How far does Noahide go....

[visionary]

I hate to jump into this as I'm afraid it will turn into a fight, but may I point out one thing that I think is being overlooked?

Try as they might, politicians can not legislate morality or bring about Moshiach in man's time by man's means.

Vis, I think you might be freaking out a little because you're feeling like the Noahiders are going to try to take over the world and make every deny their real religion, etc. And I have no doubt that some are zealous enough to have that be their long-term goal! But I also think that there is one big distinction. The Noahide laws are HaShem speaking, and in super-duper broad strokes He's saying (paraphrasing here) "...there are laws that every living human being should live by, but a Jewish person has even MORE responsibilities (laws) because they are the ones I chose." The Noahide laws are like "common decency" laws--and I have no doubt that some folks have gotten over zealous and said they are the bare minimum to stay alive! Every major world religion has their folks who are extreme or zealots--even christians have folks who pick up poisonous snakes and stuff.

So on the one hand, I think when some folks here reply "Yahoo I look forward to the day that the Noahide Laws are obeyed and HaShem is the name that causes every knee to bow and every tongue confess"--but that is a spiritual event that will take place in God's time. That is WAY different than saying "Yahoo, I look forward to the day that a small group of zealots force everyone to obey Noahide Laws or kill themn so that we can force HaShem's hand and MAKE the Moshiach come." See, I think those two statements are being jumbled into one pile in your mind and they are not.

I too look forward to the day that has been promised when every knee will bow and every tongue confess the name of The One! I too believe that in that day the Noahide Laws will be obeyed by everyone out of respect and love for HaShem--not because some politician forced them or some zealot said they would kill them. In a way I view it very much like I view the timing of when Yehashua came to earth--He came when it pleased HaShem and the time was right, not when some we here on earth did anything to "make it happen." Same here. Every knee will bow WILLINGLY when HaShem comes and it will be when it pleases HIM, not when we here on earth necessarily do anything to "make it happen." In other words, we are here for His Glory and we wait on Him.

How about if everyone take a breath?

I like what you say here.

You know that before Hitler had power, he was just a powerful speaker trying to gain power and change the laws as he inched towards his goal. Once in power, the tide changed and everyone found out that they should have protested while it was just a concept. HaShem will have every knee bow and His Judaism rule will be a lot different than this 2000 century version that we have today. No man or woman will feel inferior by the dictates of birth or the law. There will be no beheading in His kingdom.

I am not so concerned that the noahides are taking over the world, but that political parties are going to use that same law for their own purposes and think that they are doing the world a favor.

 

[visionary]

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So Sorry... just noticed.. my bad ..forgive me.

 

[JAS4Yeshua]

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This thread has been restored and reopened. Please keep the discussion civil and on-topic.

Thank you for your patience and understanding.



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[visionary]

Let me ask you... what you do if you found out that they are going to go through with the enforcement of the law and everyone [Christian] will be beheaded? Do you nod your head and think that this is a righteous deed to be done or do you see the atrocity of the enforcement or else placed upon your fellow man?

 

[FaithfulWife]

Let me ask you... what you do if you found out that they are going to go through with the enforcement of the law and everyone [Christian] will be beheaded? Do you nod your head and think that this is a righteous deed to be done or do you see the atrocity of the enforcement or else placed upon your fellow man?

I believe as a Believer we have an obligation to have the exact same response if that law were to be enforced against Christians, Muslims or Zen Buddhists. The fact that it would be christian heads rolling is irrelevant in my opinion because our duty is to HaShem alone, and in the instance where a government anywhere enforces such a law, we have a duty to OBEY HaShem not "obey the government."

Here's where I think it goes kaflooey. If some odd sect of christianity decided it was time to lop off the heads of all muslims, should we not obey HaShem and defend them and stand up against our own government in defence of our fellow human beings? How about if it was Buddhists on a rampage (haha! ) lopping off the heads of Jews? See the religious persuasion is not the issue. THE KILLING OF INNOCENTS IS. OUR OBLIGATION (even under the Noahide Laws) IS TO NOT MURDER!

Further, if it is our government that is infringing on the rights of others, our higher obligation is to obey our divine Father not the rulers of men. Yes, there are those who have authority over us--authority as given by HaShem (like my husband is my spiritual head and a rabbi or pastor would be an even higher spiritual authority) but the rulers of men are to be given civil respect as long as they obey the laws of HaShem. If they disobey we are obliged to a higher law.

So vis--to directly answer your question, if Noahides came into our country and convinced GWB and Homeland Security and state troopers to start killing any christian who wouldn't agree to the Noahide Laws, then of course I would fight them! But not because it's a Jewish/Christian "take over" thing but because they would be disobeying the laws of HaShem!



~Faithful

 

[visionary]

I believe as a Believer we have an obligation to have the exact same response if that law were to be enforced against Christians, Muslims or Zen Buddhists. The fact that it would be christian heads rolling is irrelevant in my opinion because our duty is to HaShem alone, and in the instance where a government anywhere enforces such a law, we have a duty to OBEY HaShem not "obey the government."

Here's where I think it goes kaflooey. If some odd sect of christianity decided it was time to lop off the heads of all muslims, should we not obey HaShem and defend them and stand up against our own government in defence of our fellow human beings? How about if it was Buddhists on a rampage (haha! ) lopping off the heads of Jews? See the religious persuasion is not the issue. THE KILLING OF INNOCENTS IS. OUR OBLIGATION (even under the Noahide Laws) IS TO NOT MURDER!

Further, if it is our government that is infringing on the rights of others, our higher obligation is to obey our divine Father not the rulers of men. Yes, there are those who have authority over us--authority as given by HaShem (like my husband is my spiritual head and a rabbi or pastor would be an even higher spiritual authority) but the rulers of men are to be given civil respect as long as they obey the laws of HaShem. If they disobey we are obliged to a higher law.

So vis--to directly answer your question, if Noahides came into our country and convinced GWB and Homeland Security and state troopers to start killing any christian who wouldn't agree to the Noahide Laws, then of course I would fight them! But not because it's a Jewish/Christian "take over" thing but because they would be disobeying the laws of HaShem!



~Faithful

May HaShem bless you pure heart of goodness and love that He has placed in it. May you continue in the walk of love for your fellow man that He has given you. I really appreciate what you have written. It really helps.

 

[Torah613]

Wow, y'all really dont' understand the halacha or the way in which it is applied practically speaking.

Y'all have gotten some really bad information. Jewish courts don't go around killing people, and haven't historically speaking either. There are a few here and there, but not generally speaking. Those who sat on the sanhedrin faced harsh consequences if they meted out the death penalty twice in a lifetime.

When it talks about noachides setting up courts, it means to determine issues of halacha as apply to the noachide community. Of course, if they are in a country without a judicial system Ger Toshavim are obligated to work towards creating a justice system.

The practical application of the various halachic issues to which the Torah ascribes the death penalty are 1. banishment from the community or 2. in the case of homosexual intercourse rolling in snow or ice. These halachot actually only apply to the Jewish community. Only a Karaite would apply the halacha differently, and thats mostly because they aren't practicing Judaism.

So, in a nutshell what you should take away from this post is 1. Noachides and Jews in general don't loose sleep over what goyim believe and do with their beliefs. Not since the judges has there been a time when Jews hunted down non-Jews for believing in a different god or practicing Avodah Zara (which is not idolatry btw). 2. Noachides are not out to get you. They are not going to come into the parking lots of your churches and try to steal your children away from your religious beliefs (as J4J folk do). There will not be a contingent of Jews at the mall waiting to mow chr*stians down with a scimitar.

Y'all really need to get a grip on yourselves. This thread started out using David Duke (grand dragon of the KKK) as its primary source. I mean, Pul leeze! That would be the same as using the Osama Bin Ladin as the primary source on american ideals and values.

so, I must ask, what is your guys' irrational fear of Judaism? This thread makes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion look like childsplay. So, step back, get a grip, and read the following facts about Judaism (of which the noachide movement is a part):

1. Jews and Noachides do not as a rule hate chr*stians (although there might, c"s, be exceptions to this rule).

2. Jews and Noachides aren't planning some super secret takeover of the world.

3. Jews and Noachides both find the guillatine very abhorant as a rule.

I think Rabbi Yishai Fleischer put it best in a speech he gave in Passaic NJ. As background he lives with his wife and children in Bet El, one of the most "dangerous" areas of Israel. he said "I carry a gun. I find guns disgusting and immoral, that something could send a tiny piece of metal at a high velocity and kill another human being. Bezrat Hashem the day will come soon when I can melt it down into a spade." (apologies if i got this quote wrong as I'm going by memory, however this is the jist of it).

Jews and Noachides love life. We do whatever we can to preserve and enhance the quality of life, not just of our own but of everyone. So no, we are not going to execute you for believing in j*sus. Do what you want, we really just don't care all that much.

Of course when the Moshiach comes, all will be made clear.

Yochanan

 

[Torah613]

oh and BTW, your talking about the same guy, GWB, who declared a day (I think it was in january) as "national J*sus Chr*st day." I really don't think even if noachides were out to, chas V'shalom, kill chr*stians, that you would have anything to worry about.

yochanan

 

[visionary]

That isn't the point, it is the attitude... it is the hard stance.. it is the push to have it ingrained in our american society through political measures. It is the heart of the noahide laws themselves. As with any thing, there is the extreme. Those who are today promoting noahide as fact and incorporating it in their environment, whether it is in their own lives, the lives of those they teach, or the political agenda program the rabbi inspired, the danger exists that some extremist will take it literally and put it into practice.

 

[visionary]

According to http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Judaism/Lubavitch_and_Chabad.html:

It [Chabad] has become a world-wide Jewish outreach movement. More than 3,700 emissary couples work in more than 100 countries worldwide. Since 1995, more than 400 shlichim (emissaries) were assigned to new posts and more than 500 new Chabad institution have been established, bringing the total to nearly 2,600 institutions (seminaries, day camps, schools, etc) worldwide. According to headquarters, almost one million children participates in Chabad activities worldwide in 1999.

 

[Torah613]

That isn't the point, it is the attitude... it is the hard stance.. it is the push to have it ingrained in our american society through political measures. It is the heart of the noahide laws themselves. As with any thing, there is the extreme. Those who are today promoting noahide as fact and incorporating it in their environment, whether it is in their own lives, the lives of those they teach, or the political agenda program the rabbi inspired, the danger exists that some extremist will take it literally and put it into practice.

First of all, Chas V'Shalom.

Secondly, you are again blowing this out of proportion. You are still going off of untrue internet rumors. All that is being done is a resolution to honor the late lubavitcher rebbe, just like the days that are declared "national j*sus chr*st day" etc. Where was the cry when our religious rights were being trampled by these declerations? Oh yes none. Because america doesn't care about Jews, doesn't want jews here etc.

Vis, why the fear of Judaism. Why trust David Duke over the source itself?

yochanan

 

[visionary]

Polish Kabbalist Rabbi Schnuer Zalman, founded Chabad, or "Lubavitcher," and wrote the "Tanya" in 1796, the "key" to Jewish mysticism. Seven successor Rabbis followed, the last being Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (A.D. 1902-1994), known simply as the "Rebbe" urged Jews to act as Jews by studying Torah and performing the 613 mitzvos, etc., and for all "Gentiles" to become aware of and honor the Noahide Laws. When enough people have done this, Messiah will come.... that is as important as Christians taking the gospel to the world, so that the end will come.

 

[Torah613]

ok and your point?

Seriously. Chabad is not an outreach organization. It is an In-Reach movement. Chabadniks don't really deal with gentiles, but with Jews--getting them to become more frum. Those 1 million children who attend lubavitcher institutions? all Jews.

Vis, why the irrational fear of Judaism and outright slander against us? I thought y'alls game was to try and be recognized as Jewish?

Yochanan

 

[visionary]

Thou shalt not speak of David Duke on this thread as I will not.. All David Duke comments will be deleted.

 

[Torah613]

Polish Kabbalist Rabbi Schnuer Zalman, founded Chabad, or "Lubavitcher," and wrote the "Tanya" in 1796, the "key" to Jewish mysticism. Seven successor Rabbis followed, the last being Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (A.D. 1902-1994), known simply as the "Rebbe" urged Jews to act as Jews by studying Torah and performing the 613 mitzvos, etc., and for all "Gentiles" to become aware of and honor the Noahide Laws. When enough people have done this, Messiah will come.... that is as important as Christians taking the gospel to the world, so that the end will come.

And the Rebbe held that chr*Stians were fulfilling the noachides laws. Whats your point?

Yochanan

 

[Torah613]

Thou shalt not speak of David Duke on this thread as I will not.. All David Duke comments will be deleted.

yet you were quoting him earlier in the thread.


Yochanan

 

[visionary]

Polish Kabbalist Rabbi Schnuer Zalman, founded Chabad, or "Lubavitcher," and wrote the "Tanya" in 1796, the "key" to Jewish mysticism. Seven successor Rabbis followed, the last being Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson (A.D. 1902-1994), known simply as the "Rebbe" urged Jews to act as Jews by studying Torah and performing the 613 mitzvos, etc., and for all "Gentiles" to become aware of and honor the Noahide Laws. When enough people have done this, Messiah will come.... that is as important as Christians taking the gospel to the world, so that the end will come.

Let me highlight the soul purpose of this movement.... Which points back to the purpose of the thread... How far will hoachide go?

 

[visionary]

The main avodah [spiritual goal] of this generation is to go out to the final war of the golus, to conquer and to purify all the gentile countries (such that 'and kingship will be Hashem's,' Ovadiah 1:21). (Shabbos Parshas VaYelech, 5746)

 

[Torah613]

uhhuh. Yep, just like what the chr*stians mean when they say "we're gunna counquer this country for chr*st." Do you think they are going to take grenades and guns and kill all the people that don't believe like them? Of course not. yet you apply that standard to us, and read Jewish sources, take snippets out of context, and generally don't understand what you are reading.

Yochanan

 

[Torah613]

Let me highlight the soul purpose of this movement.... Which points back to the purpose of the thread... How far will hoachide go?

No the sole purpose of the Noachide movement is to be righteous and worship HaShem.

BTW, it is standard Jewish teaching that we must either merit the coming of Moshiach or he will come when the world is so far gone we cannot survive without him for 1 more minute.

I'm really not understanding your issue here. Not really understanding why you seem to have this irrational fear of Jews and Judaism. I just don't get it. Me thinks you really need to look at this video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7XrRyqses5U

Yochanan