How hell can make sense...

[Neogaia777]

Hell only makes sense to me if some kind of form or type of re-incarnation or recycling of souls or people is possible and a reality...

This reality, a lot of it is torment, and I think this realm of reality is hell, I think it is the outer darkness outside the gates or kingdom walls of heaven where people, and some people suffer, or are miserable or tormented for eternity. Some people never change their ways and I think these ones are predestined and created to be unchanging and to always be miserable and make everyone else miserable, to be tormented and torment others, forever...

Some do change though and grow and achieve in God's eyes and overcome and develop and make it into heaven at some point. I think he predestined these ones as well, and the purpose of the ones who never change in his eyes, they were only created for, and their kinds of reality, this reality, only exists for the purpose of growing, developing and refining the rest of us that do and are predestined to make it into heaven...

We who make it often start out less than or under and perhaps, in some cases, even "worse" than the others who are not meant to, for the purpose of growing, developing and refining us, anyways we may start out less than or under, or maybe even "worse" than them, but, by them and at their hands we get refined and developed into growing into being more and greater than, and, in the next world, over them, and, in God's eyes, better than them, even if we may have started out worse.

Is that cruel of God to create creatures some that are predestined who do not ever make it, for the purpose of molding and shaping and predestining others that do make it, "because" of the ones who do not ever make it?

The only thing I can say is "hey, he's God, who are we to question what he can or cannot or should or shouldn't do?" Shall the potter say to the clay, "Why did you make me this way?" or, "Is not right for God to do what he wishes with his own things?" "Is it not right for God to make a vessel, one for an unfit use, another for a fitting use?"

God Bless!

 

[wayfaring man]

Yeah, Think it's another one of those things that we won't know, (in detail), really well until it's fully revealed.

In the mean time - I would rather believe hell / banishment in the worst case scenario, and find out - oh, it's not quite that bad...then the other way 'round.

 

[Neogaia777]

Yeah, Think it's another one of those things that we won't know, (in detail), really well until it's fully revealed.

In the mean time - I would rather believe hell / banishment in the worst case scenario, and find out - oh, it's not quite that bad...then the other way 'round.

That kind of fear though may or may not be good or healthy and may even keep you from getting into heaven and going to hell...

That's how it's been with me anyhow...

My fear was not a fear of hell, but a fear of a everything spiritual, and only by learning how to overcome it, am I much better off now, but, am I only better now because I went through intense fear though...? It did make me choose to go to God...?

God Bless!

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Yeah, Think it's another one of those things that we won't know, (in detail), really well until it's fully revealed.

In the mean time - I would rather believe hell / banishment in the worst case scenario, and find out - oh, it's not quite that bad...then the other way 'round.

In that case, you really believe its not quite that bad.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

For the sake of clarity, do you believe that when everyone is created they are already predestined to be saved or lost and its not a matter of choice on their part?

 

[wayfaring man]

In that case, you really believe its not quite that bad.

No, in that case - I'm acknowledging that I have no first hand / real life experience to determine beyond any doubt what the exact details are going to be throughout the eternal realm.

What I was saying is I prefer to think it is really, really bad...so as to not mistakenly take it too lightly.

 

[wayfaring man]

That kind of fear though may or may not be good or healthy and may even keep you from getting into heaven and going to hell...

That's how it's been with me anyhow...

My fear was not a fear of hell, but a fear of a everything spiritual, and only by learning how to overcome it, am I much better off now, but, am I only better now because I went through intense fear though...? It did make me choose to go to God...?

God Bless!

Yeah, there are so many factors...fear. love, hate, confidence - they can all work for good or evil - depending on the context, the focus, the application and response.

Sometimes it helps to simplify.

Heaven = Good

Hell = Bad

Learn to follow Yeshua + Go to Heaven.

Reject His Instruction + Go to Hell.

 

[Neogaia777]

For the sake of clarity, do you believe that when everyone is created they are already predestined to be saved or lost and its not a matter of choice on their part?

By only the Father alone, yes...

All others not knowing gives them no choice to go about it like they have a choice, the not knowing either gives them a choice or creates the illusion of choice...

Like a deck of Cards, To God the Father, all Cards are the same, like aces of spades in a game of spades, for God, the Son, it's like all the red cards are the same, and all the black cards are the same, but to all of us all the cards are different...

God Bless!

 

[PROPHECYKID]

By only the Father alone, yes...

All others not knowing gives them no choice to go about it like they have a choice, the not knowing either gives them a choice or creates the illusion of choice...

Like a deck of Cards, To God the Father, all Cards are the same, like aces of spades in a game of spades, for God, the Son, it's like all the red cards are the same, and all the black cards are the same, but to all of us all the cards are different...

God Bless!

I do not agree. See, God is all knowing and he knows the future. God knows your destiny, he has foreknowledge. But your destiny is based on your choice. God just already knows what your choice is going to be. Notice, God is not making your choice for you, he just knows what you will eventually do. That is different to predestination.

 

[wayfaring man]

"How hell can make sense... "

I don't expect it's a 'recycling bin'.

But rather more of a kind of perpetual memorial (technically the lake of fire), which serves to be an ongoing witness of the destruction and damnation which justly falls upon those who rebel unrepentently against God's good will...and as such will serve as a reminder of that - so none can then ever again enter into a state of naivety or ignorance over whether it is a good idea or not to rebel against God and Truth.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

"How hell can make sense... "

I don't expect it's a 'recycling bin'.

But rather more of a kind of perpetual memorial (technically the lake of fire), which serves to be an ongoing witness of the destruction and damnation which justly falls upon those who rebel unrepentently against God's good will...and as such will serve as a reminder of that - so none can then ever again enter into a state of naivety or ignorance over whether it is a good idea or not to rebel against God and Truth.

Remember that after we see the Lake of Fire in Rev 20, Rev 21 starts with God creating a new heaven and a new earth, getting rid of all the former things. I can't see why God would recreate the heavens and the earth and yet keep the Lake of Fire, the the former things would not have passed away. There is no description that we get in the bible of the Earth made New where the Lake of Fire is still around.

 

[wayfaring man]

On free will and predestination.

There appears to be elements of both.

We are told God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. That He would rather we repent and be saved.

Ezekiel 18:32 + 2 Peter 3:9

Yet we are also told The Lord 'raised up Pharoh' to show forth His power / wrath.

And that God makes some unto honor and some unto dishonor.

See Romans 9

Sort of paradoxical on the surface anyway.

Seems like once we think we know just how something is...something else pops up which challenges that sense of knowing certainly.

Maybe the point is - that we are yet incapable of knowing much of anything perfectly, and are best off (for now anyway), to be humbly waiting on The Lord to clarify many, many things.

See 1 Corinthians 8:1-2

 

[PROPHECYKID]

On free will and predestination.

There appears to be elements of both.

We are told God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. That He would rather we repent and be saved.

Ezekiel 18:32 + 2 Peter 3:9

Yet we are also told The Lord 'raised up Pharoh' to show forth His power / wrath.

And that God makes some unto honor and some unto dishonor.

See Romans 9

Sort of paradoxical on the surface anyway.

Seems like once we think we know just how something is...something else pops up which challenges that sense of knowing certainly.

Maybe the point is - that we are yet incapable of knowing much of anything perfectly, and are best off (for now anyway), to be humbly waiting on The Lord to clarify many, many things.

See 1 Corinthians 8:1-2

Yes, sometimes I do see how there can seem to be 2 of these ideas coming out. What I notice, even by the references you gave is that ideas of predestination always seem to just be limited to a particular person for a specific period. The idea of choice seems to be the general principle fr humanity as a whole.

 

[LaSorcia]

I have heard people (non-Buddhists) discuss reincarnation as if it's a fascinating idea, and deciding they believe in it as if it's no more a big deal than a bagel for breakfast.

They seem to have no clue that eternal reincarnation in a broken world would indeed be hell.

 

[wayfaring man]

Yes, sometimes I do see how there can seem to be 2 of these ideas coming out. What I notice, even by the references you gave is that ideas of predestination always seem to just be limited to a particular person for a specific period. The idea of choice seems to be the general principle fr humanity as a whole.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I see it too.

God has a general will for all.

And a specific will for each individual.

 

[wayfaring man]

I have heard people (non-Buddhists) discuss reincarnation as if it's a fascinating idea, and deciding they believe in it as if it's no more a big deal than a bagel for breakfast.

They seem to have no clue that eternal reincarnation in a broken world would indeed be hell.

Hindus I think are big on the idea of reincarnation.

My thoughts when talking to them were, yeah there could possibly be such a thing, but Scripture doesn't support it, so if it is true, then we're probably not supposed to know about it, because we procrastinate way too much already on the whole...and yes I still think it's untrue. But I can't prove that it's not... Also our time and energy is better spent on 'proving ' the things which are expedient and have the greatest basis for being pertinent + in need of urgent attention for the sake of our Salvation.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Hell only makes sense to me if some kind of form or type of re-incarnation or recycling of souls or people is possible and a reality...

This reality, a lot of it is torment, and I think this realm of reality is hell, I think it is the outer darkness outside the gates or kingdom walls of heaven where people, and some people suffer, or are miserable or tormented for eternity. Some people never change their ways and I think these ones are predestined and created to be unchanging and to always be miserable and make everyone else miserable, to be tormented and torment others, forever...

Some do change though and grow and achieve in God's eyes and overcome and develop and make it into heaven at some point. I think he predestined these ones as well, and the purpose of the ones who never change in his eyes, they were only created for, and their kinds of reality, this reality, only exists for the purpose of growing, developing and refining the rest of us that do and are predestined to make it into heaven...

We who make it often start out less than or under and perhaps, in some cases, even "worse" than the others who are not meant to, for the purpose of growing, developing and refining us, anyways we may start out less than or under, or maybe even "worse" than them, but, by them and at their hands we get refined and developed into growing into being more and greater than, and, in the next world, over them, and, in God's eyes, better than them, even if we may have started out worse.

Is that cruel of God to create creatures some that are predestined who do not ever make it, for the purpose of molding and shaping and predestining others that do make it, "because" of the ones who do not ever make it?

The only thing I can say is "hey, he's God, who are we to question what he can or cannot or should or shouldn't do?" Shall the potter say to the clay, "Why did you make me this way?" or, "Is not right for God to do what he wishes with his own things?" "Is it not right for God to make a vessel, one for an unfit use, another for a fitting use?"

God Bless!

I have never liked that Potter and clay analogy. Why? Because pottery is nota sentient being with its own will and hopes, dreams, ideas, and thoughts. It's easy and right to form an inanimate object. Trying to work that way with sentient beings is a might-makes-right mentality, and just saying "We can't try to understand if question God" is a view that indicates giving up and not asking questions, again in that might-makes-right mentality.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[greg r]

One person has wrote that Hell is not so much a place as it is experience. A Fr John Romanides, author of "Ancestral Sin", says that the glory of God is a reward of light and communion to those who've accepted him and lived a life in humility to Him; and for those who rejected Him, His glory is a consuming fire. ALL will be raised in the Last Day, all will be before Him. His glory will be a reward to the redeemed; and an everlasting punishment to those who rejected His love. All will experience His glory, how we lived for or against Him will affect our experience in Him. Many passages in the Bible are sometimes hard to discern whether poetic or literal; but taken too literal too often can occlude our understanding. Our loving God, through Jesus Christ, has been preparing the way for us, for the last days and judgement. Whatever we receive in judgement or reward is a choice made in this life; and that our eternal state is how we will experience Him and His glory depending on how we live in the here and now.

 

[Episaw]

For the sake of clarity, do you believe that when everyone is created they are already predestined to be saved or lost and its not a matter of choice on their part?

I guess we are entering into the Calvinism/Armenian dilemma here. Does God choose us or do we choose God?

If we approach this from the perspective of God being omniscient (all knowing) then it is obvious that he has clear knowledge of whether people will want his way or their way.

If he does know these facts and I believe he does, he does not need to predestine anyone one way or the other. He will let events take their course and the person will respond or not as the case may be accordingly.

This would be an outworking of freewill which everyone of us has. So in fact, the choice is ours and ours alone as to whether we submit to the will of God.

if we do exercise our free will and say no to God, that is not God predesignating us. That is us being stupid and refusing the salvation he offers through his son Jesus.

If as the scripture says he is not willing that anyone will perish, then we only have ourselves to blame if we do because God's unwillingness for anyone to perish means that he is going to go out of his way to convince people that his way is the best way.