word that women are not
given the responsibility of serving the church as pastors.We
read the following statements:
“As in all the churches of the saints, the women should
keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to
speak,but should be subordinate,as even the law says …what
I am writing to you is a command of the Lord” (1 Cor.
14:33–34,37).
“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I
permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she
is to keep silent”(1 Tim.2:11–12).
“The saying is sure: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer,
he desires a noble task.Now an overseer must be above
reproach,the husband of one wife…”(1 Tim.3:1–2).
“This is why I left you in Crete …that you might appoint
elders in every town as I directed you,if any man is blameless,
the husband of one wife…”(Titus 1:5–6).
God has given His church many gifts.Among them is the
gift of the office of the public, pastoral ministry.We receive
what God gives, in the way He has given it, and in the form
He has given it.We do not tell God that His gift is not good
enough for us,or that we don’t like the form in which He has
given the gift.We receive God’s gifts as He gives them,with
thanks and praise.We rejoice in the opportunities God has
given us,as His redeemed people,to serve Him in the church,
and in our daily lives.
The church which wishes to remain faithful to the Word of
God cannot permit the ordination of women to the pastoral
office.
The Bible says that we are all one in Christ.Don’t these
words imply that women may serve as pastors?
There are those churches which believe that St. Paul’s
words in Gal.3:28 mandate the service of women as pastors:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek,there is neither slave nor free,
there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ
Jesus.”
But this verse does not teach that there is no distinction
between these various groups; rather,it teaches the equality of
salvation that all Christians have in Christ Jesus our Lord.Paul
wants us to know that all individuals are equally sinful and
equally saved by the work of God through Jesus Christ.
Gal. 3:28 does not contradict or overturn St.Paul’s comments
elsewhere. This passage does not speak to the issue of
the ordination of women; instead it is speaking of the equality
of our salvation in Christ,for which we praise the Triune God,
but it certainly does not mean that all may serve as pastors.
If men and women have equal rights,why can’t women
be pastors?
The issue of the ordination of women is not a matter of
“human rights” or “church traditions” or various human
opinions and customs.Nor is it a matter of “discrimination
against women.”
Various social reformers in our culture would have us
believe that men and women are totally interchangeable and
that their God-given differences simply have no bearing on life
in this world. Not only does this run contrary to the clear testimony
of nature,it also contradicts the Bible.The Bible teaches
us a different view of God’s creation.
The Scriptures teach us that both men and women were
created in the image of God,but are two distinct and special
creations of God.We praise God for His wisdom in creating
human beings as both man and woman.
We believe that God has gifted men and women with different
responsibilities and duties. For example,men are gifted
by God to be husbands and fathers;women are gifted by God
to be wives and mothers. So also in the church,God has gifted
men and women with different, though complementary,
opportunities and responsibilities for service.
What are the roles of men and women in the church?
Together,men and women serve their Lord and Savior
Jesus Christ.Men have the divine obligation to be the spiritual leaders of the church. Women are called to be of assistance to
men in this capacity. An attitude of service guides what we do
in the church, not a demand for “rights” or an attitude of
“lording it over” one another.We have one Lord and one
Master,Jesus Christ.We serve Him in the ways He desires.
God has given the responsibility to serve as pastors only to
certain qualified men.The church calls these men to serve as
representatives of Jesus Christ,the Son of God,in the pastoral
office.Women are not called to serve in this way because God
has not given this responsibility to women.
Why didn’t Jesus call a woman to serve as an apostle? Why,
through the Apostle Paul,does He prohibit women from serving
as pastors in the church? We must leave the answers to
these questions to God.We remain with what has been given to
us by God in His Word. God has not given the church the
option of calling and ordaining women to the pastoral office.
We honor and respect God’s will in these matters and praise
Him for the many gifts He has given us all,including the marvelous
opportunities He provides to both men and women to
serve Him.
Why then do some churches ordain women as pastors?
Here again, as with so many issues, the reason for differences
we have with other church bodies is based on their differing
attitude toward the Scriptures.
Our Synod affirms the truth that the Holy Scriptures are
God’s perfect and errorless revelation to us.We receive what
God has given to us in His Word.We are not free to overlook
that Word, ignore it, explain it away, or otherwise disregard
what the Lord has revealed through the Apostle Paul.
Churches that ordain women have chosen to regard St.
Paul’s writings as his own personal opinions.This is a difficult
position to maintain in light of the fact that St.Paul goes out of
his way,on more than one occasion, to repeat his position on
this matter, and explicitly declares that this is not merely his
personal opinion,but a command of the Lord.
How can faithful Lutherans respond to the ordination
of women?
First,we never should become defensive or antagonistic
about this issue.Instead,we need simply to speak the truth in
love, witnessing to our beliefs and recognizing this as yet
another opportunity to say, “This we believe, teach, confess
and practice.”
Second,we need to be loving and gentle with people who
belong to church bodies that ordain women. In many
instances,they are simply unaware of why this has been done.
They have been given incorrect information and have no clear
foundation in Scripture to understand why the ordination of
women is contrary to the Word of God.We need to explain
these issues in love,with gentleness and compassion.
Third, it is important for us to explain how women may
serve their Lord in the church in a fulfilling manner.There are
many ways for women to serve as full-time church workers
in The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod,including service
as teachers, directors of Christian education, directors of
Christian outreach, deaconesses and parish nurses.
Laywomen have many opportunities for service through various
church societies,guilds and leagues,along with the service
they provide as volunteer teachers. They have additional
opportunities to serve in their local congregations as members
of various boards and committees.We thank God for the many
blessings and gifts that come to the church through the service
of women.
We need to emphasize the opportunities that God has provided
to all of us,both men and women,to serve Him in His
kingdom.How unfortunate it would be if we permitted ourselves
to become ensnared in self-centered demands for
“rights,”and thus take our eyes off of our Lord’s call to service.
Demanding from God what He has not given is contrary to
what it means to be a child of God.When our focus is on love
and service to one another,we realize that there is more than
enough for all of us to do.
We serve each other in love,conforming our service to the
Word of God. Nobody in the church is called to be the “master”
over anyone else. Pastors are Christ’s servants who care for the
people of God with Christ’s Word and Sacraments. Thus,
through these gifts,our Lord graciously gives Himself to us for
our salvation, in humble sacrificial service, according to His
Father’s will.We are privileged to be able to follow Christ’s
example with thankfulness in our hearts for His many gifts,
most importantly the gifts of forgiveness, life and salvation.
May God bless our service to Him,for the sake of the Gospel of
Christ our Lord.

— Dr.A.L.Barry
President
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

 

[Ringo84]

The Lord teaches us through His Word that women are not
given the responsibility of serving the church as pastors.We
read the following statements:
“As in all the churches of the saints, the women should
keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to
speak,but should be subordinate,as even the law says …what
I am writing to you is a command of the Lord” (1 Cor.
14:33–34,37).[/quote]

I don't believe that verse says anything about women being unable to preach or hold office in the church...just that "I do not permit a woman to speak".

“The saying is sure: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer,
he desires a noble task.Now an overseer must be above
reproach,the husband of one wife…”(1 Tim.3:1–2).
“This is why I left you in Crete …that you might appoint
elders in every town as I directed you,if any man is blameless,
the husband of one wife…”(Titus 1:5–6).

These verses refer to elders and "overseers" - not pastors.

Various social reformers in our culture would have us
believe that men and women are totally interchangeable and
that their God-given differences simply have no bearing on life
in this world. Not only does this run contrary to the clear testimony
of nature,it also contradicts the Bible.The Bible teaches
us a different view of God’s creation.

I don't believe that anyone is making that particular argument. Only that there doesn't seem to be any practical reason that dictates women's inability to preach.
Ringo

 

[wordsoflife]

Only that there doesn't seem to be any practical reason that dictates women's inability to preach.

You didn't address this passage:
“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I
permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she
is to keep silent”(1 Tim.2:11–12)

 

[Albion]

A deaconess had many of the same roles as an ordained minister

Of course they did (and do). So do lay ministers, Church administrators, Sunday School educators, and nuns.

I agree with you that they had "many" of the same roles or responsibilities as deacons, and I appreciate that you kmow it isn't "all." Deaconesses still exist, you know.

 

[Ringo84]

You didn't address this passage:
“Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I
permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she
is to keep silent”(1 Tim.2:11–12)

Yes I did. I said that verse doesn't seem to say that women can't preach or hold office - only that "I do not permit a woman to teach".

What are the rationales for women "keeping silent"?

Of course they did (and do). So do lay ministers, Church administrators, Sunday School educators, and nuns.

I agree with you that they had "many" of the same roles or responsibilities as deacons, and I appreciate that you kmow it isn't "all." Deaconesses still exist, you know.

The difference being that the roles you listed don't carry with them a ministerial role like the office of deaconess.
Ringo

 

[wordsoflife]

Yes I did. I said that verse doesn't seem to say that women can't preach or hold office - only that "I do not permit a woman to teach".

And how do you presume a women is going to be a Bishop without teaching, this seems like a ridiculous suggestion.

 

[Ringo84]

What are the rationales for women "remaining silent"?
Ringo

 

[wordsoflife]

What are the rationales for women "remaining silent"?

Women are the weaker vessel and are to be in submission and subjection to the male who is the head.