How hell can make sense...

[John Hyperspace]

Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches, not universal restoration, but that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/​

I don't care about your ability to mindlessly copy and paste in attempt to prove your own bias. I note you use the Talmud and the Mishnaic teachings of the people who rejected Christ as your authoritative argument. Why not stick to the actual scripture instead? Does the scripture not support you in any way?

 

[bcbsr]

Hell only makes sense to me if some kind of form or type of re-incarnation or recycling of souls or people is possible and a reality...

Reincarnation is incompatible with Biblical Christianity. "Everyone must die once" Heb 9:27

 

[Der Alte]

I don't care about your ability to mindlessly copy and paste in attempt to prove your own bias. I note you use the Talmud and the Mishnaic teachings of the people who rejected Christ as your authoritative argument. Why not stick to the actual scripture instead? Does the scripture not support you in any way?

Does the scripture support me in any way? Had you actually read my post you might have noticed that I quoted several verses of scripture.
While you may not care, Jesus did care what the Jews of His day taught. Several times in scripture Jesus said to the Jewish leaders "You have heard it said ...but I say to you..."
But when Jesus taught about the man's eternal fate He did not say that everyone would be saved no matter what and He also did not say the unrepentant would be destroyed. I quoted what Jesus did say in my previous post which you apparently did not read

 

[Der Alte]

Sure, it seems every man under the sun makes the same claim. My point was that I had presuppositions, and since I no loner believe them, I no longer have presuppositions. Do you? By chance were your parents baptists?

Actually not, I did not grow up in a church. I did not become a Christian until my mid 20s and that when Johnson was president, you can do the math, so no presuppositions to deal with.

Quoting one verse then addressing a Hebrew form is meaningless.

I don't have any idea what you are talking about here.

Paul specifically states that no one resists the will of God; the idea is through the entire scripture. Paul even acknowledges a question he supposes someone will have by his clear teaching that God "hardens whom He will, and has mercy on whom He will"; the question "Then why does He still find fault, if none resist His will?"

Anybody can prove almost anything they want to by quoting bits and pieces of scripture out-of-context. I think you have mixed about 3 verses here.

"Destroy" is a great deal away from "endless suffering": also, the scripture teaches that destruction need not be a "full end" and can lead to salvation. Indeed the very idea of salvation is,

passing away of the old man, and birth of the new. Creation out of destruction.

The word translated "destroy" in the NT is apolummi occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Apolummi is used to refer to spilled wine, broken wineskins, spoiled food, tarnished gold, lost sheep, lost son.

Most professing Christians won't see the kingdom during the age to come. Note there's nothing in this verse about endless suffering; just a barring from entering the kingdom.

So what happens to those who don't enter the kingdom? Remember that Jesus did say that one group of people would go away into "everlasting punishment."

But now we see not all things put under Him.

And your point is?

God will expose misunderstandings perpetrated by Christians teaching a corrupt image of God. Unbelievers only hate and rebel against the corrupt image of God perpetrated on

them by Christians teaching a corrupt image of God. When deception is removed, everyone will love and honor God, because He is good.

They do not bow the knee to Him today because they do not know Him, but only know a corrupt image of God perpetrated on them by Christianity's

misunderstandings, such as "eternal suffering" and misunderstandings as to why bad things happen.

This is all somewhat interesting but it is nothing but unsupported opinion none of it is supported by specific scriptures.

There's nothing in the verse that says that. To confess that Jesus is Lord can only be done by the Spirit: 1 Corinthians 12:3, and confession is made to salvation: Romans 10:10

So when God conquers all His enemies they will instantly love Him and call Him Lord?

The verse clearly says "all shall be made alive"

No it does NOT it very clearly says "all in Christ shall all be made alive.." And all men are not inherently "in Christ."

She was speaking the truth, as her words coinciding withe the apostles. Jesus is the Saviour of the world; whether you like it or not.

Doctrine cannot be built on the words of non-believers even if it happens to be correct. God is the God of the whole world so why isn't everybody "godly?"

The verse says Jesus is the Saviour of the world.

See above response.

It doesn't. It only contradicts people claiming Jesus isn't the Saviour of the world.

Jesus said "Not every one that says unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" and "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I notice you've not posted a single scripture stating anything about "endless suffering"; finding it difficult to find one?

See my post #39 above.

 

[masmpg]

Hell only makes sense to me if some kind of form or type of re-incarnation or recycling of souls or people is possible and a reality...
God Bless!

I have one quote which many overlook about what happens after death. This doctrine is one of the hardest to teach because of all the references to "eternal burning" and such, but in John 3:16 we read this: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." I have thought on this verse for long periods of time. The word PARISH means to cease to exist! NOT live forever burning in hell. Why would God promise eternal life to those who believe, and then promise eternal life to those who do not believe? There are plenty of verses to tell us what happens when we die. David and Solomon shed great light on this subject.

 

[mmksparbud]

I have one quote which many overlook about what happens after death. This doctrine is one of the hardest to teach because of all the references to "eternal burning" and such, but in John 3:16 we read this: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." I have thought on this verse for long periods of time. The word PARISH means to cease to exist! NOT live forever burning in hell. Why would God promise eternal life to those who believe, and then promise eternal life to those who do not believe? There are plenty of verses to tell us what happens when we die. David and Solomon shed great light on this subject.

You will get a wall of print stating how "perish" does not mean annihilation! Neither does death, r destruction---they come up with all sorts of different meanings--
Still, nobody says why God did not tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would burn in hell for ever and ever instead of telling them they would die.

 

[Der Alte]

You will get a wall of print stating how "perish" does not mean annihilation! Neither does death, r destruction---they come up with all sorts of different meanings--

This is a common cop-out when evidence contradicts someone's assumptions/presuppositions is is blown off as a "wall of text."

Still, nobody says why God did not tell Adam and Eve that if they ate of the tree they would burn in hell for ever and ever instead of telling them they would die.

Irrelevant, logical fallacy, argument from silence. God did tell Adam and Eve "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." But they did not literally, actually die the day they ate of the forbidden tree, Adam lived another 930 years.

 

[Der Alte]

I have one quote which many overlook about what happens after death. This doctrine is one of the hardest to teach because of all the references to "eternal burning" and such, but in John 3:16 we read this: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." I have thought on this verse for long periods of time. The word PARISH means to cease to exist! NOT live forever burning in hell. Why would God promise eternal life to those who believe, and then promise eternal life to those who do not believe? There are plenty of verses to tell us what happens when we die. David and Solomon shed great light on this subject.

The Greek word translated "perish" in the NT is Apollumi. It occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Here is a list of those meanings.
(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].
Daniel also tells what happens to the dead.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

They are dead in the dust. Some will awake to everlasting life, and some will awake to shame and everlasting contempt. It does not say they awake to shame and everlasting contempt then they die again.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is a common cop-out when evidence contradicts someone's assumptions/presuppositions is is blown off as a "wall of text."

Irrelevant, logical fallacy, argument from silence. God did tell Adam and Eve "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." But they did not literally, actually die the day they ate of the forbidden tree, Adam lived another 930 years.

Not in the least irrelevant---God told them if they ate of the tree they would die---not spent eternity in hell writhing in flames. What God says is, He doesn't deal in ambiguities. And you very well know that the day there means not evening morning but a length of time of undetermined duration. You've been shown that and you yourself have also put up a wall of text stating the same thing.
When God says something, that is it, His voice makes it happen. Just as in creation, He said let there be light, and there was light. Not, well, light on this day but not light on the 6th day, it was light--period, when He said the evening and the morning, that is what it was. and when He said, if you eat of the tree you will die---that is what would happen. If He had said, you will burn in hell forever, then that is what would happen, but He didn't---are you saying God deceived Adam and Eve, that He was less than honest?

 

[mmksparbud]

And everlasting does not always mean everlasting --- Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with everlasting fire--they are not still burning but they are certainly burned up and perished, destroyed--non-fi8nctional forever.

 

[Neogaia777]

I used to hold my hand under hot water as long as I was able and then think, "If this was hell, I wouldn't be able to pull my hand away."
Later I came to question what I call the "Sunday School Version" of hell. One thing that gave me some hope is that I realized that in the story of the rich man and Lazerus, the rich man is not screaming in agony, as one would if they were on fire burning, but he was uncomfortable and wanted relief and talked perfectly casually with Abraham about the possibility. That is one difference I saw between the Bible's teaching and the Sunday School Version of hell; because you are right. It is difficult enough to imagine a God of love torturing people forever who failed miserably, but when they were predestined for that? When he made them a "vessel for dishonor"? That is not to say God doesn't have a RIGHT to do as he pleases with us all, but it didn't seem to be in line with the nature and goodness of God.

He gave us a choice, but the Father already knows the outcome of every choice, even the Son's, who also had/has a choice, but one choice for the Son, to us it seems like we have a myriad of choices, and, maybe cause we don't know, we do (have many choices) but, the Father alone knew the outcome of all of everyone's choices from the very start to it's end... This is not to say that we all did not have a choice in the matter, cause we did and do... But, were not here to make the choice, but, understand "why" we made, and make the choices that we do/did... Which will only be fully known and completely revealed after this when we get to review our life here, like explained in this thread about "the soul"...

The Soul...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I only know, that I cannot wait for the day, when i will get to review the tapes of my soul, (link below) and I get to understand the how and why of everything, every single choice, that I have made in my life, and what exactly separated me from the rest, to arrive there, and how and why the others, will be continually recycled here, in a hell, for eternity...

The Soul...

God Bless!

 

[Der Alte]

And everlasting does not always mean everlasting --- Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with everlasting fire--they are not still burning but they are certainly burned up and perished, destroyed--non-fi8nctional forever.

The definition of a word is not determined by one example.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. ​

The word translated "example" means specimen, sample. When one gives a sample of their blood at a lab they do not give all their blood only a small sample. But even more important the word "aionios/eternal" does not modify "suffering" or "vengeance." Only the fire was eternal. The verse does not say "eternal suffering" or "eternal vengeance." But remember in Matthew 25:46 Jesus did say "eternal punishment."

 

[Der Alte]

Not in the least irrelevant---God told them if they ate of the tree they would die---not spent eternity in hell writhing in flames. What God says is, He doesn't deal in ambiguities.

You are misquoting the scripture.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ​

God did not say "if you eat of the tree you will die", He said "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

And you very well know that the day there means not evening morning but a length of time of undetermined duration. You've been shown that and you yourself have also put up a wall of text stating the same thing.

I "know" no such thing and I have never posted anything stating or implying that yom/day in Gen 2 means a length of time of undetermined duration. Here is the meaning of "yom" from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Note the Hebrew word yom translated day never means a length of time of undetermined duration.

Day (Hebrew, "yom"):
In the Bible, the season of light (Gen. i. 5), lasting "from dawn [lit. "the rising of the morning"] to the coming forth of the stars" (Neh. iv. 15, 17). The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time. The day is reckoned from evening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and the night following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar). "The day" denotes: (a) Day of the Lord; (b) the Day of Atonement; (c) the treatise of the Mishnah that contains the laws concerning the Day of Atonement (See Yoma and Sabbath).
DAY - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

[QUOTE} . . . and when He said, if you eat of the tree you will die---that is what would happen. If He had said, you will burn in hell forever, then that is what would happen, but He didn't---are you saying God deceived Adam and Eve, that He was less than honest?[/QUOTE]
As I have shown "yom" never means a length of time of undetermined duration. So you will need to come up with a credible argument why Adam and Eve did not literally, actually die in the day they ate of the forbidden tree. And while God did not say it to Adam and Eve, Jesus did teach that the unrepentant would go away into "eternal punishment."

 

[masmpg]

And everlasting does not always mean everlasting --- Sodom and Gomorrah were burned with everlasting fire--they are not still burning but they are certainly burned up and perished, destroyed--non-fi8nctional forever.

I agree. Did you see the wall of definitions, just like you said would happen?

 

[John Hyperspace]

Actually not, I did not grow up in a church. I did not become a Christian until my mid 20s and that when Johnson was president, you can do the math, so no presuppositions to deal with.

That doesn't mean you have no presuppositions; only that you didn't inherit any from parents.

I don't have any idea what you are talking about here.

Meaning, pointing at the use of one Hebrew word in one verse doesn't overturn everything else in scripture. Paul clearly expresses absolute soveriegnty at Romans 9:15-21 this being made clear at Romans 9:19 where he asks the anticipated question "Why does He find fault?" to his unmistakeably clear teaching "No one has resisted His will": absolute sovereignty is one of the clearest doctrines in scripture, even if the majority of Christian doctrine attempts to deny it.

The word translated "destroy" in the NT is apolummi occurs 90 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 76%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment. Apolummi is used to refer to spilled wine, broken wineskins, spoiled food, tarnished gold, lost sheep, lost son.

Here are a few passages with the word being employed:
Mt 10:6 But go rather to the lost <622> sheep of the house of Israel.
Mt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose <622> it: and he that loseth <622> his life for my sake shall find it.
Mt 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost <622>.

In none of these passages does "apolummi" mean destruction/loss and a full end. "Destruction" does not equal a full end of being. If it does, then why would Jesus be sending to the "lost sheep" of the house of Israel? Matthew 10:39 shows that having your life "destroyed/lost" for the sake of Christ causes your life to be "found": quite the opposite of "endless suffering"; and clearly showing that "destruction" doesn't support "endless suffering" but can and does support a "new birth/being found" through "loss/destruction" of the old man. The point being that passages employing the word "destroyed/lost" in no way support the doctrine of "endless suffering": in fact, you've not cited a single passage that supports the doctrine, as none exist in the bible at all.

I cited many passages clearly supporting universal reconciliation.

And your point is?

My point being that just because God is able to put all things under Christ, He has not yet chosen to do that. This was to refute you claim "God was able to make the entire house of Judah and Israel serve Him" as if that passage denies the proposition that God is sovereign.

So when God conquers all His enemies they will instantly love Him and call Him Lord?

We are taught that not all things are yet put under Him, and will not be done entirely until the end: 1 Corinthians 15:26-28 at which time all things in heaven and earth are subdued to Him i.e. universal reconciliation. And yes, everyone will love God, finally knowing Him for the first time after all false doctrine is removed from the mouths of men, who preach a corrupted image and understanding of God. Love conquers all, as the proverb goes.

No it does NOT it very clearly says "all in Christ shall all be made alive.." And all men are not inherently "in Christ."

It doesn't say "all in Christ shall all be made alive" it says "in Christ shall all be made alive" : all means all, and the order is given in the verses following which again use the phrase "every man": 1 Corinthians 15:22-24. Just as every man was made to die in Adam; every man will also be made to live in Christ. Further expressed: Romans 5:18. By one all men to condemnation; and by One all men to justification.

Doctrine cannot be built on the words of non-believers even if it happens to be correct. God is the God of the whole world so why isn't everybody "godly?"

Because it isn't time yet. But every man in his own order. Your question is like asking, "If God is the Gardener, why hasn't the entire crop sprang at once?" James 5:7

See above response.

Your response doesn't acknowledge that John says the same thing:

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Is Christ the Saviour of the world?

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Is Christ the Saviour of all men? Paul even says "specially of those that believe" to make clear that Jesus is also the Saviour of them that do not yet believe, that though "now we see not all things put under Him" we one day will see "all things put under Him" i.e. universal reconciliation. Every tongue in earth and in heaven will confess, and confession is made unto salvation, and no one calls Jesus Lord except by the Spirit so if all tongues are confessing then all making said confessing can only be doing so by the Spirit which is evidently working in them to cause every knee to bow, and, every tongue to confess, and all things be subdued and reconciled to Him

You still have not dealt with many of the verses cited in support of universal reconciliation, and have not produced one single verse in support of "endless suffering"

 

[mmksparbud]

בְּיוֹם

bê'yom
in~DAY
Genesis 2:17
in the day you eat from him you will surely die,

Genesis 1:5
evening existed and morning existed, day one,
יוֹם

yom
DAY
Now I remember, you're the on that only believes in his own dictionary. There are 2 different spellings and it is said in 2 different ways in the original Hebrew, whether you believe it or not.
Mechanical Translation

 

[mmksparbud]

I agree. Did you see the wall of definitions, just like you said would happen?

yup!!

 

[mmksparbud]

You are misquoting the scripture.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ​

God did not say "if you eat of the tree you will die", He said "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I "know" no such thing and I have never posted anything stating or implying that yom/day in Gen 2 means a length of time of undetermined duration. Here is the meaning of "yom" from the Jewish Encyclopedia. Note the Hebrew word yom translated day never means a length of time of undetermined duration.

Day (Hebrew, "yom"):
In the Bible, the season of light (Gen. i. 5), lasting "from dawn [lit. "the rising of the morning"] to the coming forth of the stars" (Neh. iv. 15, 17). The term "day" is used also to denote a period of twenty-four hours (Ex. xxi. 21). In Jewish communal life part of a day is at times reckoned as one day; e.g., the day of the funeral, even when the latter takes place late in the afternoon, is counted as the first of the seven days of mourning; a short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though of the first day only a few minutes remained after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day. Again, a man who hears of a vow made by his wife or his daughter, and desires to cancel the vow, must do so on the same day on which he hears of it, as otherwise the protest has no effect; even if the hearing takes place a little time before night, the annulment must be done within that little time. The day is reckoned from evening to evening—i.e., night and day—except in reference to sacrifices, where daytime and the night following constitute one day (Lev. vii. 15; see Calendar). "The day" denotes: (a) Day of the Lord; (b) the Day of Atonement; (c) the treatise of the Mishnah that contains the laws concerning the Day of Atonement (See Yoma and Sabbath).
DAY - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

[QUOTE} . . . and when He said, if you eat of the tree you will die---that is what would happen. If He had said, you will burn in hell forever, then that is what would happen, but He didn't---are you saying God deceived Adam and Eve, that He was less than honest?

As I have shown "yom" never means a length of time of undetermined duration. So you will need to come up with a credible argument why Adam and Eve did not literally, actually die in the day they ate of the forbidden tree. And while God did not say it to Adam and Eve, Jesus did teach that the unrepentant would go away into "eternal punishment."[/QUOTE]

I couldn't quote you in the above post as that would come up with too many characters because of the Hebrew characters.
I don't make up these Hebrew characters, it is from a Hebrew site. It doesn't matter to me that you refuse to acknowledge it. It is there, and it is real. Even the wording is different, evening and morning day one, in the day----different words, and the meaning is different. in the day, in the era, or in the time (unspecified)--

The definition of a word is not determined by one example.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. ​

The word translated "example" means specimen, sample. When one gives a sample of their blood at a lab they do not give all their blood only a small sample. But even more important the word "aionios/eternal" does not modify "suffering" or "vengeance." Only the fire was eternal. The verse does not say "eternal suffering" or "eternal vengeance." But remember in Matthew 25:46 Jesus did say "eternal punishment."

And anyway you want to slice it----eternal is eternal---means everlasting.
Don't care what meaning you want to take on "example"---eternal means forever and Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning, but they are eternally dead. destroyed, perished.

 

[Der Alte]

בְּיוֹם

bê'yom
in~DAY
Genesis 2:17
in the day you eat from him you will surely die,
Genesis 1:5
evening existed and morning existed, day one,
יוֹם

yom
DAY
Now I remember, you're the on that only believes in his own dictionary. There are 2 different spellings and it is said in 2 different ways in the original Hebrew, whether you believe it or not.
Mechanical Translation

I think I have explained this to you before but you disregarded all the evidence and have provided no, zero, none evidence of your own. Just your own conclusions. I have in fact provided credible, not my own dictionary, evidence such as the citation from the Jewish Encyclopedia. I have studied Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level. I am not an expert but I do know when others don't know what they are talking about, such as this instance case. The letter "בְּ/beth" prefixed to a noun is a preposition, it means "in the" and I cited at least three different sources substantiating this. So "בְּיוֹם/beyom" in Gen 2 means "in the day." A literal day not a period of indeterminate length. If you wish to disprove this please provide some credible, verifiable, historical evidence.
The same word occurs in this verse where it absolutely cannot mean a period of indeterminate length.

Gen 5:1 זה ספר תולדת אדם ביום ברא אלהים
Gen 5:1
(1) This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;​

I have not personally checked but I think I can safely say that every occurrence of "in the day" in the OT, it is written בְּיוֹם and it never means a period of indeterminate length.