How I came to embrace Preterism.

[Autumn]

Originally posted by parousia70


So what you are saying is that a future to us 2nd coming of Christ will, by necessity, be "spiritual" in nature?

What I am saying is that it will probably be both.

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Autumn
How then is it that people still die today? Whether the "Death" cast into the lake of fire was physical death, or the second death. You cannot maintain that Christ destroyed physical death, because people still die today; and you cannot maintain that He destroyed the Second Death (i.e. spiritual death), as you believe that saved and unsaved people walk the Earth. And if unsaved people still walk the Earth, then the second death must still exist to punish those who do not believe. Please explain.

G'day Autumn. Only futurists are saying physical death is being done away with -not preterists. It is the Lake of Fire that IS the "second death" i.e., eternal separation from God -the very same way we came into the world, hence needing Christ's salvation. Christ's Coming didn't destroy the "second death" -the Lake of Fire IS the second death.

The number "1000" like other images and numbers in The Revelation carries symbolic significance -1000=10x3power or 10 cubed -a picture of divine completeness, like the cubed city of Rev 21 -a picture of the perfected Church. It is not talking about a literal linear time span.

davo

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Autumn
A question has just occured to me.

-If Christ's second coming took place at the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

-And his comming marks the 1000 year, post Satan's binding reign (which would have ended in the year 1070 A.D.)

His coming in 70 marked the end of the 1000 year reign.
(2 Peter 3), not the beginning.

Originally posted by Autumn
How then is it that people still die today? Whether the "Death" cast into the lake of fire was physical death, or the second death. You cannot maintain that Christ destroyed physical death, because people still die today; and you cannot maintain that He destroyed the Second Death (i.e. spiritual death), as you believe that saved and unsaved people walk the Earth. And if unsaved people still walk the Earth, then the second death must still exist to punish those who do not believe. Please explain.

well, the Bible teaches that physical death continues on into the New Heavens and New earth (Isaiah 65:17-20), and since the New H&E is the final state that is prophesied about, we can be confident that just because physical death still exists there, it dosen't mean Christ isn't victorious over it.

As for punishment goes, are you an annhilationist? do you believe Satan, the false prophet, all the unsaved, etc.. will be extinguished, or do they suffer eternal, conscious punishment?

I'll need to know which side of that you come down on before I can answer your question.

PS..I added some thoughts to my previous post that you replied to, after you replied to it....perhaps you could re-visit it and give me your thoughts...
Thanks Autumn,
P70

 

[ArtistEd]

Hi all,

I have a couple of questions maybe you can answer for me.

Lightning travels at approx 93,000 miles per second. To give some perspective to this, the initial velocity of a high powered rifle is about 1 mile per second. It really begs a couple of questions

A: If your eye can't see a bullet traveling at 1 mile per second, what do you expect to see traveling at 93,000 times that speed?
B: Just what kind of body can travel at that speed and not disintegrate?

Ed

 

[parousia70]

Great stuff Ed!

Originally posted by ArtistEd
Hi all,

I have a couple of questions maybe you can answer for me.

Lightning travels at approx 93,000 miles per second. To give some perspective to this, the initial velocity of a high powered rifle is about 1 mile per second. It really begs a couple of questions

A: If your eye can't see a bullet traveling at 1 mile per second, what do you expect to see traveling at 93,000 times that speed?

Uhhhh, nothing

Originally posted by ArtistEd
B: Just what kind of body can travel at that speed and not disintegrate?

Uhhh...A "spiritual" body

 

[Mandy]

A glorified body like Jesus', that is physical and able to appear in a locked room.

 

[davo]

New Testament reality: We are the Body of Christ -if you can believe the Scriptures [I do]

davo

 

[Mandy]

Originally posted by davo
New Testament reality: We are the Body of Christ -if you can believe the Scriptures [I do]

davo

We are the body of Christ, which is very obviously spiritually.

 

[at_the_river]

G'day Davo! I've been lurking for awhile, but had to put in e-ink the fact that Jerusalem did make a difference and was very significant in its time. The saddest part about reading some of the posts here is that fact that many do not even know the very real repercussions of what they are praying about. The zeal of Zionist in the Middle East only adds fuel to an already hostile and dangerous situation. Our brothers and sisters in Palestine are being shot at, bombed and otherwise terrorized daily, while we banter back and for "how soon is soon." (Personally, I think its second coming envy...if it already happened, I missed out! )

I believe it was Ms. Bellum in another thread that feared a fulfilled view because it would cause trouble in an already divided church. Actually, fulfilled prophecy has been called the penicillin for the disease of hate in the middle east by one Scholar that has spent her life studying the effect of millennial views on the policies in the Middle East. Issac and Ishmael have been brought back together and restored to the father. It is the only lasting and true solution to the problems that are in the Middle East. Stability means a decrease in terrorism which shows up here and other western countries. Fringe groups which spin off from such nonsense lose their power to entice new members. Transmillennialism is the only view that is constructive in nature and looks to build a positive future.

Futurism is actually about no future at all. It is destructive and robs people of living for today and dreaming of tomorrow because they fear that it may be their last. At least the board of directors of Liberty University think so...they are pretty upset with their President and founder right now...why go to College when the world may end any moment? Not conducive to increasing enrollment.

Anyhow, its been fun reading!

-- Beth

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Mandy
We are the body of Christ, which is very obviously spiritually.

Which puts-paid to the nonsense of physicality -He returned on time -filled His Body with His Presence, which fortunately has a "physical" outworking in this His world in that we minister His grace to others.

Mind you, if one has the mentality that this world is a "hell-hole" and is any time soon to be consumed by some 'dirty devil,' then one is likely to bury one's head in the shifting sands of futurism and cry "get me out of here! [and hope that "soon" doesn't mean soon how you like it to mean soon ]

davo

 

[davo]

Originally posted by at_the_river
...the fact that Jerusalem did make a difference and was very significant in its time. The saddest part about reading some of the posts here is that fact that many do not even know the very real repercussions of what they are praying about.

Yes Beth it is sad -there was even one brother over in the "christians only" section [that I used to frequent before being ruptured out of there] that gleefully awaited some nuclear action there -and unfortunately me-thinks others under their collective breaths agreed.

"christians only"-kinda brings to mind the exclusivity of 1st century Judaism, whereas God's Gospel is inclusive.

Originally posted by at_the_river
Transmillennialism is the only view that is constructive in nature and looks to build a positive future.
Futurism is actually about no future at all. It is destructive and robs people of living for today and dreaming of tomorrow because they fear that it may be their last.

Certainly, for God has not called us to abdicate our role as world changers [where we are], we are to "plan" and "do" in reaching out and bringing people to the feast of salvation -it's no longer a Battle but a Banquet!

davo

 

[at_the_river]

Certainly, for God has not called us to abdicate our role as world changers [where we are], we are to "plan" and "do" in reaching out and bringing people to the feast of salvation -it's no longer a Battle but a Banquet!

We were watching "O Brother Where Art Thou" recently and it was quite plain why dreams of golden mansions over on hilltops would have been so appealing during the depression. As one poster pointed out, this whole rapture business did not become a serious doctrine until about 200 years ago. Pretty young as far as doctrines go. To people who had nothing to look forward to, it sure would sound good. But it had a different long term effect.

One thing that I haven't been able to understand is why would God needs Russia or any other country for that matter to destroy who ever else to convince Christ it's time to come here now? Couldn't Christ just do that himself with is army of angels and avoid the middle man?

I'm being light hearted above, but I'm serious when I ask "How would destroying any country now by any invading army be any different than what already happened to Jerusalem? What more can be done to destroy the power of the holy people than what has already been done? The Law is gone already! We have atonement now, so our salvation is assured. Get the party started!

--Beth

 

[Autumn]

Originally posted by davo



Mind you, if one has the mentality that this world is a "hell-hole" and is any time soon to be consumed by some 'dirty devil,' then one is likely to bury one's head in the shifting sands of futurism and cry "get me out of here! [and hope that "soon" doesn't mean soon how you like it to mean soon ]

davo

If Christ is living in us, then it is not our will that we are living, but His. After all that He endured, I do believe that we can fulfill our mission here on earth. It doesn't matter what we want, but what God wants.

 

[Autumn]

Originally posted by parousia70


So what you are saying is that a future to us 2nd coming of Christ will, by necessity, be "spiritual" in nature?

what about after he arrives?
Will He be confined to a throne in Jerusalem?
or will He be everywhere?
Like a Santa on every street corner?

Will we each have our own personal Jesus at our beck and call, or will we have to wait in line with the 2 billion other Christians, just to get a glimpse of Him "face to face"? That'd be a long line!

I think that time is not as we know it. That He will be with us all. I understand your points...although some really aren't that apparent or clear to me. I simply would like for you, or anyone that can, to fully and clearly explain to me why all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled. Give me examples. This is completely new to me, and if it is the truth, because I love the Lord with all of my heart, I think that He can use you to show me.

 

[Autumn]

Just one more question. Where are we today? Will we just be with Christ in heaven? How does all of this fit in the whole scope of things? Will the earth and living as we know it continue on and on?

 

[parousia70]

Originally posted by Autumn


I think that time is not as we know it. That He will be with us all. I understand your points...although some really aren't that apparent or clear to me. I simply would like for you, or anyone that can, to fully and clearly explain to me why all prophecy in the Bible has been fulfilled. Give me examples. This is completely new to me, and if it is the truth, because I love the Lord with all of my heart, I think that He can use you to show me.

What I was attempting to show from my "points" is that a return of a single 6ft, 150lb fleshy Jesus to sit on a throne in Jerusalem, just dosen't work, no matter how you slice it.
Whether you view it as past or future, the 2nd coming must be spiritual in nature.

Next let me quickly dispell this notion that preterists believe all prophesy has been fulfilled. Preterists believe all eschatology, ie:end times/last days prophesy, has been fulfilled, but preterists recognize that there are prophesies that continue to unfold and be fulfilled daily, on into the future, "world without end, Amen".

As for examples, I always like to start with Luke 21:20-22 when Showing someone why I subscribe to preterism:

20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Autumn, ask yourself what Jesus meant by that? What was Jesus telling the Apostles? He is speaking directly to them, telling them they would see this event. Notice He says "when you see Jerusalem surrounded", not "If you see" but "When you see" because Jesus knew they would see it. then He goes on to claim that at that time they saw it, all things written would be fulfilled.

The next question you should ask yourself is, What does "all things written" mean?

Jesus, later in Luke, Tells us:
Luke 24:44
Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

And for even more precident, we find written in Galatians:
Galatians 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

If that weren't enough, it is written in Acts:
Acts 24:14
But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets.

When you really compare scripture with scripture, you'll be hardpressed to "explain away" Jesus declaration in Luke 21, while maintaining any scriptural integrity. Jesus meant what He said, and I believe Him.

Originally posted by Autumn
Just one more question. Where are we today? Will we just be with Christ in heaven? How does all of this fit in the whole scope of things? Will the earth and living as we know it continue on and on?[/color]

Wee are living in the eternal new covenant age. When we shed our earthly tent, yes we "Just" get to go to heaven and be with Christ forever, for that is where our inheritance is.(1 Peter 1:4), the same inheritance promised to Abraham, and just like Abraham, we are pilgrims and strangers on the earth, and we seek the "better country" of Heaven. (Hebrews 11:13-16)

Lastly, Scripture testifies that the Kingdom, and the generations of man, and the earth itself are all to continue "forever" (Ps. 104:5; 145:13; Eccl. 1:4; Dan. 4:3,34; 7:14,18,27; Lk. 1:33; Eph. 3:21).

I must say I was impressed by your tone, God will show you, perhaps through us, what is right. Don't take our word for it, but search the scriptures to see if it is so.
None of us came to this view lightly, or overnight. In my case it took a few years of prayer and study before I accepted it as truth. Generally, all preterists used to be futurist, and we have asked the same questions you are asking, and have all found more than adaquate answers from the preterist perspective. While the lions share of preterists are ex futurists, you'll be hardpressed to find an ex preterist. I have yet to find one and have been looking for one for years.

God bless,
P70

 

[Kelier]

Originally posted by Manifestation1*AD70
How I came to embrace Preterism.


I would like to share with you how I came to embrace Preterism. You know how we are always hearing about the rapture and the end of the world coming on the television and radio programs. Well I was a futurist also and spent my time at night, listening to them preach on this subject over the radio.

One night while I was listening to them on the radio I fell into a deep sleep. While I was sleeping I started to feel as though I was on fire, and running a very high temperature, but yet I was still asleep.

Then I heard a voice from what I assumed to be the radio saying, "we are not living in the last days, Jesus has come."

As I begin to awake, I suddenly realized that I had also been crying in my sleep and found myself chanting over and over again "I love you Jesus." My pillow was soaking wet as though someone had saturated it with a bucket of water. All this happened between 1 and 2 AM.

The next night, I listened to the very same radio station but never heard anything like that again. From that point on it seemed like God had burned something deep within my soul forever. I would come home from work, spending hours studying. I even stayed in the house all weekend, closely examining the Bible. Studying the Bible almost become a obsession to me. It was like taking a drink of the clear water of life that proceeds from the throne of God and I could not stop drinking it.

I must admit that at first I really struggled, questioning if what I now saw in the Bible was really true. But as God promised, the more I looked for Him the more truth I found.

Many things fell into place like never before, and the Bible seemed to come alive. God opened my eyes to see who the New Testament letters were written to and why. I began, to understand the key to any passage of Scripture is a careful study into the language, culture, politics, and the historical setting in which it was originally written.

Rich nuggets of truth came forth from my daily studies in the book of Hebrews. As I studied, I learned that it takes the "cross, resurrection, and return of Christ" to complete our salvation. I learned to see things from God's perspective and not mans, that Death, to God, means to be separated from Him.

Spiritual Death is an enemy because it keeps people from God. God loved man and desired to be with him and be his God. This was not possible until Jesus Christ returned and removed the Old Covenant. God’s light and truth lead me to His holy hill and to His dwelling.

I could see more clearly than ever the face of God. God dwells in me like the Old Testament promised and I dwell in His glory because of the completed work of Christ. It is like the writer of Hebrews says we can now enter the Holiest by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:19).

I never pray anymore "dear Lord in heaven," for God now dwells-tabernacles within me. I am glad to call myself a preterist because if it were not for God opening my eyes, I would not be one today.

How do you know it wasn't the voice of satan? Satan appears as an angel of light. Futurists also believe that God dwells in us, but we also know that Jesus is going to redeem what His creation.

 

[davo]

Originally posted by Kelier
How do you know it wasn't the voice of satan? Satan appears as an angel of light. Futurists also believe that God dwells in us, but we also know that Jesus is going to redeem what His creation.

G'day Kelier I've got some really good news for you -Jesus has already completely defeated Satan, lock-stock-and-two-smokin'-barrels -that's if you can believe the scriptures -I do, guess that makes me a believer -what are you believing?

davo

 

[Autumn]

Parousia70,
I'll be looking into it, as I have been. Thanks for the info.

Autumn

 

[parousia70]

My pleasure Autumn