How hell can make sense...

[Fred Manalo]

Hell only makes sense to me if some kind of form or type of re-incarnation or recycling of souls or people is possible and a reality...

This reality, a lot of it is torment, and I think this realm of reality is hell, I think it is the outer darkness outside the gates or kingdom walls of heaven where people, and some people suffer, or are miserable or tormented for eternity. Some people never change their ways and I think these ones are predestined and created to be unchanging and to always be miserable and make everyone else miserable, to be tormented and torment others, forever...

Some do change though and grow and achieve in God's eyes and overcome and develop and make it into heaven at some point. I think he predestined these ones as well, and the purpose of the ones who never change in his eyes, they were only created for, and their kinds of reality, this reality, only exists for the purpose of growing, developing and refining the rest of us that do and are predestined to make it into heaven...

We who make it often start out less than or under and perhaps, in some cases, even "worse" than the others who are not meant to, for the purpose of growing, developing and refining us, anyways we may start out less than or under, or maybe even "worse" than them, but, by them and at their hands we get refined and developed into growing into being more and greater than, and, in the next world, over them, and, in God's eyes, better than them, even if we may have started out worse.

Is that cruel of God to create creatures some that are predestined who do not ever make it, for the purpose of molding and shaping and predestining others that do make it, "because" of the ones who do not ever make it?

The only thing I can say is "hey, he's God, who are we to question what he can or cannot or should or shouldn't do?" Shall the potter say to the clay, "Why did you make me this way?" or, "Is not right for God to do what he wishes with his own things?" "Is it not right for God to make a vessel, one for an unfit use, another for a fitting use?"

God Bless!

Peace be with you.

God is merciful, so it is not according to his nature that he will torture those who sinned against him in hell forever and ever. From what Jesus revealed, we know that both soul and body are destroyed in hell:

Matthew 10:28 KJV
[28] And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 20:13-15 KJV
[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God bless!

 

[Fred Manalo]

Peace!

My take on this is that our decision or choice determines the predestination that the Bible speaks about:

Romans 8:29-30 KJV
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5 KJV
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:11 KJV
[11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

These are the ones who believed in Jesus Christ, who fulfilled the condition of the covenant between God and Israel:

Exodus 19:5-6 KJV
[5] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: [6] And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

John 1:12-13 KJV
[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Those who chose otherwise were the ones destined for destruction:

Acts 3:22-23 KJV
[22] For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. [23] And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

God bless!

 

[Der Alte]

No matter how many times this topic is posted and replied to, the same questions and arguments keep being posted over and over.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b) .
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10 ). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al ). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
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Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I. ​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. ​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say "eternal death" in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
Some people argue that when Jesus referred to Gehenna He was referring to the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem where there were supposedly constantly burning fires where trash and dead bodies were thrown.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in

The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. ” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/​

 

[Neogaia777]

I have heard people (non-Buddhists) discuss reincarnation as if it's a fascinating idea, and deciding they believe in it as if it's no more a big deal than a bagel for breakfast.

They seem to have no clue that eternal reincarnation in a broken world would indeed be hell.

Yes, that is what I'm trying to say,

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

Yes, sometimes I do see how there can seem to be 2 of these ideas coming out. What I notice, even by the references you gave is that ideas of predestination always seem to just be limited to a particular person for a specific period. The idea of choice seems to be the general principle fr humanity as a whole.

Jesus said the Father was greater then he was, and I think in complete omniscience as it apllies to predestination is what he meant...

Again, the deck of cards example,

God Bless!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Jesus said the Father was greater then he was, and I think in complete omniscience as it apllies to predestination is what he meant...

Again, the deck of cards example,

God Bless!

You're confusing 2 ideas though. Omniscience does not equate to predestination. Omniscience means to be all knowing. So God knows our destiny and this is the foreknowledge that I spoke of. Predestination is a concept not of knowledge but of imposing your will upon someone else regardless of their will. If I have foreknowledge then I would know exactly when you would die and what would be the cause of your death, but I am not responsible for your death. God cannot be responsible for anyone who is lost or else he can never be a God of justice.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I guess we are entering into the Calvinism/Armenian dilemma here. Does God choose us or do we choose God?

If we approach this from the perspective of God being omniscient (all knowing) then it is obvious that he has clear knowledge of whether people will want his way or their way.

If he does know these facts and I believe he does, he does not need to predestine anyone one way or the other. He will let events take their course and the person will respond or not as the case may be accordingly.

This would be an outworking of freewill which everyone of us has. So in fact, the choice is ours and ours alone as to whether we submit to the will of God.

if we do exercise our free will and say no to God, that is not God predesignating us. That is us being stupid and refusing the salvation he offers through his son Jesus.

If as the scripture says he is not willing that anyone will perish, then we only have ourselves to blame if we do because God's unwillingness for anyone to perish means that he is going to go out of his way to convince people that his way is the best way.

Very Well Put!!

 

[Blade]

To much of this is just speculation. The word of GOD talks about some of the things brought up here. People think God knows all. I believe this...yet I have questions. Satan.. God NEW Satan was going to fall? Yet whats written? "till sin/wickedness was found in you" FOUND? Adam/Eve/Cain.. where are you? HUH? God didnt know? Who said that to you? Again GOD didnt know? Cain.wheres your brother/why is his blood calling to me from the ground?" God again didnt know? Job.. God asks satan where have you come from? Huh? Again GOD didnt know?

For ME..ME..what I have found out about GOD is.. I am free. He does not spy SO TO SPEAK on my thoughts what I think so forth so on. When GOD asks me something.. He does not ask already knowing. See were talking about a GOD that made MAN in HIS image. We are not puppets nor we that know Him..we are not slaves but FRIENDS. How do US as MAN treat friends? God is SO much better yet perfect.

What I dont know.. what SIN can GOD really see..see into. It can not ever enter heaven and to think GOD just can look at it what ever..well take sodom and gomorrah.. Why did GOD come? To see if the crys He heard was true? Huh? AGAIN.. God didnt know?

Anyway.. so what happens after this life is YOUR FREE CHOICE! Hes GOD..you cant look at this as in black and white...most will just leave it ..there right others are wrong

 

[pshun2404]

He prefers that all would repent and come to salvation (foreknowing not all will) but that does not change His gracious offer (whosever will may come). You see the consequence of sin is eternal separation from God and all He would provide (no light, no order to calm the fires of chaos, no touch ever again or fellowship with even one other, because He created all of that to bless His creatures and they have rejected Him and His word) but the gift of God (called eternal life) is given because in Messiah He has provided the remission of sins, so when the judgment day comes He will look at you (if you Acts 2:38 with faith) and see Messiah’s atonement (covering) and not your sin. So now I say this to you. I (by His authority in me) set before YOU this day blessing or curse, life or death…YOU CHOOSE! May the Lord lead you and guide you into all truth….Amen

 

[John Hyperspace]

Hell only makes sense to me if some kind of form or type of re-incarnation or recycling of souls or people is possible and a reality...

This reality, a lot of it is torment, and I think this realm of reality is hell, I think it is the outer darkness outside the gates or kingdom walls of heaven where people, and some people suffer, or are miserable or tormented for eternity. Some people never change their ways and I think these ones are predestined and created to be unchanging and to always be miserable and make everyone else miserable, to be tormented and torment others, forever...

Some do change though and grow and achieve in God's eyes and overcome and develop and make it into heaven at some point. I think he predestined these ones as well, and the purpose of the ones who never change in his eyes, they were only created for, and their kinds of reality, this reality, only exists for the purpose of growing, developing and refining the rest of us that do and are predestined to make it into heaven...

We who make it often start out less than or under and perhaps, in some cases, even "worse" than the others who are not meant to, for the purpose of growing, developing and refining us, anyways we may start out less than or under, or maybe even "worse" than them, but, by them and at their hands we get refined and developed into growing into being more and greater than, and, in the next world, over them, and, in God's eyes, better than them, even if we may have started out worse.

Is that cruel of God to create creatures some that are predestined who do not ever make it, for the purpose of molding and shaping and predestining others that do make it, "because" of the ones who do not ever make it?

The only thing I can say is "hey, he's God, who are we to question what he can or cannot or should or shouldn't do?" Shall the potter say to the clay, "Why did you make me this way?" or, "Is not right for God to do what he wishes with his own things?" "Is it not right for God to make a vessel, one for an unfit use, another for a fitting use?"

God Bless!

As I'm lead to understand these biblical concepts are abstraction describing the state of being either in ignorance, and under the law; or in understanding, and under grace. The former is "hell" since the law works wrath and no one is anything but a transgressor. Under the law the fire of fear and torment never goes out, as the law is always ready to accuse and execute wrath; the proverbial worm never dies, death is always the outcome. Yet under grace there is no fear or torment, but a peace that passes all understanding. One is therefore either in the kingdom of God, which is light, love, understanding, and power of forgiveness; or in the outer darkness of hatred and ignorance, without forgiveness. Under the law there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The law is the refining fire which is everlasting; it cannot be put out. But, it can be escaped through grace and love.

As far as the cruelty of creating people expressly for the purpose of endless suffering, I cannot fathom any justification of this notion, and certainly see no support in scripture for such a notion of God. Verses used to attempt to justify the notion are all appeals to figurative language and symbolic literature, playing on some poorly translated words; all of which completely disregard the myriad passages clearly teaching universal reconciliation.

What really bewilders with the concept is the effect this should have on people who really do love their neighbors and even their enemies. I know that in my heart I would suffer right along with them because it's my nature to love others, and love causes one to suffer when ones who are loved suffer. If people are designed to suffer forever, then heaven is not possible for a person who truly belongs there; meaning, a person who actually loves others. Not only do I see zero biblical support for the notion of endless suffering, and clear support for the opposite, but every reasonable and rational argument rebuts the notion of endless suffering. I cannot see any possible scenario in which the notion is in any way true.

 

[rockytopva]

How can hell make sense? I don't plan on figuring out why!

 

[Der Alte]

As I'm lead to understand these biblical concepts are abstraction describing the state of being either in ignorance, and under the law; or in understanding, and under grace. The former is "hell" since the law works wrath and no one is anything but a transgressor. Under the law the fire of fear and torment never goes out, as the law is always ready to accuse and execute wrath; the proverbial worm never dies, death is always the outcome. Yet under grace there is no fear or torment, but a peace that passes all understanding. One is therefore either in the kingdom of God, which is light, love, understanding, and power of forgiveness; or in the outer darkness of hatred and ignorance, without forgiveness. Under the law there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. The law is the refining fire which is everlasting; it cannot be put out. But, it can be escaped through grace and love.

As far as the cruelty of creating people expressly for the purpose of endless suffering, I cannot fathom any justification of this notion, and certainly see no support in scripture for such a notion of God.

You are correct God did not create anyone for the purpose of endless suffering!

Verses used to attempt to justify the notion are all appeals to figurative language and symbolic literature, playing on some poorly translated words; all of which completely disregard the myriad passages clearly teaching universal reconciliation.

This is the common cop out when scripture as written contradicts someone's assumptions/presuppositions they simply blow it off as figurative, symbolic, poorly translated etc. There are NOT myriad passages teaching universal reconciliation [UR]!

What really bewilders with the concept is the effect this should have on people who really do love their neighbors and even their enemies. I know that in my heart I would suffer right along with them because it's my nature to love others, and love causes one to suffer when ones who are loved suffer. If people are designed to suffer forever, then heaven is not possible for a person who truly belongs there; meaning, a person who actually loves others. Not only do I see zero biblical support for the notion of endless suffering, and clear support for the opposite, but every reasonable and rational argument rebuts the notion of endless suffering. I cannot see any possible scenario in which the notion is in any way true.

People cannot see what they have made up their minds they don't want to see. Can you show us where Jesus said anything which could be construed as supporting UR?

 

[mmksparbud]

"How hell can make sense... "

I don't expect it's a 'recycling bin'.

But rather more of a kind of perpetual memorial (technically the lake of fire), which serves to be an ongoing witness of the destruction and damnation which justly falls upon those who rebel unrepentently against God's good will...and as such will serve as a reminder of that - so none can then ever again enter into a state of naivety or ignorance over whether it is a good idea or not to rebel against God and Truth.

The only reminder there will be of the consequences of sin, will the scars on the body of Jesus. Love is what will keep the saved from ever straying again, not fear of hell, fear has never deterred, love is what God is all about. The sinner will be cast into hell where he will pay for his sins and then be no more--there will be no sinners writhing in hell for eternity, there will be nor more sin.

 

[John Hyperspace]

This is the common cop out when scripture as written contradicts someone's assumptions/presuppositions they simply blow it off as figurative, symbolic, poorly translated etc.

I can't speak for others but that's not true of me. I don't interpret scripture according to presuppositions. I was raised to believe the same fundamental doctrine that many still believe. Those were my presuppositions for about twenty years. It was sincerity in search, a desire for only truth, and a good dose of, "God guide me into truth" with rigorous study of scripture that allowed me to overcome those presuppositions and get understanding.

Believe me, if you would have happened upon me on a forum many years ago, I would right now be condemning you to eternal suffering for you false and heretical teachings. Not about "endless suffering" but because you are a baptist. If you were not of the Church of Christ, you were going to burn forever for your willing ignorance, your willing rebellion against God, and that all of your worship and belief in God was entirely in vain. I would be condemning everyone on this forum to eternal suffering. I would also be stating that God is entirely just and holy for sending you and everyone else to burn for eternity. Why? "Because God is also Holy, and His Holy justice demands that all of you false Christians burn forever for your wickedness."

Even now I look back at how absurd that all is to have been proceeding from my mouth. But, absolute sovereignty explains how such things can actually be believed in the mind and heart of men.

There are NOT myriad passages teaching universal reconciliation [UR]!

There are. And they are taught with more clarity and precision than the scant (what are there, two?) verses interpreted as teaching endless suffering. In fact, there are no verses at all teaching the concept of endless suffering. Thus I would be so bold as to confidently maintain that those teaching such a notion are the ones basing their interpretation on assumption/presupposition; as also I once did.

Here is a small sample of passages:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (Thus all men will be drawn to Him)

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Thus the stated purpose of the cross wasn't to "attempt" reconciliation, but to manifestly reconcile all things in earth and heaven)

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Thus He is able to subdue all things)
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (Thus He will subdue all things to Him)
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (Thus every tongue will confess; and by confession is salvation: Romans 10:10: and in time everything in earth and heaven will believe and confess, and be reconciled into Him and His reign)

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (Thus as equally as all dying in Adam, all will live in Christ.)

John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (Thus the Saviour of the world; saving the world)
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (Thus Saviour of all, not just them that currently are saved)

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (Thus no man resists the will of God: all men to be saved)

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. (Thus not everyone is yet reconciled to His reign; but will be, since it is written, every knee will bow)

But then in light of these some will ignore all of them, and cite a passage containing the word "fire" which is able to be used figuratively (and often is obviously used this way) and of a saving fire (1 Corinthians 3:15); also ignoring that Jesus always spoke in parables (Matthew 13:34) and so His words concerning fire should be understood figuratively. They also ignore that there is not a single passage teaching "endless suffering" in any of these. So they basically ignore the myriad scriptures teaching universal reconciliation, which are not by way of parable; then cite verses from parables containing the concept of "fire" as though they are not parables, then attach the idea of "endless suffering" to their literal understanding of the parable which in no way teaches "endless suffering" and all for what? To paint a picture of God that causes mankind to flee from the God of love? (2 Corinthians 13:11)

No offense intended, but by way of scripture these would be "devils" teaching a "doctrine of devils" since the word "devils" is from "diabolos" meaning "to slander/falsely accuse" and their doctrine slanders the loving character of God, and falsely accuses God of doing unspeakable things. Again, as I've said before, this is also "blasphemy" since the word itself means to "injure the fame/name/reputation" and this doctrine does great injury to the reputation of God.

People cannot see what they have made up their minds they don't want to see.

I believe it is the people teaching endless suffering that have made up their minds to see something not at all in the scripture; something that for some very odd reason they wish to see. Why anyone would wish to see endless suffering upon them that they allegedly love is almost beyond me, expecting that I also believe in absolute sovereignty which means their mind is being made to behave in such a way by God. This is the only explanation as to why men would not only believe such notions which have no scriptural support, but believe them in spite of both the scripture teaching universal reconciliation, and, reason itself which makes one to understand that the notion of "endless suffering" violates the very concept of reason on every front.

 

[mmksparbud]

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God did not tell Adam and Eve they would be tormented forever and ever in hell if they ate of the tree, He said they would die.

 

[ljglazner]

Hell only makes sense to me if some kind of form or type of re-incarnation or recycling of souls or people is possible and a reality...

This reality, a lot of it is torment, and I think this realm of reality is hell, I think it is the outer darkness outside the gates or kingdom walls of heaven where people, and some people suffer, or are miserable or tormented for eternity. Some people never change their ways and I think these ones are predestined and created to be unchanging and to always be miserable and make everyone else miserable, to be tormented and torment others, forever...

Some do change though and grow and achieve in God's eyes and overcome and develop and make it into heaven at some point. I think he predestined these ones as well, and the purpose of the ones who never change in his eyes, they were only created for, and their kinds of reality, this reality, only exists for the purpose of growing, developing and refining the rest of us that do and are predestined to make it into heaven...

We who make it often start out less than or under and perhaps, in some cases, even "worse" than the others who are not meant to, for the purpose of growing, developing and refining us, anyways we may start out less than or under, or maybe even "worse" than them, but, by them and at their hands we get refined and developed into growing into being more and greater than, and, in the next world, over them, and, in God's eyes, better than them, even if we may have started out worse.

Is that cruel of God to create creatures some that are predestined who do not ever make it, for the purpose of molding and shaping and predestining others that do make it, "because" of the ones who do not ever make it?

The only thing I can say is "hey, he's God, who are we to question what he can or cannot or should or shouldn't do?" Shall the potter say to the clay, "Why did you make me this way?" or, "Is not right for God to do what he wishes with his own things?" "Is it not right for God to make a vessel, one for an unfit use, another for a fitting use?"

God Bless!

I used to hold my hand under hot water as long as I was able and then think, "If this was hell, I wouldn't be able to pull my hand away."
Later I came to question what I call the "Sunday School Version" of hell. One thing that gave me some hope is that I realized that in the story of the rich man and Lazerus, the rich man is not screaming in agony, as one would if they were on fire burning, but he was uncomfortable and wanted relief and talked perfectly casually with Abraham about the possibility. That is one difference I saw between the Bible's teaching and the Sunday School Version of hell; because you are right. It is difficult enough to imagine a God of love torturing people forever who failed miserably, but when they were predestined for that? When he made them a "vessel for dishonor"? That is not to say God doesn't have a RIGHT to do as he pleases with us all, but it didn't seem to be in line with the nature and goodness of God.

 

[ljglazner]

I have never liked that Potter and clay analogy. Why? Because pottery is nota sentient being with its own will and hopes, dreams, ideas, and thoughts. It's easy and right to form an inanimate object. Trying to work that way with sentient beings is a might-makes-right mentality, and just saying "We can't try to understand if question God" is a view that indicates giving up and not asking questions, again in that might-makes-right mentality.

good point. I have always had a mathematical problem with the concept that all creatures are reincarnated souls because, at one point presumably, there were a few million living creatures on the planet, and now there are trillions. The scripture does say that man is destined to die "but once" and after that to face judgment.

 

[Der Alte]

I can't speak for others but that's not true of me. I don't interpret scripture according to presuppositions. I was raised to believe the same fundamental doctrine that many still believe. Those were my presuppositions for about twenty years. It was sincerity in search, a desire for only truth, and a good dose of, "God guide me into truth" with rigorous study of scripture that allowed me to overcome those presuppositions and get understanding.

As I have said a number of times every heterodox group around makes the same claim; JW, LDS, SDA, WWCG, OP, UPCI, UU, INC etc. they all claim they prayed "God guide me into truth" and they all know that they know that "all the others are wrong and that only they have the real truth
[ * * * Your reminiscences Omitted * * *]

But, absolute sovereignty explains how such things can actually be believed in the mind and heart of men.

Concerning God's sovereignty, note this passage from Jerem. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just a chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will[/i], So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
This passage very much speaks to the issue of God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jeremiah 13:1-14 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man,
so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT[/b] have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

There are. And they are taught with more clarity and precision than the scant (what are there, two?) verses interpreted as teaching endless suffering. In fact, there are no verses at all teaching the concept of endless suffering. Thus I would be so bold as to confidently maintain that those teaching such a notion are the ones basing their interpretation on assumption/presupposition; as also I once did.

If the verses are spoken with such clarity why do you have to explain them, adding words to make them say what you want them to?

Here is a small sample of passages:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will

draw all men unto me. (Thus all men will be drawn to Him)

If your interpretation is correct explain why Jesus said. "Not every one ...shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" and "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Show me in scripture, not supposition, where those words change to "I now know you enter my kingdom?"

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

See Matt 7:21-23, above.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (Thus the stated purpose of the cross wasn't to "attempt" reconciliation, but to manifestly reconcile all things in earth and heaven)

In that day Jesus will say to many I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Thus He is able to subdue all things)

See Jer 13;1-14. God was able to make the entire house of Judah and Israel serve Him.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (Thus He will subdue all things to Him)

So God will subdue and force those who hate Him to love Him and serve Him?

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Romans 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (Thus every tongue will confess; and by confession is salvation:

Some will do so out of love and others be forced to admit that Christ is Lord just as when Israel conquered their enemies they were forced to acknowledge Israel as their sovereign.

Romans 10:10: and in time everything in earth and heaven will believe and confess, and be reconciled into Him and His reign)

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so

in Christ shall all be made alive. (Thus as equally as all dying in Adam, all will live in Christ.)

Another twisted scripture. All men are inherently "in Adam" because all men are literal, physical descendants of Adam. "All men" are not inherently "in Christ". To be "In Christ" they must first confess with their mouths and believe in their hearts.

John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ,

the Saviour of the world.

Do you think that an unsaved Samaritan woman was speaking "Thus saith the Lord?"

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. (Thus the Saviour of the world; saving the world)

The words "to be" are not in the original Greek. And what John wrote here must be read in conjunction with what Jesus said in Joh 3:17. Jesus did NOT say "the world through him will be saved."

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.​

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (Thus Saviour of all, not just them that currently are saved)

What Paul writes cannot contradict what Jesus Himself said.

1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (Thus no man resists the will of God: all men to be saved)

See Jer 13:1-14 above re: God's will.

Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But

now we see not yet all things put under him. (Thus not everyone is yet reconciled to His reign; but will be, since it is written, every knee will bow)

Every knee will bow, some in love and adoration others groveling on their knees as conquered enemies of God

But then in light of these some will ignore all of them, and cite a passage containing the word "fire" which is able to be used figuratively (and often is obviously used this way) and of a saving fire (1 Corinthians 3:15); also ignoring that Jesus always spoke in parables (Matthew 13:34) and so His words concerning fire should be understood figuratively. They also ignore that there is not a single passage teaching "endless suffering" in any of these. So they basically ignore the myriad scriptures teaching universal reconciliation, which are not by way of parable; then cite verses from parables containing the concept of "fire" as though they are not parables, then attach the idea of "endless suffering" to their literal understanding of the parable which in no way teaches "endless suffering" and all for what? To paint a picture of God that causes mankind to flee from the God of love? (2 Corinthians 13:11)
No offense intended, but by way of scripture these would be "devils" teaching a "doctrine of devils" since the word "devils" is from "diabolos" meaning "to slander/falsely accuse" and their doctrine slanders the loving character of God, and falsely accuses God of doing unspeakable things. Again, as I've said before, this is also "blasphemy" since the word itself means to "injure the fame/name/reputation" and this doctrine does great injury to the reputation of God.
I believe it is the people teaching endless suffering that have made up their minds to see something not at all in the scripture; something that for some very odd reason they wish to see. Why anyone would wish to see endless suffering upon them that they allegedly love is almost beyond me, expecting that I also believe in absolute sovereignty which means their mind is being made to behave in such a way by God. This is the only explanation as to why men would not only believe such notions which have no scriptural support, but believe them in spite of both the scripture teaching universal reconciliation, and, reason itself which makes one to understand that the notion of "endless suffering" violates the very concept of reason on every front.

See my next post.

 

[Der Alte]

Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b). … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches, not universal restoration, but that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/​

 

[John Hyperspace]

As I have said a number of times every heterodox group around makes the same claim; JW, LDS, SDA, WWCG, OP, UPCI, UU, INC etc. they all claim they prayed "God guide me into truth" and they all know that they know that "all the others are wrong and that only they have the real truth
[ * * * Your reminiscences Omitted * * *]

Sure, it seems every man under the sun makes the same claim. My point was that I had presuppositions, and since I no loner believe them, I no longer have presuppositions. Do you? By chance were your parents baptists?

Concerning God's sovereignty, note this passage from Jerem. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi.

Quoting one verse then addressing a Hebrew form is meaningless. Paul specifically states that no one resists the will of God; the idea is through the entire scripture. Paul even acknowledges a question he supposes someone will have by his clear teaching that God "hardens whom He will, and has mercy on whom He will"; the question "Then why does He still find fault, if none resist His will?"

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT[/b] have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

"Destroy" is a great deal away from "endless suffering": also, the scripture teaches that destruction need not be a "full end" and can lead to salvation. Indeed the very idea of salvation is, passing away of the old man, and birth of the new. Creation out of destruction.

If your interpretation is correct explain why Jesus said. "Not every one ...shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" and "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Show me in scripture, not supposition, where those words change to "I now know you enter my kingdom?"

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Most professing Christians won't see the kingdom during the age to come. Note there's nothing in this verse about endless suffering; just a barring from entering the kingdom.

See Jer 13;1-14. God was able to make the entire house of Judah and Israel serve Him.

But now we see not all things put under Him.

So God will subdue and force those who hate Him to love Him and serve Him?

God will expose misunderstandings perpetrated by Christians teaching a corrupt image of God. Unbelievers only hate and rebel against the corrupt image of God perpetrated on them by Christians teaching a corrupt image of God. When deception is removed, everyone will love and honor God, because He is good. They do not bow the knee to Him today because they do not know Him, but only know a corrupt image of God perpetrated on them by Christianity's misunderstandings, such as "eternal suffering" and misunderstandings as to why bad things happen.

Some will do so out of love and others be forced to admit that Christ is Lord just as when Israel conquered their enemies they were forced to acknowledge Israel as their sovereign.

There's nothing in the verse that says that. To confess that Jesus is Lord can only be done by the Spirit: 1 Corinthians 12:3, and confession is made to salvation: Romans 10:10

Another twisted scripture. All men are inherently "in Adam" because all men are literal, physical descendants of Adam. "All men" are not inherently "in Christ". To be "In Christ" they must first confess with their mouths and believe in their hearts.

The verse clearly says "all shall be made alive"

Do you think that an unsaved Samaritan woman was speaking "Thus saith the Lord?"

She was speaking the truth, as her words coinciding withe the apostles. Jesus is the Saviour of the world; whether you like it or not.

The words "to be" are not in the original Greek. And what John wrote here must be read in conjunction with what Jesus said in Joh 3:17. Jesus did NOT say "the world through him will be saved."

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The verse says Jesus is the Saviour of the world.

What Paul writes cannot contradict what Jesus Himself said.

It doesn't. It only contradicts people claiming Jesus isn't the Saviour of the world.

I notice you've not posted a single scripture stating anything about "endless suffering"; finding it difficult to find one?