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How Ladies can be a Bishop?

Women should be bishop or not?

  • Yes

  • No

  • If NO/Why


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TheDag

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Read posts 116, 127, and 131 where this is answered.
the only problem is you refuse to answer a question. You refuse to answer how a woman can teach sunday school if she is to be silent. Why do you need to answer that? if you interpret the word men literally as being males only then you must also literally interpret the passages saying women must keep quiet. Yet you contradict your interpretation by dismissing the scriptures that say women must be quiet in church so they can teach sunday school because most men would consider that to be below them if they are honest. untill you answer that question you are just another person sticking to your pre formed opinions who has no intention of actually considering what others say so you don't have to think.
 
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Albion

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the only problem is you refuse to answer a question. You refuse to answer how a woman can teach sunday school if she is to be silent.

That's because I do not advocate that a woman keep silent!!!!!!!!!!!


And I've already answered this question, anyway. :sigh:


How many more times are you going to attribute to me something written and believed by SOME OTHER POSTER????????????? :doh:
 
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TheDag

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That's because I do not advocate that a woman keep silent!!!!!!!!!!!


And I've already answered this question, anyway. :sigh:


How many more times are you going to attribute to me something written and believed by SOME OTHER POSTER????????????? :doh:
I didn't say you said it. you didn't answer the question but rather avoided it. How can you interpret a passage as literally as you do and then ignore this passage? That is what I am trying to understand. Seems like cherry picking which parts of the bible you want to follow.
 
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Cjwinnit

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I didn't say you said it. you didn't answer the question but rather avoided it. How can you interpret a passage as literally as you do and then ignore this passage? That is what I am trying to understand. Seems like cherry picking which parts of the bible you want to follow.

So when christians of a liberal persuasion take some bits literallly and others metaphorically it's OK, but not when others do so? I don't understand.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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<snip>
In the service of the Church, these duties that women fulfil in the Church and not done unilaterally by these women; rather they are fulfilling these duties under direct supervision and oversight and direction of the Pastors, Elders, Deacons, (both Lay and Consecrated/Ordained depending on the Practice of the particular communion) Synod Presidents, Bishops etc. All offices held by only males, called to the service of the various Communions.

I'm sorry if this offends the "liberals", but it is as it was, as it is, and as it shall continue to be.

<snip>

:amen:

the only problem is you refuse to answer a question. You refuse to answer how a woman can teach sunday school if she is to be silent. Why do you need to answer that? if you interpret the word men literally as being males only then you must also literally interpret the passages saying women must keep quiet. Yet you contradict your interpretation by dismissing the scriptures that say women must be quiet in church so they can teach sunday school because most men would consider that to be below them if they are honest. untill you answer that question you are just another person sticking to your pre formed opinions who has no intention of actually considering what others say so you don't have to think.

I already answered this above; please read if you have missed it.:)
 
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TheDag

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I already answered this above; please read if you have missed it.:)
No you have not answered it. the passage quoted to support your argument says WOMEN MUST KEEP SILENT. So hiw are they keeping silent while teaching? Are they using sign language or something. all you explained above is why they are not going against the instruction to not have authority over a man. that is not what was asked.
 
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TheDag

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So when christians of a liberal persuasion take some bits literallly and others metaphorically it's OK, but not when others do so? I don't understand.

The passages he has chosen to take literally rules out any justification for not taking this other passage lierally. so of course he can but lets also see the justification for why interpreting that way for both passages. bet i could make a hole in his argument big enough to drive a truck through!
 
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Albion

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I didn't say you said it. you didn't answer the question but rather avoided it. How can you interpret a passage as literally as you do and then ignore this passage? That is what I am trying to understand. Seems like cherry picking which parts of the bible you want to follow.

Look, there's been a clean-up and a bunch of new posts since I last checked this thread. i find you telling several different people that they didn't answer something plus some other accusations....but there's no indication of what you are referring to. You're going to have to set this up clearly, state your point, and show us what the problem is that you think you see.
 
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TheDag

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Look, there's been a clean-up and a bunch of new posts since I last checked this thread. i find you telling several different people that they didn't answer something plus some other accusations....but there's no indication of what you are referring to. You're going to have to set this up clearly, state your point, and show us what the problem is that you think you see.
For you I am interested how you can justify taking certain passages literally when there is possible claim that they shouldn't but not take other passages literally that have no justification for not doing so if you take literally that when the bible talks about being the husband of one wife.

For Mark Rohfrietsch he has quoted the passage that says women are to keep silent in church as support of why women should not be allowed to be bishops yet he is happy to allow them to teach sunday school. So he needs to explain why we should take the passage he quotes but ignore one verse in the middle of the passage. his answer is that because the women are acting under the authority of the minister it is ok but that does not explain how the verse that women are to keep silent is justifiably ignored.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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No you have not answered it. the passage quoted to support your argument says WOMEN MUST KEEP SILENT. So hiw are they keeping silent while teaching? Are they using sign language or something. all you explained above is why they are not going against the instruction to not have authority over a man. that is not what was asked.

The passages he has chosen to take literally rules out any justification for not taking this other passage lierally. so of course he can but lets also see the justification for why interpreting that way for both passages. bet i could make a hole in his argument big enough to drive a truck through!

When it comes to "literal" interpretation, there are freight-train sized holes in the interpretation, theology and practice of many Churches (the Real Presence, the efficacy of the Sacraments, the proper uses of Law and Gospel to mention a few, which are topics for another thread). We do the very best that we can with what we have to work with.

For you I am interested how you can justify taking certain passages literally when there is possible claim that they shouldn't but not take other passages literally that have no justification for not doing so if you take literally that when the bible talks about being the husband of one wife.

For Mark Rohfrietsch he has quoted the passage that says women are to keep silent in church as support of why women should not be allowed to be bishops yet he is happy to allow them to teach sunday school. So he needs to explain why we should take the passage he quotes but ignore one verse in the middle of the passage. his answer is that because the women are acting under the authority of the minister it is ok but that does not explain how the verse that women are to keep silent is justifiably ignored.

I guess you could also go so far, using your argument, that mothers then should not nurture their own children, helping them to grow in the faith, either, which would be absurd. In this day and age, parents are busy, often both work; parents and God-parents often do not have the resources to fulfil the commitments to bring children up in the faith as they promised to do at their children's baptism, unfortunately, there are few who have the time or the resources to provide the spiritual nurturing, instruction in the Bible that is so important for the nurturing of the young. As a result, the Church, through it's teaching authority, provides Sunday-school and "surrogate" teachers (male and female) to provide the instruction that is often lacking at home. As I stated above, such is done under the direct oversight and authority of the Church by the ordained Clergy and the Elders/Deacons.

In our tradition, Sunday-school and the public worship services of the Church are held at two separate times. We encourage attendance for the children at both Sunday-school and Divine Service.

In our Congregation, our Pastor opens Sunday-school with the short office of Morning Prayer and a short homily explaining the appointed readings; after which the children go to their classes; and Pastor leads an adult Bible Study; Following these, our Pastor leads us all through the celebration of the Divine Service.

Would you have the Church neglect the spiritual life of the Children?

Look, there's been a clean-up and a bunch of new posts since I last checked this thread. i find you telling several different people that they didn't answer something plus some other accusations....but there's no indication of what you are referring to. You're going to have to set this up clearly, state your point, and show us what the problem is that you think you see.

Thanks Albion, I tried one more time; although I'm sure that some here will still find that it's not good enough.:D;)^_^
 
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TheDag

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When it comes to "literal" interpretation, there are freight-train sized holes in the interpretation, theology and practice of many Churches (the Real Presence, the efficacy of the Sacraments, the proper uses of Law and Gospel to mention a few, which are topics for another thread). We do the very best that we can with what we have to work with.
i agree there can be problems. I don't agree that you or the LCMS have done the best with what you have to work with in this case.

I guess you could also go so far, using your argument, that mothers then should not nurture their own children, helping them to grow in the faith, either, which would be absurd.
Is this a poor attempt at argument by ridicule??? I never said that or advocated that. I also never said you advocated that. perhaps a more careful reading would help.

In this day and age, parents are busy, often both work; parents and God-parents often do not have the resources to fulfil the commitments to bring children up in the faith as they promised to do at their children's baptism, unfortunately, there are few who have the time or the resources to provide the spiritual nurturing, instruction in the Bible that is so important for the nurturing of the young. As a result, the Church, through it's teaching authority, provides Sunday-school and "surrogate" teachers (male and female) to provide the instruction that is often lacking at home. As I stated above, such is done under the direct oversight and authority of the Church by the ordained Clergy and the Elders/Deacons.
So you make adjustments to the word to suit current day cultural situations. Fine but why not be consistant and do the same when it comes to women being bishops. You want it both ways. Either the whole passage should be interpreted literally with no allowance for cultural situations or the entire passage should be interpreted with cultural considerations. However you are doing both to the exact same passage. That is where the double standards come in. You are being inconsistant.

In our tradition, Sunday-school and the public worship services of the Church are held at two separate times. We encourage attendance for the children at both Sunday-school and Divine Service.
they are both still church and if you interpret a passage literally you should not be ignoring one verse in the middle of that passage. There is no justification for interpreting one verse in the middle of a passage that is clearly connected differently to the verses immeadiately before and immeadiately after. That simply is not good hermenuetics.

Would you have the Church neglect the spiritual life of the Children?
never suggested that so would appreciate you not trying to throw in a diversion. Just said that if you quote a passage and use the literal injterpretation that you do you shouldn't totally ignore one verse that is part of that passage. So in your case that would mean that it would have to be men teaching sunday school and no women is all. That wouldn't be neglecting spiritual life of children but would mean that they are being consistant in their application of the one single passage.

Thanks Albion, I tried one more time; although I'm sure that some here will still find that it's not good enough.
You can keep repeating that it is done under the authority of the pastor all you like but that does not change the fact that because it suits them to they completly ignore the verse saying women should keep silent but rely on the rest of that passage as evidence that women should not be bishops or have authority over a man. I understand they are acting under authority of the pastor, elders etc etc. I am not disputing that so I do not know why you keep repeating that when what I am disputing is the choice to ignore one verse that is part of a passage that you interpret literally.
 
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Albion

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For you I am interested how you can justify taking certain passages literally when there is possible claim that they shouldn't but not take other passages literally that have no justification for not doing so if you take literally that when the bible talks about being the husband of one wife.

Some parts of scripture must be taken literally and others not. Most of us readily admit to that. I assume you do also. There is no hint that the wording in the passsages that deal with the qualifications for one to be a deacon or presbyter/bishop are anything but intended to be read literally. If you see them as poetic language or a vast analogy like the Book of Revelation, explain that to me and I will be happy to have your explanation.

For Mark Rohfrietsch he has quoted the passage that says women are to keep silent in church as support of why women should not be allowed to be bishops yet he is happy to allow them to teach sunday school. So he needs to explain why we should take the passage he quotes but ignore one verse in the middle of the passage. his answer is that because the women are acting under the authority of the minister it is ok but that does not explain how the verse that women are to keep silent is justifiably ignored.
I would suppose that he means that they should not take it upon themselves to start preaching, etc. during the services of the church (as opposed to personal and private exchanges). That was the situation Paul was referring to, almost all theologians seem to agree. However, Mark will speak for himself and I did not make that point, so please treat my comments about male bishops separately.
 
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