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How does the world-wide flood fit with the crucifixion story?

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Cuddles333

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If it’s your contention that the crucifixion was performed in order to absolve this world of original sin, then what was the world-wide flood for? If you believe there was a world-wide flood done to rid the world of evil and start everyone off with a clean slate, why not just come down and get crucified at that time instead?






Genesis 6:1-13

King James Version (KJV)





1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.



We do not understand the incredible depth of depravity that must have existed in mankind at that time. In (1 Pet.3:20) it tells of how the people then were so hardened that they rejected the preaching of Noah who was even preaching under the operation of the Holy Spirit...the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. God punished them for choosing to do such evil by drowning them.
 
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Faulty

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If it’s your contention that the crucifixion was performed in order to absolve this world of original sin, then what was the world-wide flood for? If you believe there was a world-wide flood done to rid the world of evil and start everyone off with a clean slate, why not just come down and get crucified at that time instead?


God sent His Son at a time He deemed as the perfect time to do so.
But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.
Gal 4:4-5
However, the judging the open sin and rebellion against God in the flood had nothing to do with dealing with original sin. Noah still had his sin nature as evident in his actions after the flood, as well as evident as all of us who are his descendants.

Man still needed a Redeemer. Why the time of the flood wasn't the perfect time for the Father to send the Son? I don't know. Ask Him.
 
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Brenda Morgan

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I'm aware that Jesus was appropriating the flood story to make His own point.

-CryptoLutheran

So what do you think?
Was Jesus telling people a true story about Noah and the Flood?
Or do you think that Jesus was just using a fable to make his point?

If Jesus was just using a fable, then that calls into question all of Jesus' other teachings. Was he being truthful? Or did Jesus make a habit of using fables?

Are you going to be clear and decisive in your answer? Or continue to be ambiguous?

Your Friend,
Brenda
 
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Chris72

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I agree. However, that doesn't make Christianity untrue.

As I tried to explain to you in another post, if I state that the Auburn Tigers are the 2010 BCS National Champions, the fact that I was raised near Auburn and attend their game does not make the statement any less true.

You're entirely missing the point. My point was that religious beliefs are divided along cultural lines, that you are a protestant christian because that was the predominant belief system in the culture you happened to have been raised in.

The BCS championship is a poor analogy. There is really no reasonable debate about who was the 2010 BCS champion. Please note I said "reasonable" so if someone responds back with some nonsense that I have to take it on faith that Auburn won it. There is definitely much disagreement over whether Cam Newton should have been allowed to play, and such disagreements are very much geographic dependent. Living around Auburn, you are probably among those who felt the NCAA acted fairly but many others disagree. There is no definitive authority on the matter as to whether the decision was appropriate or not, and thus it remains a point of debate, divided loosely along cultural lines (i.e. Auburn fan or not).

So if you trying to make an analogy to religion, the 2010 BCS championship winner would not be comparable, as it is universally accepted (even if everyone doesnt like it) despite what "culture" you happened to live in. Christianity is absolutely unequivocably NOT universally accepted across cultures of different times/places. THAT is the point I was making.

Differences of opinions CAN occur on things we can never fully resolve, due to the lack of an undisputed authority, such as whether Auburn should have been allowed to play for the national championship, and this would analogous to religion. If you choose to explain away what you dont understand using supernatural beings, then which supernatural beings you choose is dependent upon the culture you were raised in, both in time and place.

I haven't seen any evidence that He reveals Himself to anyone in any particular geographic area any more than another.

Are you joking? You think that religious beliefs are distributed uniformly throughout the world? That the same proportion of Muslims/Jews/Hindis/Mormons/Baptists/Catholics/Presbyterians/Wiccans/etc exists no matter where you go throughout the world? In whatever time period in mankind's history?

I am going to go ahead and assume you mean that such a god "reveals" himself to everyone but only some "accept" it somehow?

But doesnt it strike you as a tad bit odd that those who "accept" such revelation are so heterogeneous in their distribution, both in time and place? Doesnt that kind of sort of hint at the possibility that these are nothing more than cultural superstitions? With no more merit than the cultural superstitions of those in, say, Egypt of 3000 years ago?
 
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Chris72

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Genesis 6:1-13

King James Version (KJV)





1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.



We do not understand the incredible depth of depravity that must have existed in mankind at that time. In (1 Pet.3:20) it tells of how the people then were so hardened that they rejected the preaching of Noah who was even preaching under the operation of the Holy Spirit...the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. God punished them for choosing to do such evil by drowning them.

So, again, why not do the crufixion at that time instead of the flood?
 
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Chris72

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Man still needed a Redeemer. Why the time of the flood wasn't the perfect time for the Father to send the Son? I don't know. Ask Him.

It makes no sense whatsoever. That was my point. I dont believe such a god exists, why would I ask an imaginary being why he did something I dont believe even happened?

By asking questions such as this, I am hoping to impress upon you the absurdity of such beliefs. You can keep brushing them off with comments such as "I dont know, ask him" or more commonly "his ways are just beyond us", but hopefully you will start to realize little by little that it is all just a myth. No different than the mythology of other cultures throughout mankind's history.
 
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Eric Hilbert

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You're entirely missing the point. My point was that religious beliefs are divided along cultural lines, that you are a protestant christian because that was the predominant belief system in the culture you happened to have been raised in.

Actually, I wasn't raised in a Christian environment at all.

The BCS championship is a poor analogy. There is really no reasonable debate about who was the 2010 BCS champion.

My point, exactly. And nobody is disputing it based on where I was born because they know that has no bearing on the facts.

Are you joking? You think that religious beliefs are distributed uniformly throughout the world?

No, of course not. But you didn't say that religious beliefs are distributed equally. You said that God doesn't reveal Himself equally and I don't see any evidence that God reveals Himself any more in one geographic location than another.

But doesnt it strike you as a tad bit odd that those who "accept" such revelation are so heterogeneous in their distribution, both in time and place?

I don't know what you mean by "accept revelation". That sounds more gnostic than anything Christianity teaches.
 
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Chris72

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Actually, I wasn't raised in a Christian environment at all.

If you were raised near Auburn, you very much were raised in a christian environment. Maybe not your parents but certainly those in the community around you.

My point, exactly. And nobody is disputing it based on where I was born because they know that has no bearing on the facts.

Please re-read my post. You entirely missed the point. No form of religion represents a universally accepted truth, as evidenced by the differences along cultural lines. I am going to assume other readers here understood what I was saying.

No, of course not. But you didn't say that religious beliefs are distributed equally. You said that God doesn't reveal Himself equally and I don't see any evidence that God reveals Himself any more in one geographic location than another.

I dont believe god "reveals" himself to anyone anywhere or anytime, I dont believe he even exists. I was referring of course to the belief that such a god reveals himself, that if you believe that, that you must agree that he does so in a very heterogeneous and patchy manner.

Is it seriously your contention that religious beliefs are uniformly distribute throughout the world, no matter time or place? Either you 1) have done no traveling outside of your town whatsoever, 2) have no understanding whatsoever of world history, or most likely, 3) are in a profound state of denial.

I don't know what you mean by "accept revelation". That sounds more gnostic than anything Christianity teaches.

Otherwise, I dont know how to make sense of your comments. Because you cant seriously believe that world religions are uniform across time and place.
 
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Eric Hilbert

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If you were raised near Auburn, you very much were raised in a christian environment. Maybe not your parents but certainly those in the community around you.

I'm afraid not.

I dont believe god "reveals" himself to anyone anywhere or anytime

Then your claim is moot.

Is it seriously your contention that religious beliefs are uniformly distribute throughout the world, no matter time or place?

For the second time, no, I never said that.

Either you 1) have done no traveling outside of your town whatsoever, 2) have no understanding whatsoever of world history, or most likely, 3) are in a profound state of denial.

Sorry you feel that way. Maybe one day, you'll be able to post without having to resort to ad homs.

Otherwise, I dont know how to make sense of your comments. Because you cant seriously believe that world religions are uniform across time and place.

For the third time, I don't believe it and have never said it.
 
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Chris72

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I'm afraid not.

Auburn lies very much in the bible-belt. There's no way around that. Whether or not your immediate family is christian isn't the point. The culture around you is predominantly christian, and among those who are christian, it is predominantly protestant.

Denying that is as silly as denying that the culture around had nothing to do with the language you speak. I am sure you could find someone in your town who had parents who spoke spanish. But if you are going to claim that Auburn is not a predominantly english-speaking place and that that had no influence on whether that particular person ended up being able to speak english is insanity.

Again, religion, like language, like art, like music, like patterns of dress, etc etc etc, is a product of the culture around you.

Then your claim is moot.

It's not moot at all. I am pointing out that religious beliefs follow along cultural lines. That they are superstitions. I use the term "reveals himself" because that seems to be the going belief around here. I gather this because multiple times I have been told now that no one can here can convince me of such a god's existence, that this god himself would have to reveal himself to me.

So it's either one of two things (unless you can give me a third option) that you must believe if you believe in such a god. Either such a god reveals himself in a very heterogeneous patchy distribution. Or he reveals himself to everyone across time and place, but those who accept it or "get it" are distributed in such a manner.

For the second time, no, I never said that.

Well, are you saying that his revelation is distributed uniformly, but those who "get it", so to speak, are distributed so unevenly? I'm not trying to be combative, I am trying to understand what explanation you have for this phenomenon.

Sorry you feel that way. Maybe one day, you'll be able to post without having to resort to ad homs.

For the third time, I don't believe it and have never said it.

Clarify for me why you think religious beliefs are distributed the way they are, both in terms of time and place, and we can go from there.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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So what do you think?
Was Jesus telling people a true story about Noah and the Flood?
Or do you think that Jesus was just using a fable to make his point?

If Jesus was just using a fable, then that calls into question all of Jesus' other teachings. Was he being truthful? Or did Jesus make a habit of using fables?

Are you going to be clear and decisive in your answer? Or continue to be ambiguous?

Your Friend,
Brenda

I'm saying that for Jesus' teaching purposes the historicity of the Flood story is irrelevant.

This is the same Jesus who taught in parables--teaching stories; Jesus' appropriation of the Flood story was parabolic in nature, it was for the purpose of teaching. Whether or not that story happened in history has no bearing whatsoever on what Jesus was talking about, all that's necessary is for His hearers to understand what He was trying to teach them.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Brenda Morgan

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I'm saying that for Jesus' teaching purposes the historicity of the Flood story is irrelevant.

This is the same Jesus who taught in parables--teaching stories; Jesus' appropriation of the Flood story was parabolic in nature, it was for the purpose of teaching. Whether or not that story happened in history has no bearing whatsoever on what Jesus was talking about, all that's necessary is for His hearers to understand what He was trying to teach them.

-CryptoLutheran

If Christians believe as you do then we don't know what is real and what is make believe.
 
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razeontherock

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So, again, why not do the crufixion at that time instead of the flood?

I think this is a legitimate question that gets to the heart of the thread. Is
G-d not allowed to have His own time table? Is He not allowed to decide how things will be revealed, and accomplished, "in the fullness of time?"

We see every step of what the Bible shows us re: our way to approach Him, all laid out for us beautifully. And repeatedly. He never violates His own precepts, and this is what I mean when i say the Bible has no contradictions.

Your curiosity won't be satisfied until you know what place the flood has in that. So the question becomes, are you prepared to make the effort to understand all of what's involved? It takes a driving passion, it takes endurance, and it must become a priority.
 
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CryptoLutheran

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If Christians believe as you do then we don't know what is real and what is make believe.

So, then we'd have to rely on faith in order to trust in Christ?

But in all seriousness, all this means is that we have to seriously engage the biblical texts and do so critically and reverently. Personally I think Holy Scripture is deserving to be taken seriously enough that we'd do this, and that we honor God enough that we don't treat our faith with kid gloves.

I take the Bible very seriously, I take the Gospel very seriously, I take my faith in Jesus very seriously, I take Christianity very seriously; which is precisely why I'm not a Young Earth Creationist.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Chris72

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I think this is a legitimate question that gets to the heart of the thread. Is
G-d not allowed to have His own time table? Is He not allowed to decide how things will be revealed, and accomplished, "in the fullness of time?"

My assertion is that such a being doesn't exist. When I point out that something doesn't make sense I do so questioning whether or not that something really took place at all.

Again, ask yourself why you believe what you did in the first place, don't just give up and say to yourself "must be beyond me somehow". If someone pointed out to you that the sun is really a guy in a golden chariot riding across the sky, would you take that at face value despite what we know now of astronomy and physics? Why not? Had you lived in Athens 2500 years ago you certainly would have felt that way. Why is your belief system more valid than theirs? THAT is what I am getting at.

We see every step of what the Bible shows us re: our way to approach Him, all laid out for us beautifully. And repeatedly. He never violates His own precepts, and this is what I mean when i say the Bible has no contradictions.

The bible repeatedly contradicts itself. And the god in the story frequently violates his own precepts. If you confront every contradiction with the attitude of "his ways are just beyond me somehow", then of course it comes out perfect. You cant lose with that logic. The problem is that you could just as easily explain away the problems with any other belief system the same way.

Your curiosity won't be satisfied until you know what place the flood has in that. So the question becomes, are you prepared to make the effort to understand all of what's involved? It takes a driving passion, it takes endurance, and it must become a priority.

Again, the thrust should be asking yourself "why is that I believe what I do?" not trying to fit pieces together that dont fit.

If your belief is different than other cultural beliefs in gods, explain to me how. Why do your beliefs carry more weight than those of people living in the Andes mountains 600 years ago? Or of those living in China 2000 years ago? Or of modern day scientologists?
 
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razeontherock

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My assertion is that such a being doesn't exist. When I point out that something doesn't make sense I do so questioning whether or not that something really took place at all.

Again, ask yourself why you believe what you did in the first place, don't just give up and say to yourself "must be beyond me somehow". If someone pointed out to you that the sun is really a guy in a golden chariot riding across the sky, would you take that at face value despite what we know now of astronomy and physics? Why not? Had you lived in Athens 2500 years ago you certainly would have felt that way. Why is your belief system more valid than theirs? THAT is what I am getting at.

Sorry but in Athens 2500 years ago I would've no more swallowed what somebody wanted to spoon-feed me any more than I have in this life. I settled my convictions 25 years ago after many years of agonizing. I know exactly why I believe what I believe, and it is no way related to what you condescendingly suggest here.

The bible repeatedly contradicts itself.

Sorry, but no. You can dig up trite little oddities due to changing times and money values, but nothing significant. Haven't i already challenged you to have some integrity about this, or was that someone else? You have years of hard work ahead of you before I let you slip by with a comment like that.

If you confront every contradiction with the attitude of "his ways are just beyond me somehow", then of course it comes out perfect.

Strawman.
 
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Chris72

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Sorry but in Athens 2500 years ago I would've no more swallowed what somebody wanted to spoon-feed me any more than I have in this life. I settled my convictions 25 years ago after many years of agonizing. I know exactly why I believe what I believe, and it is no way related to what you condescendingly suggest here.

Then explain to me why your beliefs are more valid than those of the ancient greeks. Why should one believe in the god of the ancient hebrews any more than the gods of any culture?

Sorry, but no. You can dig up trite little oddities due to changing times and money values, but nothing significant. Haven't i already challenged you to have some integrity about this, or was that someone else? You have years of hard work ahead of you before I let you slip by with a comment like that.

The bible is absolutely FULL of significant errors, contradictions, and logical fallacies! No, you havent challenged me with regards to this to my recollection, since I would have responded. Such errors/contradictions run the gamut from directly stating the blatantly untrue (rabbits eating their own cud, bats listed as birds, earth described as flat on multiple occasions, etc etc), to the inconsistencies (differences in the order of creation, different accounts of finding the empty tomb, differences in how Judas died, differences in Jesus's geneology, etc etc etc), to engineering impossibilities, to such a being violating his own precepts (he directly calls himself "jealous" while making it a commandment not to covet another's wife/ox, supposedly is just but punishes the kids, grandkids, even great-grandkids for making graven images of him, supposedly omniscient but doesnt think to create a female to later in the game, etc etc etc) to absolute absurdities in logic.

This thread we are in was started to highlight one such logical absurdity. And, again, the answer of:
Is G-d not allowed to have His own time table? Is He not allowed to decide how things will be revealed, and accomplished, "in the fullness of time?"

Isn't an answer, it's a cop-out. The fact that you are resolved to essentially "he's gonna show us why someday" means you dont have an answer, that you have given up on thinking about it.

There are whole websites devoted to pointing out biblical errors/contradictions/absurdities. My examples above by no means were meant to be comprehensive.

If you have struggled with your process, it is because you are trying to put a square peg in a round hole. What you should be doing is putting the peg down and finding another one that fits, not trying and trying to jam the wrong one in!

Strawman.

It's not a strawman. Saying that such a god will just reveal himself to us someday is ignoring the question. It is the same as saying "his ways are just beyond me". So it is not a strawman.
 
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razeontherock

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Then explain to me why your beliefs are more valid than those of the ancient greeks. Why should one believe in the god of the ancient hebrews any more than the gods of any culture?

Again, this is a red herring. I make no such comparison. I know the True and Living God, not some ancient dusty second-hand info. I know He has spoken to our species in all times, and everywhere. I can not and will not comment on an individual from a time and place far removed from my own.

The bible is absolutely FULL of significant errors, contradictions, and logical fallacies! Such errors/contradictions run the gamut from directly stating the blatantly untrue (rabbits eating their own cud,

Rabbits digest everything twice. While this is gross, they eat their own feces, and on the second pass through they don't. They are able to differentiate between the 2. Ancient Hebrew translated as "cud" was likely not at all an error, but a decision to leave out that gory detail. Yet Hebrew is difficult to the point that it could have also been a translation problem. None of that = an error, nor is it significant.

bats listed as birds,

If this were 10th grade biology this might be significant, but otherwise pffft. Dude, they FLY. You have no point.

earth described as flat on multiple occasions

Where? You have no idea of the context, and your statement has no integrity. We are not dissecting biological, geographical, nor astronomical text. You are likely looking at a section of poetry, for cryin' out loud! And yet in other sections earth is described as a sphere, but of course you choose to overlook that ...

One must take the whole of Scripture before concluding anything. So far it appears you cannot do that, on any topic.

differences in the order of creation

Which content you do not understand, otherwise you wouldn't cite this. There is a difference between created and made, as the text plainly reveals. Seems you merely collect info from websites w/o discretion, rather than applying yourself to the text and making up your own mind.

different accounts of finding the empty tomb

You really want show your integrity with this?!? Come into my lair, said the spider to the fly ^_^ Start a thread about this, titled something clear. Any 10 posters on CF can address this. There is such a thing as a low quality response, and my hunch is maybe 3 out of 10 might be that. We also have some ANE researchers and Bible translators, and we might be lucky enough to get some of their insights. Pursue this!

differences in how Judas died

You really haven't thought about any of this, have you? I'll give you a break, some things really do require Divine revelation, but not this! He hung himself, just like it says. Not being a professional hangman he did a rather sloppy job, fell either before, during or after his death, and took a nasty fall that ruptured his guts. There are cliffs all over the area, no tall trees, he wasn't a carpenter, nor particularly industrious. Where would he hang himself but off a low branch on the side of a cliff?

differences in Jesus's geneology

Paternal vs maternal. Both are significant! (Jesus was a Jew, remember. Oh wait, you don't even know why that matters? Then studying these genealogies is definitely for you!)

engineering impossibilities

^_^ This I gotta hear. I'm sure it's old, tired, and been refuted 1000's of times before, but just so I know how far you're willing to ignore the text to make a point ...

to such a being violating his own precepts

Now HERE's a concept! You're so cute, thinking G-d will answer to YOU ^_^
Will He bribe you to keep His offense secret? Will He solemnly accept the punishment you dish out?

Apparently it is beyond your comprehension that the precepts to which you refer were for a specific people, in a specific place, for a specific time, and for a specific purpose? And they were never intended to further limit Himself?

You say you want to address what you [falsely] perceive to be a logical absurdity. Why must you overlook the bulk of my statement so you can say
Isn't an answer, it's a cop-out. The fact that you are resolved to essentially "he's gonna show us why someday" means you dont have an answer, that you have given up on thinking about it.

Here's what you overlook:

"We see every step of what the Bible shows us re: our way to approach Him, all laid out for us beautifully." Which happens to be (a very short form of) your answer, which was in the very next sentence after what you quoted! Now if you have any integrity at all, you have some homework to do before you can pretend there is any cop-out:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7478962/

Let me know when you've digested all that, so you're prepared to speak intelligently on the subject.

There are whole websites devoted to pointing out biblical errors/contradictions/absurdities.

Yes, I already pointed out you do not speak from your own intellect, but merely regurgitate what others spoon-feed. You try to pass that off as integrity? :sick:

If you have struggled with your process, it is because you are trying to put a square peg in a round hole. What you should be doing is putting the peg down and finding another one that fits, not trying and trying to jam the wrong one in!

Hypocrite! When were you born? Repeatedly you have pretended I don't know why I believe what I believe, and feigned to "counsel me" to think it through. And here you reprimand me for doing that very thing?!?

Why I outta ... [/Popeye]

It's not a strawman. Saying that such a god will just reveal himself to us someday is ignoring the question. It is the same as saying "his ways are just beyond me". So it is not a strawman.

Ok, so you don't know what a strawman is. I'll slow down the pace for you. Acting the way you depict in this last quote I snipped is not what I do, not what I have done to arrive at my convictions, and not contained in my responses to you. Which is, you know, how and why you could be expected to respond with more integrity than that. Comprende?
 
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Brenda Morgan

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It seems I remember someone mentioning "progressive revelation" on this thread.

Here is one of the last verses in the Bible.

Revelation 22:12

King James Version (KJV)


12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


Faith or works?
 
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Criada

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