How I came to embrace Preterism.

[Hello There]

It is one man's explanation how he came to embrace preterism and it is the most comprehensive explanation I've seen so far. It's a long read...but if you really want to understand preterism it's the best

wow, that article is very long. I think it'll have to wait until tommorrow seeing it is 11:50pm here.

Question: are you partial or full?

Partial preterists believe that MOST of prophecy has been fulfilled. The only thing that hasn't is the Second Coming and resurrection. But there are variations in interpretations in the partial camp.

When abouts is the tribulation? past. present or future?

I thought A Jewish temple is going to be rebuilt in Jerusalem. A real person empowered by Satan would march into that temple, blaspheme God, and declare himself to be a god, the Antichrist would become the scourge of the earth, He will attempt to exterminate the Jewish people?

I know preterist would have an explanation for everything, but weather they are solid or not is the question.

I am trying to stay open minded about this, but it seems very difficult to change from futurism straight to preterism, I'm pretty happy believing futurism at the moment.

 

[EchoPneuma]

wow, that article is very long. I think it'll have to wait until tommorrow seeing it is 11:50pm here.

Yeah, it's long. But well worth the read. It will literall answer all your questions.

Question: are you partial or full?

I am a full preterist. I believe all of prophecy as been fulfilled. It culminated in 70AD at the fall of Jersualem, burning and destruction of the temple, spiritual return of Jesus to establish His eternal kingdom and the ushering in of the everlasting covenant of grace.

When abouts is the tribulation? past. present or future?

When the tribulation was being written about....it was yet a future event to those Jews. They would see it soon though. The Roman Jewish war was 7 years long....from 66AD to 73AD. The temple was destroyed at exactly the 3 1/2 year mark. It was a time of great tribulation for the Jews and marked the end of their "heaven and earth". Their sacrificial system, to this day, has never been re-established. Even a Jewish rabbi will tell you that 70AD marked the end of OT Judaism and the OT Jewish nation as recorded in the bible.

But for us, it is in the past.

I thought A Jewish temple is going to be rebuilt in Jerusalem

It was. Under Herod the Great. It's the temple that was destroyed in 70AD. When that prophecy was give. It hadn't yet been built.

. A real person empowered by Satan would march into that temple, blaspheme God, and declare himself to be a god

Already happened. Titus, when he destroyed Jerusalem, marched right into the temple, set up the Roman ensigns and then his troops put up a sgn declaring him "divine" Titus. It was the "abomination that caused desolation" spoken of by the prophet Daniel.

, the Antichrist would become the scourge of the earth, He will attempt to exterminate the Jewish people?

The anti-Christ was apostate Israel. Who was more "anti-CHrist" than the Jews who rejected and crucified Jesus? Those apostate Jews did attack Christians and with the help of Rome persecuted them. Then Rome turned on the Jews and slaughterd them in 70AD. Millions died in Jerusalem alone.

I know preterist would have an explanation for everything, but weather they are solid or not is the question.

It's historical record. Read Josephus and Tacitus. That third link I gave you has an outline that shows all of this perfectly laid out in detail. Check it out.

I am trying to stay open minded about this, but it seems very difficult to change from futurism straight to preterism, I'm pretty happy believing futurism at the moment.

I hear ya brother. I'm a Southern Baptist....born and raised to be a dispensationalist futurist pre-millenialist. It was the hardest thing in the WORLD to let go of all of my beliefs and see that preterism was true. I tried for MONTHS to prove it false, so that I could go back to my futurist Baptist camp with a smile on my face. I wanted so badly for it to be wrong.

But the more I read, studied, researched etc....the more it made perfect sense and was biblically sound....and historically sound. For the first time....so many scriptures that were so confusing, make perfect sense.

Anyway, check out some of that stuff I showed you. It will explain everything.

blessings....

 

[gort]

The anti-Christ was apostate Israel. Who was more "anti-CHrist" than the Jews who rejected and crucified Jesus? Those apostate Jews did attack Christians and with the help of Rome persecuted them. Then Rome turned on the Jews and slaughterd them in 70AD. Millions died in Jerusalem alone.

Already happened. Titus, when he destroyed Jerusalem, marched right into the temple, set up the Roman ensigns and then his troops put up a sgn declaring him "divine" Titus. It was the "abomination that caused desolation" spoken of by the prophet Daniel.

Echopneuma,

You seem to contradict yourself here. The anti-christ is empowered by satan, and the a-c is the one who is in the temple proclaiming himself G-d.

How can apostate Israel stand in the temple and proclaim itself G-d?


Did apostate Israel also show wondrous things that fooled the world?

There are many Roman emporers that proclaimed themselves to have divinity, to be gods. Nothing unusual there.


I had also wanted to ask about a subject we had discussed earlier, regarding Paul speaking to those who would be caught up in his time.

John did not go. He later had 2 students named Polycarp and Ignatius.

Why did John not get caught up in the air?

Also, Clement of Rome in his letter to the Corinthians spoke of the future return of Jesus.

thanx

<><

 

[EchoPneuma]

Echopneuma,

You seem to contradict yourself here. The anti-christ is empowered by satan, and the a-c is the one who is in the temple proclaiming himself G-d.

How can apostate Israel stand in the temple and proclaim itself G-d?


Did apostate Israel also show wondrous things that fooled the world?

There are many Roman emporers that proclaimed themselves to have divinity, to be gods. Nothing unusual there.


I had also wanted to ask about a subject we had discussed earlier, regarding Paul speaking to those who would be caught up in his time.

John did not go. He later had 2 students named Polycarp and Ignatius.

Why did John not get caught up in the air?

Also, Clement of Rome in his letter to the Corinthians spoke of the future return of Jesus.

thanx

<><

Daneel
I must head to work now. I will try to get back to you from there. If not able, will revisit it again when I get home...

 

[EchoPneuma]

Echopneuma,

You seem to contradict yourself here. The anti-christ is empowered by satan, and the a-c is the one who is in the temple proclaiming himself G-d.

How can apostate Israel stand in the temple and proclaim itself G-d?

Well according to John there were MANY anti-Christs. Apostate Israel was the biggest one. THey crucified Jesus. Rome was another. They persecuted and butchered the Christians under Nero. Nero was another, he burned the CHristians as candles in his garden. Titus was another. He set up the abomination that caused desolation. Which 'anit-Christ" has to be determined by what it says he did. Please quote me the scripture that says the anti-Christ is the one who goes into the temple and proclaims himself to be God. I just want to look at it in context. Thanks.

Did apostate Israel also show wondrous things that fooled the world?

What things do you mean?

There are many Roman emporers that proclaimed themselves to have divinity, to be gods. Nothing unusual there.

No, actually it was unusual. Nero was only the second emperor that ever declared himself divine. Augustus was only given that honor after death. Not one emperor had ever taken that honor for himself while alive.

I had also wanted to ask about a subject we had discussed earlier, regarding Paul speaking to those who would be caught up in his time.

John did not go. He later had 2 students named Polycarp and Ignatius.

Why did John not get caught up in the air?

What makes you think he didn't? What do you think "caught up in the air" means? Have you looked at what it says in the original Greek? The word "up" isn't even there. "Air" isn't the word for sky. It's the same word in Ephesians in the scripture "Satan is the prince of the power of the air". It's the Greek word "aer", the Greek word of sky is "ouranos". So "air" means a spiritual realm, that is unseen.

I see no indication in this scripture that anyone had to go flying off into the sky. I see that they were caught away from Satan's kingdom of death into the spiritual realm of the kingdom of Jesus.(and so shall they ever be with the Lord) It took place in an instant. The same way that when someone gets saved today. they are instantaneously snatched from the spiritual darkness into the spiritual kingdom of Jesus. It's an invisible spiritual event, but it is nevertheless real. God says those things that are invisible and spiritual are more real than those things tangible.

Also, Clement of Rome in his letter to the Corinthians spoke of the future return of Jesus.

Yes, and so? Obviously Clement was a futurist and held to that interpretation of the bible. Doesn't make him right. He wasn't an apostle or inspired. ALL the apostles believed and taught that Jesus was coming back in THEIR day. I don't believe they were mistaken.

thanx

<><

You're welcome

 

[gort]

Well according to John there were MANY anti-Christs. Apostate Israel was the biggest one. THey crucified Jesus. Rome was another. They persecuted and butchered the Christians under Nero. Nero was another, he burned the CHristians as candles in his garden. Titus was another. He set up the abomination that caused desolation. Which 'anit-Christ" has to be determined by what it says he did. Please quote me the scripture that says the anti-Christ is the one who goes into the temple and proclaims himself to be God. I just want to look at it in context. Thanks.

Technically, anyone who against Christ Jesus is the anti-christ, and there were many during the days of Jesus.

But in the end times, there will be one person known as THE anti-christ/beast. There will also be the dragon and the false prophet. You might call them satans version of the unholy trio....

What things do you mean?

Scripture forthcoming.....

No, actually it was unusual. Nero was only the second emperor that ever declared himself divine. Augustus was only given that honor after death. Not one emperor had ever taken that honor for himself while alive.

Caligula was one who proclaimed hisself divine. There are others.

What makes you think he didn't? What do you think "caught up in the air" means? Have you looked at what it says in the original Greek? The word "up" isn't even there. "Air" isn't the word for sky. It's the same word in Ephesians in the scripture "Satan is the prince of the power of the air". It's the Greek word "aer", the Greek word of sky is "ouranos". So "air" means a spiritual realm, that is unseen.

'Caught up in the air' is in regards to being changed in the twinkling of an eye. The entire church is brought up in the air at the visible return of Jesus, the 2nd coming. The one where 'All eyes shall see Jesus coming in the clouds'. Not an invisible return.

I see no indication in this scripture that anyone had to go flying off into the sky. I see that they were caught away from Satan's kingdom of death into the spiritual realm of the kingdom of Jesus.(and so shall they ever be with the Lord) It took place in an instant. The same way that when someone gets saved today. they are instantaneously snatched from the spiritual darkness into the spiritual kingdom of Jesus. It's an invisible spiritual event, but it is nevertheless real. God says those things that are invisible and spiritual are more real than those things tangible.

When Jesus ascended up into the clouds, and while some disciples witnessed it, there were 2 standing in area and made mention that that is how Jesus will return.

The rest of your quote I would liken it to the giving of the Holy Spirit to believers since the day of Pentecost, and not a return of Jesus in the physical. That's why I asked you the other day if you were a trinitarian. The HS tells of Jesus, as the HS is God, and Jesus is God, therefore we do have Jesus indwelling us through the HS.

Yes, and so? Obviously Clement was a futurist and held to that interpretation of the bible. Doesn't make him right. He wasn't an apostle or inspired. ALL the apostles believed and taught that Jesus was coming back in THEIR day. I don't believe they were mistaken.

It does'nt really make a difference if Clement was a futurist or not. He was still a 1st century christian who wrote to a church, that Paul had also written to, telling them to long for the return of Jesus.

The important thing is he would have known of the return of Jesus had it been actual. After reading some of Clements writings, I find he is truly inspired of the Holy Ghost.



<><

addendum: Caligula had (in 40 a.d.) a statue of himself put in the jewish temple for the jews to worship him as deity.

 

[EchoPneuma]

Technically, anyone who against Christ Jesus is the anti-christ, and there were many during the days of Jesus.

Indeed, there were many, just as John states.

But in the end times, there will be one person known as THE anti-christ. There will also be the beast and the false prophet. You might call them satans version of the unholy trio....

That is a futurist interpretation of Revelation. Peter says in the book of Acts that the day of Pentecost began "the last days". John says that he was living in the "last days". Those "last days" were the "last days" of the old covenant age of the law. I really don't think the "last days" would have lasted 2000 years. It ended in 70AD. Show me a scripture that says "THE antichrist" so I can look at it in context. Thanks.

The beast was Nero. Neron Ceasar in Hebrew equals to 666.

Caligulus was one who proclaimed hisself divine. There are others.

I stand corrected. Besides Nero, Caligula is the ONLY other emperor to declare HIMSELF divine. But upon his death in 41AD, he was summarily stripped of his title. But when John wrote Revelation and the epistles were being written in the 50's and 60's....the only emperor to declare HIMSELF divine...was Nero.

'Caught up in the air' is in regards to being changed in the twinkling of an eye.

Once again, there is no "up" in the greek. And I already said that the change was instantaneous, spiritual and INVISIBLE. Just like our salvation is today.

The entire church is brought up in the air at the visible return of Jesus, the 2nd coming.

No, the entire church WAS caught AWAY (not up) into the spiritual kingdom of Jesus and taken out of the kingdom of darkness. This DID happen at the return of Jesus in 70AD. It was a spiritual return .

The one where 'All eyes shall see Jesus coming in the clouds'. Not an invisible return.

Scripture please? I want to see it in context. In reference to "on the clouds". Look and see how the Jewish prophets used the imagery of "clouds" to talk about God "coming" in judgement of a nation. Yet God NEVER showed up physically riding on the cloud. It's just the way the Jews talked.

When Jesus ascended up into the clouds, and while some disciples witnessed it, there were 2 standing in area and made mention that that is how Jesus will return.

Yes, they said the same Jesus would return "in like manner". So how was he taken? Well, only a few saw him go....not the whole world. So apparently only a few will see him come back. A "cloud" HID HIM FROM THEIR SIGHT. So apparently when he returned it couldn't be seen with the physical eyes. Jesus even tells the disciples in John 14:19
Before long, the world will not see me ANYMORE, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

How could the world never see Jesus again, and yet the disciples see him? Jesus doesn't say the world won't see him for a while, or for 2000 years. He says "will not see me ANYMORE". So this refutes the physical bodily return of Jesus and substantiates the invisible spiritual return that only His children could "see"....as in "see" with their spiritual eyes.

Look what Paul says:

Ephesians 1:18
I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints...

THose are the "eyes" that saw the return of Jesus in 70AD. THe same "eyes" that see Him here ruling and reigning in His kingdom at this very moment.

The rest of your quote I would liken it to the giving of the Holy Spirit to believers since the day of Pentecost, and not a return of Jesus in the physical.

Nope, it's not the same. The Holy Spirit was given to that generation of Jews and Gentile converts who waited for 40 years until Jesus returned in 70. THey needed a comforter, teacher, encourager and protector until Jesus returned. Then when Jesus returned in 70 to establish the new covenant and usher in the kingdom....now we have Father, Son and Holy Spirit abiding within us and tabernacling with us. "And so shall we ever be with the Lord"

That's why I asked you the other day if you were a trinitarian. The HS tells of Jesus, as the HS is God, and Jesus is God, therefore we do have Jesus indwelling us through the HS.

I am a trinitarian. Yes, I know what the ministry of the Holy Spirit was. It was to help those first century Jews and Gentile converts to keep the faith until they "saw" the coming of the Lord. He (the Holy Spirit) reminded them of everything Jesus said and helped them keep their focus on Him until He returned. Now we have the entire Godhead/Trinity indwelling us.

It does'nt really make a difference if Clement was a futurist or not. He was still a 1st century christian who wrote to a church, that Paul had also written to, telling them to long for the return of Jesus.

The important thing is he would have known of the return of Jesus had it been actual

Not necessarily. He didn't see it. He wasn't a part of that generation of Jews and Gentiles that Jesus made the promises to. Read Josephus and see what those people witnessed as far as "signs and wonders" and great visions in the sky.If he was looking for an account of a literal physical return of Jesus he could have missed it just as easily as we do today.

. After reading some of Clements writings, I find he is truly inspired of the Holy Ghost.

Be careful. That's a slippery slope. If we start saying that just because we like what this historian or that early church father had to say, that they were "inspired by the Holy Ghost"....the bible becomes meaningless as the authentic inspired infallible word of God.

"All SCRIPTURE is God breathed".....

 

[gort]

Quote daneel

But in the end times, there will be one person known as THE anti-christ. There will also be the beast and the false prophet. You might call them satans version of the unholy trio....

That is a futurist interpretation of Revelation. Peter says in the book of Acts that the day of Pentecost began "the last days". John says that he was living in the "last days". Those "last days" were the "last days" of the old covenant age of the law. I really don't think the "last days" would have lasted 2000 years. It ended in 70AD. Show me a scripture that says "THE antichrist" so I can look at it in context. Thanks.

If I remember, Jesus spoke in His day as being the 'last days'.

I also edited my quote above to correct my error. It is the beast who will show lying wonders to deceive even the elect, if that were possible. He is the one who will be in the temple proclaiming himself G-d.

I stand corrected. Besides Nero, Caligula is the ONLY other emperor to declare HIMSELF divine. But upon his death in 41AD, he was summarily stripped of his title. But when John wrote Revelation and the epistles were being written in the 50's and 60's....the only emperor to declare HIMSELF divine...was Nero.

I'm sorry, but there were many emporers who claimed themselves gods. I'll look for more when time permits.

Once again, there is no "up" in the greek. And I already said that the change was instantaneous, spiritual and INVISIBLE. Just like our salvation is today.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

'shall be caught up'


harpazo {har-pad'-zo} Strongs#726
1) to seize, carry off by force

2) to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly

3) to snatch out or away


Notice we are caught up to meet Jesus in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

No, the entire church WAS caught AWAY (not up) into the spiritual kingdom of Jesus and taken out of the kingdom of darkness. This DID happen at the return of Jesus in 70AD. It was a spiritual return .

The Scripture says caught up in the air to meet Jesus and be ever with the Lord.

Do you have Scripture for a spiritual, invisible return?

Yes, they said the same Jesus would return "in like manner". So how was he taken? Well, only a few saw him go....not the whole world. So apparently only a few will see him come back. A "cloud" HID HIM FROM THEIR SIGHT. So apparently when he returned it couldn't be seen with the physical eyes. Jesus even tells the disciples in John 14:19
Before long, the world will not see me ANYMORE, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Sounds like a visible return to me. One which all eyes will see.

How could the world never see Jesus again, and yet the disciples see him? Jesus doesn't say the world won't see him for a while, or for 2000 years. He says "will not see me ANYMORE". So this refutes the physical bodily return of Jesus and substantiates the invisible spiritual return that only His children could "see"....as in "see" with their spiritual eyes.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Jesus even tells the disciples in John 14:19
Before long, the world will not see me ANYMORE, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

????

Ephesians 1:18
I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints...

THose are the "eyes" that saw the return of Jesus in 70AD. THe same "eyes" that see Him here ruling and reigning in His kingdom at this very moment.

The 'eyes of the heart' do refer to the spiritual eyes. Not the same as the physical eyes the disiples saw Him ascending with.

Nope, it's not the same. The Holy Spirit was given to that generation of Jews and Gentile converts who waited for 40 years until Jesus returned in 70. THey needed a comforter, teacher, encourager and protector until Jesus returned. Then when Jesus returned in 70 to establish the new covenant and usher in the kingdom....now we have Father, Son and Holy Spirit abiding within us and tabernacling with us. "And so shall we ever be with the Lord"

That would be the preterist view.....

Not necessarily. He didn't see it. He wasn't a part of that generation of Jews and Gentiles that Jesus made the promises to. Read Josephus and see what those people witnessed as far as "signs and wonders" and great visions in the sky.If he was looking for an account of a literal physical return of Jesus he could have missed it just as easily as we do today.

Perhaps you've missed my point.

If, as you say, it was an invisible spiritual return, then Clement, Polycarp and Ignatuis, the latter 2 being students of John, would have been specifically told from John that it was an invisible spiritual return. This would be reflected in their writing, telling the christian community that what had happened had come true.

But Clement wrote otherwise. I'll provide the writing possibly this evening, if time permits. I've a meeting to go to.

Be careful. That's a slippery slope. If we start saying that just because we like what this historian or that early church father had to say, that they were "inspired by the Holy Ghost"....the bible becomes meaningless as the authentic inspired infallible word of God.

"All SCRIPTURE is God breathed".....

The Holy Spirit witnesses to me that Clement was inspired to write. "Inspired' to me means 'under the power of the Holy Spirit' to do such. To write, to tell, etc. It is in the poetic.

There is nothing in what Clement wrote to this church that negates Scripture in any way. I find much similarity in the letters from the NT.



<><

 

[gort]

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Ahhh......there's that elusive Scripture I was lookin for.....



<><

 

[bgamall]

Well, I am a partial preterist. I believe that most everything has been fulfilled, ie Jesus walked on the Mt of Olives and brought division, to fulfill the prophesy. See Luke 12:51 and Luke 21:37. However it is clear to me that the Lord has not come. There is one second coming and the world will disintegrate. It is false to be teaching that the Lord has not returned.

 

[stauron]

Ahhh......there's that elusive Scripture I was lookin for.....



<><

Ok, great point tying together Matt and Rev. John clearly expressed the timing by surrounding the verse with every possible clue.

Context requires that the "every eye" be very soon, near, the same ones that pierced Him and within John's own life time (the one who shared with them the kingdom and persecution).

So, even if, for arguments sake, we take a late date for Rev. the events had to have happened in our past. Hundreds and hundreds of years in the past.

This neatly confirms the time frame from Matt about the same event, "24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must happen very soon. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John, 1:2 who then testified to everything that he saw concerning the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ. 1:3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy aloud, and blessed are those who hear and obey the things written in it, because the time is near!

1:4 From John, to the seven churches that are in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from “he who is,” and who was, and who is still to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 1:5 and from Jesus Christ—the faithful witness, the firstborn from among the dead, the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the one who loves us and has set us free from our sins at the cost of his own blood 1:6 and has appointed us as a kingdom, as priests serving his God and Father—to him be the glory and the power for ever and ever! Amen.

1:7 (Look! He is returning with the clouds,

and every eye will see him,

even those who pierced him,

and all the tribes on the earth will mourn because of him.

This will certainly come to pass! Amen.)

1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God—the one who is, and who was, and who is still to come—the All-Powerful! 1:9 I, John, your brother and the one who shares with you in the persecution, kingdom, and endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony about Jesus

 

[bgamall]

I realize these are difficult scriptures, but it is false to believe that the Apostles did not clarify these revelations. Of course Peter said a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and that there were scoffers in the last days. No one was scoffing by 70 AD! And you guys are reverse scoffers, in effect denying Peter's statement that the elements of the earth and everything in the earth will melt with a fervent heat upon Christ's return.

 

[EchoPneuma]

I realize these are difficult scriptures, but it is false to believe that the Apostles did not clarify these revelations. Of course Peter said a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and that there were scoffers in the last days. No one was scoffing by 70 AD! And you guys are reverse scoffers, in effect denying Peter's statement that the elements of the earth and everything in the earth will melt with a fervent heat upon Christ's return.

Please don't turn this into anything personal. We are not scoffers. We are telling what we believe the bible teaches.

"Heaven and earth" refers to the Jewish "heaven and earth"...which was the temple (their heaven) and the nation of Israel (their earth). Look how the terms "heaven and earth" as used by the Jewish prophets in the OT. Peter and Jesus used it in exactly the same way. It doesn't mean the literal terra firma and the sky.

The word for elements in greek means the rudimentary elements of the Jewish law. Which were about to melt with the fervent heat of God's wrath upon the apostate nation of Israel. And their land and house was going to be left to them "desolate".....their "Heaven and earth" laid bare. It happened in 70AD.

 

[gort]

Well, I am a partial preterist. I believe that most everything has been fulfilled, ie Jesus walked on the Mt of Olives and brought division, to fulfill the prophesy. See Luke 12:51 and Luke 21:37. However it is clear to me that the Lord has not come. There is one second coming and the world will disintegrate. It is false to be teaching that the Lord has not returned.

When the Lord does come in person, He comes to bring finality to the will of the Father. All things to be rendered and accounted for. The lake of fire will contain the dragon, beast and false prophet and all, if any, that have rejected God's Grace.

The kingdom of heaven has none of the above in it.

Yet today, we are surrounded by the world and that which is in it. satan is still on the loose, corruption abounds and we still have a wee bit of a nature to turn from the Light and sin.

THe Lord has not yet returned, nor is it false to teach so.

and welcome to CF unorthodox theology, aka 'Funland'

<><

 

[unbound]

"Heaven and earth" refers to the Jewish "heaven and earth"...which was the temple (their heaven) and the nation of Israel (their earth). Look how the terms "heaven and earth" as used by the Jewish prophets in the OT. Peter and Jesus used it in exactly the same way. It doesn't mean the literal terra firma and the sky.

I strongly disagree, as most of the accounts about God and Christ usually have absolutes, and they point to destruction of the elements, heaven and earth.

 

[stauron]

I realize these are difficult scriptures, but it is false to believe that the Apostles did not clarify these revelations. Of course Peter said a day is like a thousand years to the Lord, and that there were scoffers in the last days. No one was scoffing by 70 AD! And you guys are reverse scoffers, in effect denying Peter's statement that the elements of the earth and everything in the earth will melt with a fervent heat upon Christ's return.

So God created the earth in 6000 years?

Methuselah lived for less than one day?

Christ was in the tomb for 3000 years?

The millenium only lasted one day?

Hmm, I think that maybe you are misusing the verse in Peter. I don't think that it was license to make time mean whatever we want.

There are many well respected commentators that exegete the elements in Peter's statement to mean the Old Covenent and it's corrupt system of worship. John Owen is one among them (http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/russ-ap2o.html).

If you would like some serious discussion please bring some scripture to the table to prove your point or use exegesis on the passages we use to show us how we are wrong.

As a start, christians were being scoffed at and tortured and bad mouthed many years before the fall of Jerusalem. Acts is a very poignaint record of the abuse the Jews had for the followers of "the Way". I don't think you can find a better example of it then when Paul was chased, city by city, by those hard hearted, stiff-necked rebels that scripture calls white washed sepulchres, blind guides of the blind, harlots, children of the devil, goats, the synagogue of satan, and many, many other epithets.

 

[gort]

Stauron quotes:

Context requires that the "every eye" be very soon, near, the same ones that pierced Him and within John's own life time (the one who shared with them the kingdom and persecution).

Rev 1:7 Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.

I think Echopneuma stated earlier in this thread that the preterist view was an invisible return, seen with the eyes of the heart.

I would have to reconcile also that the 'ones who pierced him' would have also needed to have seen this through the eyes of the heart; to be reborn, and the Scriptures don't tell us that.

As the Return also brings about the closing story of God's redemption for man, with all things coming to finality through the Son, the words 'every eye', and 'all kindreds of the earth' mean much more than just for those who are reborn through the Blood of Christ Jesus.

You'll notice 'all kindreds of the earth will wail' bears this out. As to how all eyes will see, I cannot say, but would venture forth and say by 'supernatural visions' ALL will see.

Mat 24:30 And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.

Notice also that all the tribes of the earth shall mourn. A reborn heart needs not mourn, but rejoices!!!

The unregenerate heart shall surely wail and mourn!

This neatly confirms the time frame from Matt about the same event, "24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

This would be the generation that will see this happen. Jesus, speaking as a futurist (as it had not yet happened ) .

As a futurist, these verses line up nicely. And simple too....



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[Hello There]

Notice also that all the tribes of the earth shall mourn. A reborn heart needs not mourn, but rejoices!!!

Now here we go....
all of a sudden ALL actually means ALL.
but whenever I try to show universalistic scriptures it all of a sudden doesn't mean ALL, ugh so frustrating.
I'm taking a shot at you Daneel, it's just a regular response I recieve

The beast was Nero. Neron Ceasar in Hebrew equals to 666.

lol, Bill Gates could be the Anti-Christ[/quote]www.whatshotin.com/Features/features88gates.shtml
There are so many interpretations of that number.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast_(numerology)
but yes, I get what your saying

 

[gort]

[/size][/font]
Now here we go....
all of a sudden ALL actually means ALL.
but whenever I try to show universalistic scriptures it all of a sudden doesn't mean ALL, ugh so frustrating.
I'm taking a shot at you Daneel, it's just a regular response I recieve


lol, Bill Gates could be the Anti-Christ

www.whatshotin.com/Features/features88gates.shtml
There are so many interpretations of that number.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_Beast_(numerology)
but yes, I get what your saying


[/QUOTE]

Fire away!

In context here, all would be all. As in "His will be done on earth, as it is in heaven."

Always look at Scripture not only in context of the chapter and surrounding verses, but in context of the entirety of the bible.

From God's perception, and not ours, it is the entirety of human existence that "All eyes" will see the Son. Not just those who live in that area.

Ronald Reagan was also determined to be the beast as I remember. I also heard they were given a street addy that was 666 also. They had it changed.



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[EchoPneuma]

Always look at Scripture not only in context of the chapter and surrounding verses, but in context of the entirety of the bible.

OK, then. Look at Luke 21 IN CONTEXT.



Luke 21

Signs of the End of the Age

5Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6"As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down." This is a specific prophecy from Jesus concerning the temple they were standing there looking at and commenting on. Herod's temple.

7"Teacher," they asked, "when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?" Ok, so the disciples ask Him a SPECIFIC QUESTION about the prophecy He just gave. "Tell us the signs that we will know the temple is about to be thrown down and destroyed. When will it happen?"

8He replied:(and now Jesus begins His reply to their specific question about what are the signs that the temple is about to be destroyed) "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and, 'The time is near.'(for the destruction of the temple) Do not follow them. 9When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away." The end of what? The end of the temple. That's the question He is answering. IN CONTEXT.

10Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven. He was correct. Josephus relates these things happening before the destruction of the temple

12"But before all this,(before what? Before those things He just listed in verse 11) they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13This will result in your being witnesses to them.(This also happened to them. Read about it in Acts) 14But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death.(True, they did martyr some of them) 17All men will hate you because of me. 18But not a hair of your head will perish.(True, none of them perished. They were saved. John 3:16) 19By standing firm you will gain life.

20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.(They saw this happening during the Roman Jewish Wars. Titus surrounded the city and built seige ramps against it)21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.(They did. History records that they fled to the City of Pella, east of the Jordan River.) 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.(Remember, Jesus is still answering their specific question concerning the temple being destroyed and how they will know it's about to happen. Then He says that it's the time of punishment in FULFILLMENT OF ALL THAT'S BEEN WRITTEN". ALL not most, or some....but ALL.) 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!(Yeah, it was. Josephus recounts women having to eat their afterbirth and their babies in order to survive the famine. It was horrible.) There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations.(It happened. The Romans destroyed the Jewish temple and nation and dispersed them worldwide to all countries) Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. The "time of the Gentiles" was over when God's wrath was completely poured out on Apostate Israel and the New Covenant was established. Now there is neither Jew NOR GENTILE in the Kingdom.

25"There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken.(Notice there is no break here. Jesus just continues answering the question the disciples asked about the temple. He's describing the destruction of the Jewish nation in Jewish prophetic hyperbole and imagery the same way the OT prophets did) 27At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.(See? Jesus links it all together. He says "AT THAT TIME"....what time? The time when you see these things happening. What things? The things He describes in the preceeding verses. The city being surrounded. People fleeing to the mountains, the temple being destroyed, people being in anguish etc) 28When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."



29He told them this parable: "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. He is STILL answering their question. No breaks in his answer. No indictation that He's switching from talking to them and answering their question, to talking about some far off distant generation of people. Read it IN CONTEXT.



32"I tell you the truth, THIS generation will certainly not pass away until ALL these things have happened. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.



Notice He didn't say "that generation" or "some generation"....but "THIS generation". What generation? Well, IN CONTEXT....the generation that would see the signs He just recounted. The generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. The generation of 70AD. And He said THAT generation (of 70AD) would not pass away until ALL these things had happened. INCLUDING THE SECOND COMING. In context of His answer to the disciple's question. 34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on YOU unexpectedly like a trap.(Notice He didn't say "them"....but "you". Speaking to the disciples who had asked Him the question.) 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth(And it did. To the Jews their heaven and earth were gone. Plus the Roman Empire was the known world of that day)36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." Notice He says "about to happen".....not going to happen sometime thousands of years in the future. He's still answering their question. IN CONTEXT.

Now, show me in that passage where Jesus changes contexts and starts talking about something else or some future generation, besides the specific question the disciples asked Him in verse 7 about His prophecy concerning the temple?

From God's perception, and not ours, it is the entirety of human existence that "All eyes" will see the Son. Not just those who live in that area.

All eyes did see Him. All enlightened spiritual eyes. SOME fleshly eyes did too. Those who pierced Him. (The Romans and Apostate Jews)