How is it consistent to criticize the left for hating America AND not having an objective morality ?

[perplexed]

I don't see inconsistency in holding both opinions

If you delete a key elements of both elements I discussed this is true, I am guessing you just read the title

 

[grasping the after wind]

So if He decided that it was right then it would be. Then you'd say 'murder is right'.

Now I've a good idea what you might say next. Which is 'God wouldn't actually decide that'. Which means that you have personally decided that murder is wrong and you don't believe that God would say something that you think is so obviously wrong.

Don't try to read minds. You don't seem to be very good at it. If God decided that murder was just fine, then it would be just fine. Just as it is just fine to kill a cow and eat it or uproot a weed that I don't like in my garden. Do you think murder is wrong? If so, why do you think it is wrong?

 

[grasping the after wind]

If you delete a key elements of both elements I discussed this is true, I am guessing you just read the title

What key elements would that be? Your guess is wrong. I read the entire post and found nothing there that would convince me that there is any inconsistency in holding the two opinions simultaneously. I see no reason why hating American and not believing in objective morality are mutually exclusive attitudes. I think you should argue that the person pr people that are attacking your position are stereotyping and generalizing as that seems to be true but i cannot see how they are being inconsistent.

 

[Hammster]

Why does it interest you

I’m always trying to get atheists to see that their views on good and evil have no grounding. I find this to be a good opportunity to do just that.

 

[Hammster]

So if He decided that it was right then it would be. Then you'd say 'murder is right'.

Now I've a good idea what you might say next. Which is 'God wouldn't actually decide that'. Which means that you have personally decided that murder is wrong and you don't believe that God would say something that you think is so obviously wrong.

I would say that He didn’t decide it was right, in that He wasn’t sitting around trying to figure out which way He’d land on the subject. Murder is wrong because of His nature. He is life. He is sovereign. He is creator. And murder usurps His authority.

 

[Bradskii]

Don't try to read minds. You don't seem to be very good at it. If God decided that murder was just fine, then it would be just fine.

Do you know the things that people do when they are convinced that God has told them what to do and they don't question it? When they say that 'if God told me to murder then it would be just fine.'

What would you do if He told you to kill someone?

 

[Bradskii]

I would say that He didn’t decide it was right, in that He wasn’t sitting around trying to figure out which way He’d land on the subject. Murder is wrong because of His nature. He is life. He is sovereign. He is creator. And murder usurps His authority.

Well, now we have two different views on it. One that He wouldn't say it. Because He is creator. And one that says it would be fine for Him to say it. Because He is creator...

 

[grasping the after wind]

Do you know the things that people do when they are convinced that God has told them what to do and they don't question it? When they say that 'if God told me to murder then it would be just fine.'

What would you do if He told you to kill someone?

Unlike the mentally ill you are referring to , I am not about to believe that God is telling me to dis obey what He told me previously. If i hear voices telling me to kill someone I will assume there is a problem with me not that God is contradicting Himself.

Do you know the things people do when they are told by the government what to do and they don't question it? There are and always have been a whole lot more f those people around than one's that think God told them to kill someone.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Well, now we have two different views on it. One that He wouldn't say it. Because He is creator. And one that says it would be fine for Him to say it. Because He is creator...

So what does that do to your stereotype of? Additionally, we have been willing to tell you what we believe when questioned about it. Still waiting for a reply from the atheists here to my questions. Why so reticent to reciprocate? Very bad form to receive and refuse to give. Perhaps you all have nothing of substance to give in reply?

 

[Hammster]

Well, now we have two different views on it. One that He wouldn't say it. Because He is creator. And one that says it would be fine for Him to say it. Because He is creator...

I know. Mine is theologically consistent with a God who is immutable.

 

[perplexed]

I see no reason why hating American and not believing in objective morality are mutually exclusive attitudes.

??? So , that is not what I said.

 

[perplexed]

I’m always trying to get atheists to see that their views on good and evil have no grounding. I find this to be a good opportunity to do just that.

Exactly why is it important to get atheists to see that views on good and evil have no grounding?

 

[dzheremi]

I don't even understand the objection. Are you saying that 'the left' are proving that they have objective morality by hating America? I don't see how the two things are related.

And anyway, no one has objective morality. Claiming "God says it's wrong, so it's wrong" is just as subjective as claiming "I believe it is wrong, and so it's wrong." I believe that what my fellow Christians usually mean when they say that atheists lack objective morality is that, in comparison to those who believe in God, Whose thoughts and ways are not like ours (i.e., Who exists outside of mankind's shifting notions of morality, as the eternal "Just Judge"), atheists lack a belief in the concept of an eternal, unchanging standard of what is right and wrong. Whether or not you need to believe in God in order to have such a standard is above my paygrade to speculate on, but I could see how a religious person like your average western Christian (or even just a person raised in a western/post-Christian society) could come away with that impression, given a certain way of looking at history and human motivation absent some kind of rightly-feared corrective force or thing (which is what God is to a lot of religious people).

 

[Hammster]

Exactly why is it important to get atheists to see that views on good and evil have no grounding?

Because they need to acknowledge that God is real in order to see the need for salvation. I want to lead as many to Christ as possible.

 

[Bradskii]

Unlike the mentally ill you are referring to , I am not about to believe that God is telling me to dis obey what He told me previously. If i hear voices telling me to kill someone I will assume there is a problem with me not that God is contradicting Himself.

You do know that the bible tells us that He has actually told people to kill? You obviously do. So that argument makes no sense. And you have in any case literally said what I suggested you'd say: 'God wouldn't actually decide that'.

 

[Bradskii]

So what does that do to your stereotype of? Additionally, we have been willing to tell you what we believe when questioned about it. Still waiting for a reply from the atheists here to my questions. Why so reticent to reciprocate? Very bad form to receive and refuse to give. Perhaps you all have nothing of substance to give in reply?

Empathy and what Jesus reminded us of. The Golden Rule. I won't harm you unnecessarily because I wouldn't want to be harmed and I know that you don't as well, and I would empathise with your distress if you were harmed.

This is quite straightforward...

 

[Ken-1122]

I know that you believe it. Read my first post again

So why did you ask if I only believe murder to be wrong because the law says it is wrong?

 

[Ken-1122]

I say murder is wrong because the Creator of all that is, decided that it is wrong. What reason would an atheist give to explain to another atheist why murder is wrong? Obviously, the theist already has an answer that will suffice theists in all cases i.e. God says it's wrong and God has the authority to decide these matters by virtue of being the Creator and owner of all there is and being the wiser and superior being in this relationship.

So if God did not tell you that murder was wrong, you would think it is perfectly fine to kill indiscriminately? You can’t figure that out by yourself?

If you have to go to your God to receive instructions on whether or not murder is a good thing or not, you are not being moral; your God is! You are nothing but an immoral person who is good at following instructions. I’m better than that! And I hope you are too even if you don’t realize it right now; because nothing frightens me more than a theist who says his religion is the only thing preventing him from committing every atrocity imaginable; and that his religion is barely holding him back!

 

[Hammster]

So why did you ask if I only believe murder to be wrong because the law says it is wrong?

Because I was trying to make sure I understood your position. I didn’t want to make an improper assumption.

 

[Hammster]

So if God did not tell you that murder was wrong, you would think it is perfectly fine to kill indiscriminately? You can’t figure that out by yourself?

If you have to go to your God to receive instructions on whether or not murder is a good thing or not, you are not being moral; your God is! You are nothing but an immoral person who is good at following instructions. I’m better than that! And I hope you are too even if you don’t realize it right now; because nothing frightens me more than a theist who says his religion is the only thing preventing him from committing every atrocity imaginable; and that his religion is barely holding him back!

So why is murder intrinsically wrong?