How does the Reformed view defend against these scriptures?

[sdowney717]

You assume two things, it seems. That God has only wrath towards those He destroys, and that hell is for eternal torture.

God is working His plan, and His plan is perfect. We don't understand the plan from earth, even though we get a glimpse of it. But we see that it includes the existence of unsaved people.

When God is destroying unsaved people, He is destroying them with wrath (and other complimentary attributes), but that's not necessarily the only way He relates to them. You, a human, cannot have more empathy towards people you don't like than God. I don't know how God, in totality, relates to the unsaved, but I think it's not only one complimentary group of attributes. He does destroy them, but first and foremost, He does it because it's part of His perfect plan, predetermined before the foundation of the earth, not because He hates them.

There is a line in John 13, when Jesus announces that one of the apostles is going to betray Him: "Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me." (John 13:21)

Why was Jesus troubled in spirit?

Some say it's because He is saddened that one of the apostles is going to betray Him. But this verse was right after Jesus washed the feet of all apostles, acting in ultimate non-selfcentered way. And, at the same time, Jesus is the Son of God.

So I don't think that Jesus was feeling sorry for Himself about being betrayed. I think Jesus was saddened because He knows that Judah is a vessel for destruction. That Judah, a man, has no say in his destiny, which is to be destroyed. Jesus knows that in a few moments satan is going to come into Judah, on a mark from Jesus Himself (John 13:26-27), and take over fully, so that what's needed to be done gets done as predetermined. And I think He is saddened about it. He is saddened about predetermined destiny of Judah. (Note that when Jesus talks to Judah in John 13:27, He is in fact directly giving order to satan, who entered Judah at that moment.)

At the same time, although it saddens Jesus, who is God, Judah's destiny is part of God's pefect plan, so it's to be done.

That's how I see it.

As for hell, it takes a dedicated study to have a position on the nature of it, just like for most issues in the Bible. Based upon what I've studied so far about it, my conclusion is that hell is not eternal torture. There is torment, but it ultimately ends and unsaved person is destroyed completely. Anyway, just like other issues, it's certainly not something you can take verse here or there and conclude what it is.

Your approaching this thinking of Christ's divinity, but there is also Christ the man here.
Imagine being at once both God and man, and knowing that with the betrayal follows the crucifixion and suffering.

Something that does not get much discussion is Christ's humanness.

Example
Hebrews 5:6-8New King James Version (NKJV)
6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

 

[HenryM]

Your approaching this thinking of Christ's divinity, but there is also Christ the man here.
Imagine being at once both God and man, and knowing that with the betrayal follows the crucifixion and suffering.

Something that does not get much discussion is Christ's humanness.

Example
Hebrews 5:6-8New King James Version (NKJV)
6 As He also says in another place:

“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek”;

7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear, 8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.

Yes, I agree. And John 13:21 can certainly be multiple things simultaneously. I can see three viable things occuring together at that same one moment.

In my opinion, the understanding I described in previous post is primary one, or first, about that very moment, because of what immediately precedes and follows it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You assume two things, it seems. That God has only wrath towards those He destroys, and that hell is for eternal torture.

God is working His plan, and His plan is perfect. We don't understand the plan from earth, even though we get a glimpse of it. But we see that it includes the existence of unsaved people.

When God is destroying unsaved people, He is destroying them with wrath (and other complimentary attributes), but that's not necessarily the only way He relates to them. You, a human, cannot have more empathy towards people you don't like than God. I don't know how God, in totality, relates to the unsaved, but I think it's not only one complimentary group of attributes. He does destroy them, but first and foremost, He does it because it's part of His perfect plan, predetermined before the foundation of the earth, not because He hates them.

There is a line in John 13, when Jesus announces that one of the apostles is going to betray Him: "Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, Very truly I tell you, one of you is going to betray me." (John 13:21)

Why was Jesus troubled in spirit?

Some say it's because He is saddened that one of the apostles is going to betray Him. But this verse was right after Jesus washed the feet of all apostles, acting in ultimate non-selfcentered way. And, at the same time, Jesus is the Son of God.

So I don't think that Jesus was feeling sorry for Himself about being betrayed. I think Jesus was saddened because He knows that Judah is a vessel for destruction. That Judah, a man, has no say in his destiny, which is to be destroyed. Jesus knows that in a few moments satan is going to come into Judah, on mark from Jesus Himself (John 13:26-27), and take over fully, so that what's needed to be done gets done as predetermined. And I think He is saddened about it. He is saddened about predetermined destiny of Judah. (Note that when Jesus talks to Judah in John 13:27, He is in fact directly giving order to satan, who entered Judah at that moment.)

At the same time, although it saddens Jesus, who is God, Judah's destiny is part of God's pefect plan, so it's to be done.

That's how I see it.

As for hell, it takes a dedicated study to have a position on the nature of it, just like for most issues in the Bible. Based upon what I've studied so far about it, my conclusion is that hell is not eternal torture. There is torment, but it ultimately ends and unsaved person is destroyed completely. Anyway, just like other issues, it's certainly not something you can take verse here or there and conclude what it is.

Why would God be saddened about a choice He predetermined for somebody?
That makes no sense.
That would be like creating a robot and programming it to kill and then placing that robot on trial for it's crimes and then being sad about it.
Such a thing would be illogical.
One can only be sad if the creation (man) is doing something contrary to what God desires of them.

Jesus desired Israel Jerusalem to be saved, but they would not allow such a thing to happen.
For Jesus says,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).


...

 

[HenryM]

Why would God be saddened about a choice He predetermined for somebody? That makes no sense. That would be like creating a robot and programming it to kill and then placing that robot on trial for it's crimes and then being sad about it. Such a thing would be illogical...

Maybe makes no sense to you. Does everything God does has to be clear to everybody? And people are not robots, but conscious beings.

 

[HenryM]

...how would you reconcile Romans 9:22 with Love when it has to do with creating vessels to endure His wrath for eternity? God is love, after all, so why do such a thing?

Why are you agreeing with statement: "Why would God be saddened about a choice He predetermined for somebody?..."

You think you are higher that God, in your empathy to others, when you publicly question God sending predetermined unsaved people to hell?

 

[friend of]

You think you are higher that God, in your empathy to others, when you publicly question God sending predetermined unsaved people to hell?

There's really no need for accusations here, HenryM.

 

[friend of]

And people are not robots, but conscious beings.

Then why do some people insist we have no free will?

 

[HenryM]

There's really no need for accusations here, HenryM.

Fair enough, and at the same time, I didn't really accuse you, I asked you, since I don't know what's your stance. On this site there are people of all variety of persuasions and convictions.

When one publicly questions God's wrath on unsaved people, presenting his or her own righteousness to the world, it's good to step back and ask a question: "Hey, is it possible that a man can have more empathy towards other human beings, even bad ones, than God Himself?" I think it is not possible. And with that conclusion, you work your way to understanding the issue.

Then why do some people insist we have no free will?

I also believe we have no free will, in generally accepted sense. I believe in predestination, as I see it revealed in the Bible. Consciousness is not equal to free will.

 

[friend of]

On this site there are people of all variety of persuasions and convictions

I also believe we have no free will, in generally accepted sense. I believe in predestination, as I see it revealed in the Bible. Consciousness is not equal to free will

Right, and this is the view I'm investigating. I've yet to meet someone on this site who rejects free will and understands the implication such a denial would have on the very essence of what Faith is (belief in things unseen). If it is predetermined who will be given Faith by God in every circumstance, then how does that honor God? What's more, why bother creating humanity to worship you in the first place if they only have Faith because you've determined them to have it? That is literally the robot scenario.

 

[HenryM]

If it is predetermined who will be given Faith by God in every circumstance, then how does that honor God? What's more, why bother creating humanity to worship you in the first place if they only have Faith because you've determined them to have it? That is literally the robot scenario.

You presume that this life is end all within God's plan. As I see it, this life (whole 6.000 years of life on earth) is preparation for something else. This is incubator stage, so to speak. What baby in mother's womb is for an adult, that's this life for eternal life in presence of God.

So, if that's the case, and I think it is, what does it matter if you are guided through this life? You are being prepared for eternity with God. If we don't have "free will" here, it doesn't mean we won't have it there. Baby is severely limited in mother's womb, in comparison to what human being can do after being born, and maybe (probably, I'd say), we are severely limited here, in contrast to what awaits on the other side.

 

[Albion]

Why would God be saddened about a choice He predetermined for somebody?
That makes no sense.
That would be like creating a robot and programming it to kill and then placing that robot on trial for it's crimes and then being sad about it.
Such a thing would be illogical.

In that scenario, probably so. But it's not a correct analogy. There is no suggestion of the Creator programming his creation to do wrong.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In that scenario, probably so. But it's not a correct analogy. There is no suggestion of the Creator programming his creation to do wrong.

My point exactly, which means God did not pre-ordain some to be damned and others to be saved. Yes, God is aware of our future free will choices, even from the foundation of the world. For God knows what kind of breakfast I will have tomorrow. All my hairs on my head are numbered and all my steps have been counted. There is nothing God does not know. But knowing something and declaring that knowledge ahead of time is not the same as saying God predetermines our choices and forces some to be saved and others to be damned. That is what Calvinism proposes. Unless you think Calvinism is different than that; If so, then you need to explain what Calvinism means (in a nutshell) to the rest of us who are simple minded.


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[Albion]

My point exactly, which means God did not pre-ordain some to be damned and others to be saved.

? I don't see how the analogy, if corrected, would show that to be the case.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Maybe makes no sense to you. Does everything God does has to be clear to everybody? And people are not robots, but conscious beings.

So your basically saying God's ways are not knowable in regards to Calvinism?

Also, how does the person being a conscious being change the scenario I put forth? Does man have free will and a conscience to determine his fate of doing either good or evil, or does God force some people to be a certain way? Is God the one who ultimately determines who is saved and not saved? Or can a person choose of their own free will as a part of God's drawing to either accept Him or reject Him? Jesus said to Jerusalem,

““O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.” (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

In other words, Jesus desires Jerusalem to be saved, but they would not allow it.


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[Bible Highlighter]

? I don't see how the analogy, if corrected, would show that to be the case.

How so?


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[Bible Highlighter]

? I don't see how the analogy, if corrected, would show that to be the case.

Explain.


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[Albion]

Well, your analogy had the creation/robot programmed to kill. That's not Reformed teaching.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well, your analogy had the creation/robot programmed to kill. That's not Reformed teaching.

So then how does the wicked end up being wicked? Was it their choice ultimately or God's choice ultimately to be wicked? Can God save them and yet He chooses not to?


...

 

[friend of]

This is incubator stage, so to speak

Yeah, a similar thought has crossed my mind before. Not sure how scripturally backed this position is though.

Creator programming his creation to do wrong

If by "doing wrong" you can substitute "rejecting creator" then yes, that's exactly what Calvinistic predetermination states. It states God chooses who will have Faith and who won't and man has nothing to do with Faith as God decides if man will ultimately embrace Him or not.

 

[Albion]

So then how does the wicked end up being wicked?

That's a consequence of the sin of our first parents.

Was it their choice ultimately or God's choice ultimately to be wicked?

Human nature AS AFFECTED BY SIN. God did not create Mankind this way.

Can God save them and yet He chooses not to?

So, is that a plea on behalf of Universalism??