How far does Noahide go....

[visionary]

Let's look at the hoahide view of the final war...

http://www.noahide.com/finalwar.htm

Our most pressing task, to put it simply, is to launch an international Noachide revolution without delay. The process has already begun, with dozens of tiny Noachide communities having appeared throughout the United States, generally composed of former Christians who have abandoned that religion.

 

[Torah613]

And why do you persist in spreading these lies and slanders about our people when everyone with a jewish neshama is so busy being knee deeep in grief.

Oh yeah, I forgot--not Jewish.

Yochanan

 

[visionary]

Keep reading that same website...

In the second stage, the growing Noachide movement will seize political power—using only peaceful, lawful means—in the capitals of the Western nations. This, of course, will not take place until the Noachide society has grown to some threshold size. We do not know how large this needs to be nor which nations will join the revolution first, although the United States, as a fairly religious, conservative nation, certainly tops the list of prospects.

 

[visionary]

If you do not believe that this is a political agenda to the bitter end... continue reading that website..

Upon seizing the reins of government, the new Noachide leaders will move quickly to implement a full agenda of reform. All economic and technological aid to the Communist Bloc, including the PLO, will be terminated immediately. Full support will be given to Israeli forces to reinvade PLO-controlled areas, with military assistance offered where necessary. Jewish courts (the batei dini of the rabbis) will be granted full legal sovereignty over Jewish citizens within each country, who will no longer be subject to the authority of gentile courts. The pre-existing Noachide judges and courts will replace the existing court system of each country, and the legal code will be drastically rewritten to conform to halacha; in the United States, the emphasis will be on restoring the authority of the Constitution and abolishing all unconstitutional government programs and agencies. The national debt will be foreclosed, probably by paying off creditors with government land holdings, thus averting economic disaster. And law and order will be fully restored through the establishment of internal security measures, again in accordance with Torah law.

Understand that I do not have a problem with the support and actions taken for Israel and its people.

 

[Torah613]

Let's look at the hoahide view of the final war...

http://www.noahide.com/finalwar.htm

Our most pressing task, to put it simply, is to launch an international Noachide revolution without delay. The process has already begun, with dozens of tiny Noachide communities having appeared throughout the United States, generally composed of former Christians who have abandoned that religion.

soo you are upset with them for believing the bible? for believing what G-ds holy prophets had to say?

Vis, I'm really shocked at what your saying right now. especially considering they are saying nearly the same thing that is party line evangelical stuff (excepting the J*sus part).

BTW, the revolution they are talking about is a spiritual revolution.

yochanan

 

[visionary]

soo you are upset with them for believing the bible? for believing what G-ds holy prophets had to say?

Vis, I'm really shocked at what your saying right now. especially considering they are saying nearly the same thing that is party line evangelical stuff (excepting the J*sus part).

BTW, the revolution they are talking about is a spiritual revolution.

yochanan

Not if you do not believe that noachide is biblical.. but racist ...

 

[Torah613]

deleted by author

 

[Torah613]

So let me get this straight. Messianics try for years and years to be accepted as part of the Jewish community, but have their own beliefs and not practice Judaism as Jews.

Then a group of goyim come along and say "You know, we love HaShem. We want to dedicate our lives to HaShem and His glory. We want to follow HaShem." And you are upset with them because they can be recognized as part of the Jewish community and you can't be?

Is that about right?

yochanan

 

[Torah613]

Not if you do not believe that noachide is biblical.. but racist ...

and just how is the noachide movement racist? Any gentile can become a ger toshav.

Are you saying its racist because they are saying there is a difference between Jews (am Yisrail) and the goyim?

I really don't understand what your saying here. Its like so far from left field its practically fiction.

Yochanan

 

[Torah613]

you know what, this isnt' worth my time discussing. Have a nice life.

Yochanan

 

[visionary]

So let me get this straight. Messianics try for years and years to be accepted as part of the Jewish community, but have their own beliefs and not practice Judaism as Jews.

Then a group of goyim come along and say "You know, we love HaShem. We want to dedicate our lives to HaShem and His glory. We want to follow HaShem." And you are upset with them because they can be recognized as part of the Jewish community and you can't be?

Is that about right?

yochanan

It would be wonderful to have the Jewish community recognise Yeshua style Judaism as authentic Judaism sect.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Vis,

Just trying to connect the dots here. Are you trying to tie the Noachide Laws into this passage? Do you believe that the Noachide Law are a fulfillment?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[visionary]

Vis,

Just trying to connect the dots here. Are you trying to tie the Noachide Laws into this passage? Do you believe that the Noachide Law are a fulfillment?

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Absolutely not... at least I hope not... but then they who are for noahide have to come to a decision as to whether they will be the ones who will fulfill it. If we can get the sanhedrin to accept us, not as a noahide but as Yeshua style Judaism in which we are all under one law, I think that would be wonderful. The Levites can continue to be the priests, and the line of David still sit on the throne...

 

[Lulav]

This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia article LAWS, NOACHIAN.

In the elaboration of these seven Noachian laws, and in assigning punishments for their transgression, the Rabbis are sometimes more lenient and sometimes more rigorous with Noachidæ than with Israelites. With but a few exceptions, the punishment meted out to a Noachid for the transgression of any of the seven laws is decapitation, the least painful of the four modes of execution of criminals (see Capital Punishment). The many formalities of procedure essential when the accused is an Israelite need not be observed in the case of the Noachid. The latter may be convicted on the testimony of one witness, even on that of relatives, but not on that of a woman. He need have had no warning ("hatra'ah") from the witnesses; and a single judge may pass sentence on him (ib. 57a, b; "Yad," l.c. ix. 14). With regard to idolatry, he can be found guilty only if he worshiped an idol in the regular form in which that particular deity is usually worshiped; while in the case of blasphemy he may be found guilty, even when he has blasphemed with one of the attributes of God's name—an action which, if committed by an Israelite, would not be regarded as criminal (ib. 56b; see Blasphemy).

For the entire article:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=113&letter=L&search=laws of noah

Explicitlyanti-torah, especially the one witness thing. As well as an Israelite can blaspheme G-d and not be punished, but a gentile will? that sure protects them against all the filth they speak about our Messiah.
If these are upheld then all Christians and Messianics can immediately be sentenced and put to death, no trial, nothing, only one false witness, and OFF WITH YOUR HEAD!!!!

Under the Mashiach? You bet it will. May it happen speedily and in our days.

Our Messiah will have no courts of law, when he comes back, all who reject him and don't obey him will be dealt with, no courts.

Not at all. The world is being prepped for the Mashiach.

The world is being prepped for the false Messiah, after which the true Messiah will come back and save those who are worthy, by repentance.

I hate to jump into this as I'm afraid it will turn into a fight, but may I point out one thing that I think is being overlooked?

Try as they might, politicians can not legislate morality or bring about Moshiach in man's time by man's means.

Vis, I think you might be freaking out a little because you're feeling like the Noahiders are going to try to take over the world and make every deny their real religion, etc. And I have no doubt that some are zealous enough to have that be their long-term goal! But I also think that there is one big distinction. The Noahide laws are HaShem speaking, and in super-duper broad strokes He's saying (paraphrasing here) "...there are laws that every living human being should live by, but a Jewish person has even MORE responsibilities (laws) because they are the ones I chose." The Noahide laws are like "common decency" laws--and I have no doubt that some folks have gotten over zealous and said they are the bare minimum to stay alive! Every major world religion has their folks who are extreme or zealots--even christians have folks who pick up poisonous snakes and stuff.

So on the one hand, I think when some folks here reply "Yahoo I look forward to the day that the Noahide Laws are obeyed and HaShem is the name that causes every knee to bow and every tongue confess"--but that is a spiritual event that will take place in God's time. That is WAY different than saying "Yahoo, I look forward to the day that a small group of zealots force everyone to obey Noahide Laws or kill themn so that we can force HaShem's hand and MAKE the Moshiach come." See, I think those two statements are being jumbled into one pile in your mind and they are not.

I too look forward to the day that has been promised when every knee will bow and every tongue confess the name of The One! I too believe that in that day the Noahide Laws will be obeyed by everyone out of respect and love for HaShem--not because some politician forced them or some zealot said they would kill them. In a way I view it very much like I view the timing of when Yehashua came to earth--He came when it pleased HaShem and the time was right, not when some we here on earth did anything to "make it happen." Same here. Every knee will bow WILLINGLY when HaShem comes and it will be when it pleases HIM, not when we here on earth necessarily do anything to "make it happen." In other words, we are here for His Glory and we wait on Him.

How about if everyone take a breath?

You are basing this on the current laws of the land. ?but what will happen if a Muslim, sits in the White house? How much different you think is Sharia law to Noachide law?

The Noachide laws are not HaShem speaking, they are laws derived from his words and twisted to use against you, don't you see that? Show me where HaShem said to kill those believing in his son? The noachide laws are not given anywhere in the bible or taught to the nations, outside what we see carried on from Shem, Japeth and Ham. Every single human being has been shown what is good and what is not, many call it a conscience, defined as:

The awareness of a moral or ethical aspect to one's conduct together with the urge to prefer right over wrong

I believe that awareness came when Chava and Adom ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Here they received this thing we call. 'conscience'. Even Paul speaks of the gentiles having this, he calls it the natural law

( Romans 2:[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another [/FONT]

Amen

I'll only Amen to the True Moschiach, there is a false one still to come.

 

[visionary]

I'll only Amen to the True Moschiach, there is a false one still to come.

That is what is so wonderful about the truth... It makes that statement true, but in our light, not the darkness in which it was spoken.

 

[ChavaK]

And why do you persist in spreading these lies and slanders about our people when everyone with a jewish neshama is so busy being knee deep in grief.

Yes.....our souls have been shredded...our people feel a collective sorrow....we will never forget.

 

[visionary]

On May 25, 1993 the United Nations Security Council passed a resolution establishing the an International Criminal Tribunal. While claiming to act under "under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations", the Security Council, in creating the ICT, violated the U.N. Charter, which states that the Council has no competence whatsoever in judicial matters. According to the president of the International Progress Organization, an NGO (non-governmental organization) which has worked in various associations with the United Nations for almost 30 years: "The provisions of Chapter VII determine the Council's competence in matters of international security but not in matters of criminal justice or other judicial matters. The sole authority in international judicial matters rests with the International Court of Justice."

In ratifying the treaty required to establish an International Criminal Court, the following broad parameters were presented by the U.N. in a 16 June 2000 press release:

"The Rules of Procedure and Evidence cover such issues as composition and administration of the Court, penalties for crimes, obligations of international cooperation and assistance, as well as enforcement of sentences. On the matter of crimes initially within the Court’s jurisdiction -- genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity -- the Commission is working to identify what elements would constitute those crimes and would need to be proven in order to obtain convictions. In the category of crimes against humanity, it is discussing such crimes as murder, enslavement, extermination, persecution, disappearance and sexual crimes."

The formulation of a body of moral principles to govern mankind is currently the objective of a worldwide, multicultural and religio-political network that is working diligently to hasten mankind's return to the Natural Law. This many-faceted movement is demanding that entire nations submit to a set of principles variously termed the Noahide Laws, the Moral Law, Natural Law, Universal Law, etc. Such a movement would normally not concern Christians, who are required under most circumstances to obey the laws of those in governmental authority.

 

[visionary]

Let's back up a second and see where the noachide developed from..

The doctrines of the Lubavitch Movement are derived from the Kabbalah, the source book of Jewish mysticism or Gnosticism. The Encyclopedia of Religion states that the Lubavitch Hasidic interpretation of the Lurianic system of Kabbalah is among those taught in traditional Jewish institutions:

"The dominant brand of Qabbalah in the modern Qabbalistic Yeshivot (traditional Jewish academies) is the Lurianic system. It is studied according to the interpretations offered by Mosheh Hayyim Luzzatto, by Eliyyahu ben Shelomoh Aalman, by Habad, the Lubavitch Hasidic Movement and by the Sefardic Qabbalists of the Beit El Academy in Jerusalem." Encyclopedia of Religion, "Qabbalah"

 

[visionary]

Even the Masonic society get in on the discussion...

According to Masonic doctrine, a Noahide is an average Gentile, while a "true Noachida" would be a "righteous Gentile" (eg., a Mason) who pursues the study and keeping of the 7 Laws, thereby attaining to an advanced level of spirituality:
"When one of the Children of Noah engages in the study of the Seven Universal Laws, he is able to attain a spiritual level higher than the High Priest of the Jews, who alone has the sanctity to enter the Holy of Holies in the Temple in Jerusalem."

Now I believe we can all agre that this ain't right...

 

[visionary]

The Noachides & Rome's Chief Rabbi, Riccardo Di Segni


"In Rome, on January 17, 2002, in the Lecture hall of the Major Roman Pontifical Seminary, a meeting was organized by the Diocese of Rome, part of the Day of Jewish-Christian dialogue. Present on the Catholic side were Cardinal Jorge Maria Mejia and Msgr. Rino Fisichella, and on the Jewish side, Rabbi Riccardo Di Segni, who replaced Rabbi Elio Toaff as Chief Rabbi of Rome...

"Rabbi Di Segni...explains [the seven precepts that all noachides must respect]:

"These rules are: interdiction of all worship except monotheism, interdiction on blasphemy, the obligation to form tribunals, the interdiction on homicide, theft, adultery, and incest, and the interdiction on eating food torn from living animals.

"...The Rabbi's attention is completely fixed on the first precept, that of monotheism: 'As to the monotheist cult, apparently, it poses no doubt for the major religions.' Aren't Judaism, Christianity and Islam defined, in post-conciliar language that has become colloquial today, as 'the three major monotheist religions? In fact, Di Segni sees no difficulty in defining Muslims as strict and even circumcised monotheists. But, as to Christians, he has some doubts....

christians: monotheists or idolators?

"This is where Di Segni---who is the author of the re-publication of the Toledoths Jehsu, under the new title, Il Vangelo del Ghetto [The Gospel of the Ghetto], with the Toledoths Jehsu being the most inflammatory Jewish legends against Jesus (1)---'speaks clearly' to the prelates who heard him:

"At the point we have now reached, it is necessary to make a clarification on Jewish theology, which, on the subject of monotheism and how it is lived by Christianity, gives rise to a debate that is essentially a dilemma. The point in question is in view of establishing whether Jesus' divinity can be compatible, for a non-Jew (because for a Jew it is absolutely not) with the monotheistic concept.

"In other words: The Jew who would become a Christian, thus then believing in the divinity of Jesus, would cease to be a monotheist in order to become an idolater. Must one say the same thing of a non-Jew? Is believing in Jesus' divinity a sin of idolatry, a violation of the first precept of the Noachide law? Rabbi Di Segni advises:

"'As to be expected, in Jewish theology, the answer to this question is not unanimous: some firmly deny it, others place certain conditions on it. The consequence is that, according to the literal opinion, the Christian would not be on the path of salvation' since he is guilty of idolatry...

"Di Segni concludes: 'If one must literally apply the Noachide system of laws, it [the punishment of death] would be applied to all, so that the Noachides might observe it. Likewise, the punishment of death would apply to what treats forbidding the worship of strange gods,' in view of monotheism." - 559

Source: "The Noachides and Rome's Chief Rabbi, Riccardo Di Segni," Father Francesco Ricossa, Sodalitium, French Edition, No. 53, July, 2002, translated by Suzanne M. Rini, Trans Et Alia, Vol. 3, No. 3, Sept. 2002.