How is it consistent to criticize the left for hating America AND not having an objective morality ?

[Ken-1122]

Because I was trying to make sure I understood your position. I didn’t want to make an improper assumption.

Do you understand my position now? Or is there anything you want me to clarify.

 

[perplexed]

Because they need to acknowledge that God is real in order to see the need for salvation

??? That is nothing like the reasons you gave before,
When you discussed objective morality in other threads you did not discuss the need for salvation

 

[perplexed]

I think I need to clarify my opening statement

If you make the statement "there is no objective morality" on this forum you will be attacked.
The attack is "if you don't agree there is objective morality you must be capricious".

The people that make this attack are clearly inconsistent, They clearly think America is being threatened by Atheists who hate America. I basically agree, clearly many people in the west hate America and most of them are Atheists, I think these people are wrong and I don't think these people capricious, nobody does

 

[Ken-1122]

So why is murder intrinsically wrong?

I don’t think murder is a very good example to make your point. Murder is a legal term, so when the laws of the land are unfair, the acts given the label murder may also be unfair. Example: 200 years ago, if a slave owner killed his slave, that was not murder; however if the slave defended himself from the attack and killed his master in the process, that IS considered murder. In order for murder to be intrinsically wrong, the slave could not kill his master in self defense, the Jew could not kill the Nazi during the Holocaust in self defense, but the Nazi could still kill the Jew, and the Master could still kill the slave in order for murder to be intrinsically wrong.

But let me explain how I see things so we don’t talk past each other.
First of all, I believe morality is strictly subjective not objective, because morality is the result of thought; not just human thought but any thinking being; even God. I know there is a theistic belief that says “My God created the Universe, so he gets to make up the morally objective rules!” but that’s not how objectivity works. That which is objectivity true can be demonstrated as true. IOW if God said I was 7 feet tall, God would be wrong, because my height can be demonstrated as being far from 7 feet tall. That which is objective can be demonstrated as true, morality cannot be demonstrated as true so all moral issues are strictly subjective.
So to answer your question; is murder intrinsically wrong? No; it’s subjectively wrong. Is it any less wrong because it doesn’t carry the intrinsic or even the objective label? No. Does this make sense to you? If not; tell me where I've gone wrong.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So if He decided that it was right then it would be. Then you'd say 'murder is right'.

Now I've a good idea what you might say next. Which is 'God wouldn't actually decide that'. Which means that you have personally decided that murder is wrong and you don't believe that God would say something that you think is so obviously wrong.

But if there's no "if," then your hypothetical is a mere red-herring and we can just shew it away like the so much dust on the coffee table.

 

[Bradskii]

But if there's no "if," then your hypothetical is a mere red-herring and we can just shew it away like the so much dust on the coffee table.

Then the bible is wrong when it tells us that He has told people to kill?

 

[Ken-1122]

But if there's no "if," then your hypothetical is a mere red-herring and we can just shew it away like the so much dust on the coffee table.

But there IS an"if" so address the man's point.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But there IS an"if" so address the man's point.

Nah. "If" the sun rises in the West tomorrow, then I'll consider addressing the man's "point."

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Then the bible is wrong when it tells us that He has told people to kill?

It's not my problem that you're equivocating here.

 

[Bradskii]

It's not my problem that you're equivocating here.

Bulldust. You said there was no 'if', implying that God would never order anyone to kill. But the bible says that He has. So what IF He does it again?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Bulldust. You said there was no 'if', implying that God would never order anyone to kill. But the bible says that He has. So what IF He does it again?

Oh, look everyone!!!
Bradskii's going to school us on the nature of generalities versus specifics.........and how they get too easily confused or conflated.

Everyone take a seat! He's about to begin our class.

 

[Bradskii]

Oh, look everyone!!!
Bradskii's going to school us on the nature of generalities versus specifics.........and how they get too easily confused or conflated.

Might be a good idea to cut the sarcasm and address the question. I'll repeat it:
As God has commanded men to kill in the past and what he decides is moral, then what does one do when He commands that again? That's about as specific as I can make it.

Bear in mind that questions are asked for two reasons. Firstly to find the answer. Secondly to see who is and who is not prepared to answer it. I find we learn more about the person being questioned from the second.

 

[Hammster]

Do you understand my position now? Or is there anything you want me to clarify.

Yes, I understand that you think murder is wrong just because.

 

[Hammster]

??? That is nothing like the reasons you gave before,
When you discussed objective morality in other threads you did not discuss the need for salvation

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

 

[Hammster]

So to answer your question; is murder intrinsically wrong? No; it’s subjectively wrong. Is it any less wrong because it doesn’t carry the intrinsic or even the objective label? No. Does this make sense to you? If not; tell me where I've gone wrong.

Why is it subjectively wrong?

 

[perplexed]

Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else.

I used the search feature to double check I was not confusing you with someone else

 

[Hammster]

I used the search feature to double check I was not confusing you with someone else

Okay.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Might be a good idea to cut the sarcasm and address the question. I'll repeat it:
As God has commanded men to kill in the past and what he decides is moral, then what does one do when He commands that again? That's about as specific as I can make it.

Bear in mind that questions are asked for two reasons. Firstly to find the answer. Secondly to see who is and who is not prepared to answer it. I find we learn more about the person being questioned from the second.

Correct your question and I'll consider doing so.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, I understand that you think murder is wrong just because.

Not quite. I say it's wrong because I can empathize with someone being murdered and I would hate for it to happen to anybody.

Why is it subjectively wrong?

Because my judgment that it is wrong is based on my personal feelings, interpretation, and extenuating circumstances concerning the event; instead of unbiased, demonstrable facts. "Subjective" vs. "Objective": What's The Difference?.

 

[Hammster]

Not quite. I say it's wrong because I can empathize with someone being murdered and I would hate for it to happen to anybody.

Because my judgment that it is wrong is based on my personal feelings, interpretation, and extenuating circumstances concerning the event; instead of unbiased, demonstrable facts. "Subjective" vs. "Objective": What's The Difference?.

Interesting. Hypothetically, you would find murder acceptable if you didn’t want to empathize with the victim. In other words, if you were angry at someone, you would be justified in murdering them because you don’t care about them.