How Free will establishes FAITH... but what would I know.....

[rnmomof7]

Yes.

Faith is trusting.

We have that choice (which isn't the same as being drawn, nor the same as being moved, nor the same as being helped, all of which are from Him....).

Adam and Eve -- really did have a choice. They didn't have that choice to distrust God made for them.

It was a real choice.

Because there was no sin in the world, man was not corrupted so he had a choice.. Yet God ordained that choice..

 

[Halbhh]

Because there was no sin in the world, man was not corrupted so he had a choice.. Yet God ordained that choice..

Well, I think confusion would arise from using the word 'ordained' that way, since to me (and some others no doubt) it would mean something perhaps not what was intended to be conveyed. "Ordained" to many would mean either something like:
A) fated to happen (instead of simply foreseen!), or else
B) confer holiness or priesthood upon.

Now some portion of people believe in a 'clockwork universe' in which things that happen are not simply foreseen, but instead set in stone, fated. (so that even God could not change them?) I'm not a believer in that particular idea. It seems to contradict too much scripture. It fits far better so many scriptures to think God can foresee things, instead of Him making us merely like rigidly programmed robots.

 

[BBAS 64]

Oh, I don't subscribe to everything William Lane Craig does or teaches, but I would never resort to James White for justification as to why. As far as I'm concerned, that would be like trying to remedy a stomachache with poison.

You mean sort of like cancer and chemo?

 

[Charlie24]

Who is it that gives the desire and ability to repent and believe ?

Phil. 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Let's back up to vs 12 and see who Paul is talking to. Wouldn't you agree that context of scripture is very important?

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Paul is speaking to the saved. What does he mean by working out their own salvation?

This is speaking of moving on in maturity, to the ultimate goal of Christlikeness. It is the God that works in you both to will and do His good pleasure. The will of God is for us to become like Christ.

 

[aiki]

You mean sort of like cancer and chemo?

Nope. I mean having indigestion and taking sulphuric acid as a remedy.

 

[aiki]

Just how much free will does any man or woman really have?

Sufficient to be responsible for what choices we make concerning the Gospel.

Did you choose your sex? Your parents? Your place of birth? Your IQ? If you get cancer can you will it away? If you decide to jump off a 20 story building can you choose to stop 1/2 way down? Can you fly? Can you swim across the ocean?

Having distinct limits and constraints upon us doesn't utterly preclude free agency.

Who determined the nature of all living things (including you)?

Can man choose to change his nature?

And your point is?

If all these things were predetermined by God, why should we deny Him the right and authority to determine our eternity ?

No one is denying God the right to anything (I'm not, anyway). God has so ordained things such that we have the freedom to choose how we will respond to His saving work in us. He has made us response-able and thus responsible for our choices, but this in no way wrests a right away from God; it simply observes what is true.

 

[charsan]

Have you considered that it is God Himself that "makes something happen "

Of course. We are not robots as Calvinism wants us to be where we don't do anything at all. As another poster said on this topic:

because man is able to choose the good. our freedom is a gift given by God which we never lose.

I know Calvinism for some reason hates freedom but nevertheless God has given man freedom.

 

[ArmyMatt]

.

 

[Neogaia777]

This quite ignores the analogy I offered which demonstrates that what you're saying is not entirely accurate. In fact, your response here seems like equivocation, to me.



If a man came to you and said, "Hamsters rule the moon!" and you asked him how he knew this, would you accept from him as a reasonable response the kind of response you give above? I'm sure you wouldn't. You'd want some reasoned argument in support of the fellow's claim. If he replied to your request for a reasoned argument with, "I just know hamsters do. Hamsters have to rule the moon!" would you think the man had made anything like a good case for his belief? Of course not. All he's done is make an assertion. He hasn't offered one bit of justification for his assertion. So, too, with your response above. "Just does" and "has to" are mere assertions, standing all alone without any supporting rationale.



Merely saying so doesn't make it so.

You obviously have no real true understading or mental capacity to have even the vaguest and slightest idea of what true full omniscience is or what it automatically implies, entials, or has to mean as a concept or idea, etc... And until you do, I see no point in talking with you or to you about it, etc...

Get back to me when you finally do get or have the mental capacity to grasp the concept, K...?

Anyway,

God Bless!

 

[BBAS 64]

Of course. We are not robots as Calvinism wants us to be where we don't do anything at all. As another poster said on this topic:

I know Calvinism for some reason hates freedom but nevertheless God has given man freedom.

Good Day,

Calvinist's say we are robots .. do you have a primary source for that statement?

Men are Creatures..

If you need to understand that Calvinist do believe in free will here is a video that you may find helpful:

If you still assert that Calvinist do not believe in Free- will then you will need a primary source for that assertion as well, and then I would be glad to interact. With you on that source.

In Him,

Bill

 

[faroukfarouk]

Have you considered that it is God Himself that "makes something happen "

God is God! the God of Ephesians 1...

 

[charsan]

Calvinist's say we are robots ..

If someone can't choose than they are robots. Take away free-will and you take away choice which is a robot. They see God as the ancient pagans do or muslims do, a God who is angry and does anything He wants making some people to go to Hell.

 

[rnmomof7]

If someone can't choose than they are robots. Take away free-will and you take away choice which is a robot. They see God as the ancient pagans do or muslims do, a God who is angry and does anything He wants making some people to go to Hell.

Did you choose your sex? Your parents? Your place or time of your birth? ..



Men will always choose according to their nature and the choices that are available to them..

 

[charsan]

Did you choose your sex? Your parents? Your place or time of your birth? ..



Men will always choose according to their nature and the choices that are available to them..

Apples and Oranges. God gave man free will and eill not take that away, man takes that away because many hate freedom

 

[rnmomof7]

Apples and Oranges. God gave man free will and eill not take that away, man takes that away because many hate freedom

No,not apples and oranges..You can only make choices from the options available to you.. your will is limited.. and it is limited by God

 

[faroukfarouk]

No,not apples and oranges..You can only make choices from the options available to you.. your will is limited.. and it is limited by God

Sin makes the human will a bit like an election in a Communist country, where the people are free to vote, but there is only one candidate: the Communist one.

 

[BBAS 64]

Apples and Oranges. God gave man free will and eill not take that away, man takes that away because many hate freedom

Good day, Charsan

Did Abimelech have the available option to choose to touch her?

Was he free and able to do so?

When God says I did not let what does that mean?

Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

In Him,

Bill

 

[charsan]

No,not apples and oranges..You can only make choices from the options available to you.. your will is limited.. and it is limited by God

Sorry, no. Clavinism brainwashes that silly idea into it adherents

 

[rnmomof7]

Sorry, no. Clavinism brainwashes that silly idea into it adherents

Serious question , can you chose something that is not available to you? Can you choose to sprout wings and fly? We could not choose our sex, our parents, our place of birth.. Most of us could never choose to be brain surgeons .We can only make choices from what is available to us.. God determine that not us..

As Paul taught ...Acts 17 :26
and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,

 

[rnmomof7]

Well, I think confusion would arise from using the word 'ordained' that way, since to me (and some others no doubt) it would mean something perhaps not what was intended to be conveyed. "Ordained" to many would mean either something like:
A) fated to happen (instead of simply foreseen!), or else
B) confer holiness or priesthood upon.

Now some portion of people believe in a 'clockwork universe' in which things that happen are not simply foreseen, but instead set in stone, fated. (so that even God could not change them?) I'm not a believer in that particular idea. It seems to contradict too much scripture. It fits far better so many scriptures to think God can foresee things, instead of Him making us merely like rigidly programmed robots.

The fall was ordained by God (as you put it "fated" to happen" ) The cross was ordained (fated if you like) by God before the foundation of the world(1 Peter 1:
18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers,19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. 20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.


.. .. If the fall was not part of Gods plan.. it would not have occurred.. Christ would not have been needed .. Adam and Eve would still be walking in the garden with God..
Man would never know the fulness of Gods attributes ... God was glorified in the fall